Some Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 75 Image Samples

hi All,

For those interested: I have uploaded some images taken with the Sinar Hy6 camera together with the eMotion 75 digital back (33 MPx) and the Schneider AFD 2.8/80mm:

The files can be dowloaded from "yousendit.com" under following links:

http://download.yousendit.com/E3B3DFAE4152524E
http://download.yousendit.com/D4D6870C5F9C5420
http://download.yousendit.com/0614ACED1D31F627
http://download.yousendit.com/E38EBB150F5FD4CD
http://download.yousendit.com/F8634BAF77AACA75

There are 2 JPGs with Quality 12:

- Sandra_0050.jpg (20% crop from Raw = approx. 26 MPx)
- Sandra_0041_Crop50%.jpg (crop 1/2 Raw = approx. 17 Mpx)

There is the TIFF from "Sandra_0050" (20% crop from Raw = approx. 26 MPx):

- Sandra_0050.tif

Those 3 images have been slightly color corrected and USM.

There are 2 other JPGs with Quality 5:

- Jennifer_blue bag.jpg
- Jennifer_green-bag.jpg

These samples are for evaluation purposes only - no further use allowed.
They are available for download for 7 days as per now and/or 100 downloads.

All images taken by Kaisern Chen, Bangkok.

All the best,
Thierry

Thanks Thierry,

You have done a good job! I wonder whether Kaisern might come to OPF and be willing to be thanked in person! I'd also like to learn about the lighting used and how he likes to process the images.

I hope we see a lot of discussion!

Asher

Dear Asher,

I will, but am not sure if Kaisern will find the time: he is so busy all the time.

As for the light used, it is very simple: a Broncolor para in front of the model and shot staright in front of this para. This can be seen in her eyes, in which both the para and Kaisern are reflected!

Post production is done by Kaisern's retoucher(s) most of the time.

Best regards,
Thierry

Asher Kelman said:

Thanks Thierry,

You have done a good job! I wonder whether Kaisern might come to OPF and be willing to be thanked in person! I'd also like to learn about the lighting used and how he likes to process the images.

I hope we see a lot of discussion!

Asher

Click to expand...

Who will be the first to comment?

Asher

What comment can I make?

At the price of the camera, lens, back it should be good. So, put it in a studio, with an expert photographer and possibly processed by an expert processor, I would not expect anything but a good result. There is no information given wrt exposure, etc. so the whole thing could be heavily pp'd, or not.

The studio situation does not stretch the capabilities of anything, so, what is there to say? What do I compare it with? What alternatives are there? Give a Canon system at a quarter the price the same test, then maybe you can decide if it's worth the money.

Best wishes,

Ray

I just downloaded the large TIFF file, and it's not telling me much. It seems intentionally a bit overexposed, which is an effective look for this kind of shot, but it's like it's trying to imitate something like a cross-processed or heavily pushed slide film look, so it's probably not revealing what the back is capable of. Grain is also part of that look, so maybe these are images that would be more effective shot in 35mm with a film like Provia 400X pushed two stops.

There is a lot of detail in the skin and the hair, but maybe it's too much. I look at this and think "she has furry skin and could use some dental work." Shorter DOF would be more flattering, and I'm not sure you can get it short enough at f:2.8 with an 80mm lens and a 48x36mm sensor (DOF at a subject distance of 6 feet at f:2.8 will be around 4" or 100mm).

Thanks Ray, for the very useful comments!

May be you are not well aware about what "stretches" what in a studio, but look at the highlights and the skin tones, then go to the shadows.

Exposure was 1/250th at f8.

If you read my post, you would see that it was made by a professional recognized in the whole Asia (Kaisern Chen, in Bangkok) and who shoots P45 as well as H3D 39. You can read his comments about the Hy6 and the eMotion 75 on the LL Forum, after he did use the camera and back under studio conditions.

As for PP, it is not my habit to lie and you should also read what I have written about PP. It has been color corrected and USM applied.

It was my intention to post some image samples since asked for so long by Asher. I did neither mean this to be compared (again: read, it was meant for evaluation). But if it brings such useless comments and full of negatives and "blame", I will avoid it from now on.

Best regards,
Thierry

Ray West said:

What comment can I make?

At the price of the camera, lens, back it should be good. So, put it in a studio, with an expert photographer and possibly processed by an expert processor, I would not expect anything but a good result. There is no information given wrt exposure, etc. so the whole thing could be heavily pp'd, or not.

The studio situation does not stretch the capabilities of anything, so, what is there to say? What do I compare it with? What alternatives are there? Give a Canon system at a quarter the price the same test, then maybe you can decide if it's worth the money.

Best wishes,

Ray

Click to expand...

David,

the model Sandra is a beginner in the field and Kaisern did these few shots for me, with my Hy6 and my eMotion 75, and at the same time did some images for her book. It was not a contracted work in it.

The Jennifer model have been shots for commercial use.

This being said: yes, the images have been slightly overexposed, intentionally, like it is the "trend" here in Asia. ISO setting was 200, to get this little grainy look. No other PP than color correction and slight USM applied.

Shooting distance was not 6 feet, but closer to 12 for the Sandra images: that's why I have chosen these images to put here, to show the crop capability. The TIF you have downloaded is cropped by at least 20 to 25%, and as such using 25 - 26 MPx of the 33 available. The reason why it was cropped (respectively why the subject did not fill the format) was intentional: to check the moiré which occurs on Jeans (or in hairs) at exactly this reproduction scale.

Again: it was not my intention to upload these images for any comparison with other backs, or what the back can do in extreme situations. I have been asked to provide some images shot with the Hy6, as soon as available, which I did with this intention, showing some nice skin tones with a nice modulation, without any burn-outs, nice details in the shadows, and sharp, shot at optimal f-stop for the lens (to show its capability)

If we want starting to compare, then I am well aware of what has to be shot and which kind of setup to use. But then we have to use different backs from different manufacturers on the same camera/lens configuration. But this is another subject.

Best regards,
Thierry

David A. Goldfarb said:

I just downloaded the large TIFF file, and it's not telling me much. It seems intentionally a bit overexposed, which is an effective look for this kind of shot, but it's like it's trying to imitate something like a cross-processed or heavily pushed slide film look, so it's probably not revealing what the back is capable of. Grain is also part of that look, so maybe these are images that would be more effective shot in 35mm with a film like Provia 400X pushed two stops.

There is a lot of detail in the skin and the hair, but maybe it's too much. I look at this and think "she has furry skin and could use some dental work." Shorter DOF would be more flattering, and I'm not sure you can get it short enough at f:2.8 with an 80mm lens and a 48x36mm sensor (DOF at a subject distance of 6 feet at f:2.8 will be around 4" or 100mm).

Click to expand...

Ray West said:

What comment can I make?

At the price of the camera, lens, back it should be good. So, put it in a studio, with an expert photographer and possibly processed by an expert processor, I would not expect anything but a good result. There is no information given wrt exposure, etc. so the whole thing could be heavily pp'd, or not.

Click to expand...

Ray,

Let me point out that Thierry had clearly stated "Those 3 images have been slightly color corrected and USM." So speculation that "whole thing could be heavily pp'd, or not." is stranger, out of place and without foundation, and an error, of course. The images have been merely shown as a favor to us, (no special preparation except taken professionally with the girls that happened to be available) so people on OPF can see a little of the nature of the files and there's a lot in there to discover.

Ray West said:

The studio situation does not stretch the capabilities of anything, so, what is there to say? What do I compare it with? What alternatives are there? Give a Canon system at a quarter the price the same test, then maybe you can decide if it's worth the money.

Click to expand...

Ray,

First, let me say just from the tests I have done that I doubt very much that the 1DsIII can match the pixels of the Sinar Back. Pixel size for a start is 6.4µ for the 1DsIII versus 7.2µ for the Sinar Back. And it has also 33MP as opposed to just 21 MP, which for fashion photography might make a difference in the quality of a double page spread or a large poster in a show. At f 8.0, for example, the 1DsIII is already showing diffraction limitations.

So what the Sinar does cannot be so easily replaced by the Canon Flagships and the 5D, I'm afraid, while beautiful will not focus to the standard needed? I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but there is likely far more here and many unanswered questions about the 35mm cameras as they climb in pixel count and drop pixel size.

Ray, $8,000 is a huge amount of money! It's a huge amount for me. I ask whether it might be better for me to use my 1DII and 5D and then rent a Professional Digital Back as needed for high resolution, without Moiré or image degradation because of pixel size. Sure, I'm a totally loyal Canon guy heavily invested in everything Canon. Still, I like to look at cameras, as you do, as mere tools for a job, to get a look and not be limited by the silicon in the chip! That's why we need to look at better tools as we can get hold of them. The Sinar H6 and the 33 million pixel Sinar eMotion 75 Digital Back fall into that category as do the Phase one and Leaf backs which will get my attention in the coming weeks too.



Thierry,

Thanks again for the kindness in getting the images!



Everyone,

The 30MP back is an extraordinary achievement. All we wanted to do with this thread was to get a glimpse, just a little peek, and a sense of some beauty that can be captured without artifact.

I will be testing all the backs I can get hold of and without sentiment. Here we are just supposed to enjoy the kindness in sharing these "hard to come by" pictures. It has taken me almost a year to get such pictures from an established sought after fashion photographer. These are not pictures to be sent to vogue, just casual shots taken from his hard drive and shared with us with no post processing except a crop where Thierry pointed out.

Are the skin tones good? What about the skin texture? Can it define those fine white hairs on the edge of a profile? Does it distort flying strands of hair and produce Moiré? Is there artifact like banding and odd pixel effects in the image? Do you find the rendering of cloth satisfactory? How do the highlights and shadows behave and so forth.

That was the whole idea of this post, and Kaisern has kindly shot them for me, since he is a very good friend of mine here in Bangkok, even though he is using Phase and Hasselblad backs. Nevertheless, he was amazed by the handling, the weight and the features of this new Hy6, as well as by the quality of the eMotion 33 Mpx, and decided to purchase one système. He is an early Phase customer and owes all backs of this brand, since the begining. He has purchased the very first H3D in Thailand, when it was available. But he is not attached to any brand in particular, and that is why I have chosen him as a reliable person when it comes to give comments and appreciation/judgement on a product, being it Sinar or not. And also for his very special and true way of "communicating" with his models.

Beside his work as a fashion and beauty/portrait photographer, Kaisern is a very famous product designer, which he designs and manufactures in its own factories here in Thailand, having customers for his designed items in Japan, but also in Italy and the USA.

Best regards,
Thierry

Asher Kelman said:

Everyone,

The 30MP back is an extraordinary achievement. All we wanted to do with this thread was to get a glimpse, just a little peek, and a sense of some beauty that can be captured without artifact.

Are the skin tones good? What about the skin texture? Can it define those fine white hairs on the edge of a profile? Does it distort flying strands of hair and produce Moiré? Is there artifact like banding and odd pixel effects in the image? Do you find the rendering of cloth satisfactory? How do the highlights and shadows behave and so forth.

Click to expand...

Thierry Hagenauer said:

Dear Asher,

I will, but am not sure if Kaisern will find the time: he is so busy all the time.

As for the light used, it is very simple: a Broncolor para in front of the model and shot staright in front of this para. This can be seen in her eyes, in which both the para and Kaisern are reflected!

Post production is done by Kaisern's retoucher(s) most of the time.

Best regards,
Thierry

Click to expand...

Thanks Thierry for posting the samples,
I was wondering if that was the para or not as I saw that in the eyes as well. I guess that was my first thought on looking at the images, and my second thought was how am I going to afford the upgrade from my rollei 6008/P20......

The images do look very nice indeed.

Regards,
Eric Hiss

Hi Eric,

I'm glad that you can look at the images from the standpoint of image qualitiy and issues related to why one might choose the larger format in the first place.

I did not point out earlier, so let me disclose that ASAIK, the Sinar back does not use micro lenses. Just an intersting little tidbit. I wonder how one gathers the interpixel photon flux?

Eric, I hope you earn so much that you'll get one before I do. However, you'd better start saving up and selling off more stuff!

Asher

Hi Thierry,

Thanks for the exposure information.

I actually downloaded the images when you first uploaded them, and spent some time 'pushing them around' in photoshop. But, I have nothing to compare them with, no similar type images from any camera. I had assumed they were just 'straight jpg conversions', I thought the quality was outstanding, and actually pm'd a couple of friends on opf to download them, and have a play.

I was disappointed that there was not much exif information, and then you posted that " Post production is done by Kaisern's retoucher(s) most of the time". I then wondered how much is due to the camera, the photographer or the retoucher. Obviously, none of these come cheap. It is common practice for camera manufacturers to show their publicity images after much post processing, Not knowing enough about this type of image, maybe I assumed that was what was going on here.

Now, obviously you and Kaisem are well pleased with these images, otherwise I doubt if you would have posted them. I do not think you would post images that were not the best, (nor lie about pping ;-) but I literally have nothing to compare the results with. Whatever I say is based on personal experience with much lesser gear and a pretty crap photographer (me). Since I do not earn money from photography, then the price of the camera (never mind the back/lens/etc.), is way beyond what I would be able to pay for my personal use.

Now I guess the folk who use this sort of gear do not have too much time to comment, so unless they step forward, you'll have to make do with me. Now, can you tell me what to look for, have you something similar from an earlier model for comparison? But, in the mean time, this is a bit of what struck me. (I apologise in advance for using words like 'nice', and that it all may be pretty much expected for anything of this quality.

1) high resolution image. I can see each hair (not checked for 'split ends') each speck of make-up.

2) large range of tonality - can push it one way to give the detail of every hair in the shadows, can push it the other way to give a 'seven o'clock shadow' on the chin.

3) Nice, smooth gradual tone changes in the skin.

Now, if you can post some raw images of scenery, then maybe we get more comments, since there are a number of hdr/stitching examples that I/others could make comparisons with.

I suspect the camera is ideal in a studio environment, since the subject may well be not still enough for the time taken to get the images for stitching, and of course, the pp time will be less. So, in my mind it is a high end tool for a high end user.

If you have no scenic shots, then I can pm you my address, you can then send me the camera, etc. and I will get you some images over Christmas, and post them to you, but I doubt if I would be able to send the camera back to you, ..... ever ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

I have been really busy these last days, working and… testing my 1Ds3 that arrived a few days ago… a marvelous machine, full of promises…
Hence my lack of comments here as I wanted to read and above all LOOK at the files posted by Thierry.

As a yacht shooter, I am not sure I am qualified to comment on this images.

However, I have to say that I'm amazed bu the quality of the smooth gradients and details. Colors looks great to but should be compared with the model beside ;-)

The sharpening could be discussed (even if stated low!) I wish I could have all these details (in the shadows as in the highlights as well) when I shoot wood panelling and furnitures inside the yachts!

Same thing for the beautifull "modelé" that can be seen in the Jennifer's dress, that would be marvelous to get this "modelé" on the white decks of catamarans (a kind of a white tennis court flotting on dark blue sea, what contrasts!) under noon sun light or on the white of the waves…

Impressive details…

Now comparing to the DS3 is a nonsense imo, beside difference of quality between lenses, 33 Mpix is as far from Canon's 21 Mpix than 1ds3 to 1Ds2 (and there's a real world between the 2 Canons).

Comparing prices is also imo a nonsense as:
- you need or not that extra resolution, quality, amount of details
- your clients can or cannot afford the rates you'll have to charge them for your skill AND the gear…

My answers are yes to the 1st question and unfortunately no to the 2nd…

Thierry, if you want me to test the same Sinar Hy6 camera /eMotion 75 DB/Schneider AFD 2.8/80mm combination in the field, well on the water, I'm your man! ;-)

Thanks for posting these images shot whith this combo, They are a revitalizing challenge…

[EDIT] It took me long time to write this (telephone, emails etc.) so Ray posted before me, sorry for the doubble appeal to get a camera! ;-) [/EDIT]

Hi Thierry,

You've mentioned

These samples are for evaluation purposes only - no further use allowed.

Click to expand...

Is it OK if I post here small areas, much magnified, cropped from these images? I've not specifically looked, but if I find something interesting, thinking of highlight/shadow detail.

Best wishes,

Ray

sure, no problem, there is certainly something to find.

Best regards,
Thierry

Ray West said:

Hi Thierry,

You've mentioned

Is it OK if I post here small areas, much magnified, cropped from these images? I've not specifically looked, but if I find something interesting, thinking of highlight/shadow detail.

Best wishes,

Ray

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Thierry, and for posting the images. My apologies if I came off as hypercritical, and if I did it is only because of the high expectations set up by my previous experience with Sinar products.

I wasn't implying anything about the quality of the eMotion 75 back as opposed to other backs, really, but I'm considering, for what I do, does a high-end digital back give me something that I like better than what I can do with 4x5" or 8x10" film in my Sinar P. Unless I fall into some situation where I might need to produce a large number of digital images in a short amount of time, as I am sure is the situation with Kaisern Chen, I don't see myself purchasing a high-end back in the near future, but I might rent one for a project, if I can achieve the visual effects I like with it, leaving efficiencies of production aside. So my point about DOF was not to determine the subject distance and aperture in Kaisern's photograph, but thinking out loud, to ask how short could I get the DOF if I wanted more selective focus, which is more my style. Could I do it with this lens and this back, or should I stick with film or another solution? A single shot 33 Mpix back is certainly an impressive achievement that can accomplish many things, but it's also not the solution to every photographic problem, so I'm thinking about whether it fits my own workflow. Sometimes it might, and sometimes not.

hi David,

You're absolutely right, such a back does not and cannot be a solution for all. This back has been designed for location work, untethered (as well as tethered), with fast shooting rate of 1.5 sec./image and W/O buffer, since it has an internal hard state memory of 6 GB. So one can shoot until this internal memory is full, if needed, or then even and also on CF card (or both at the same time).

I don't know excatly what kind of work/setups you are shooting, but seeing that you're using 4x5"/8x10" on a p2 gives me to guess that you are in a studio environement. In this case, our line of multishot backs (22 or 33 MPx) and tethered would certainly more be the solution, if one day you decide to go digital. I have myself no doubt that the SB 54 H (22 MPx) used in 16-shot mode equals the quality achieved with 8x10", in terms of resolution, modulation and graduation of the tonalities. I know that some will certainly say the contrary of this claim, but I have seen many tests done (by museums and art galleries or libraries) who have chosen to do their reproductions digital. Used with the 16-shot mode, the resolution is in fact 4 x 2.22 MPx = 88.8 MPx. No question here anymore about quality, with this resolution, the right lenses and the true un-interpolated colors with the multishot.

DOF: alright, I understand your point. Well, I must say that when Kaisern did these shots I did have only this 80 AFD lens available. It is certainly not the lens of choice for such work or when wishing to have reduced DOF. But I am sure that you can achieve the same narrow DOF in MF digital with the current sensor size. There many samples which have been posted on other forums.

Best regards,
Thierry

David A. Goldfarb said:

Thanks for your reply Thierry, and for posting the images. My apologies if I came off as hypercritical, and if I did it is only because of the high expectations set up by my previous experience with Sinar products.

I wasn't implying anything about the quality of the eMotion 75 back as opposed to other backs, really, but I'm considering, for what I do, does a high-end digital back give me something that I like better than what I can do with 4x5" or 8x10" film in my Sinar P. Unless I fall into some situation where I might need to produce a large number of digital images in a short amount of time, as I am sure is the situation with Kaisern Chen, I don't see myself purchasing a high-end back in the near future, but I might rent one for a project, if I can achieve the visual effects I like with it, leaving efficiencies of production aside. So my point about DOF was not to determine the subject distance and aperture in Kaisern's photograph, but thinking out loud, to ask how short could I get the DOF if I wanted more selective focus, which is more my style. Could I do it with this lens and this back, or should I stick with film or another solution? A single shot 33 Mpix back is certainly an impressive achievement that can accomplish many things, but it's also not the solution to every photographic problem, so I'm thinking about whether it fits my own workflow. Sometimes it might, and sometimes not.

Click to expand...

David,

I'm very interested in purpose directed purchasing and renting of cameras and lenses. Nicolas' needs are pretty familiar to me. He's a professional, needs tons of detail, great tonalities, very accurate colors and reproducible workflow. He will, I believe get absolutely hooked with the eMotion 75 as it will make the models on his multi million dollar yachts breathe and the wood look like you could tap it and get the sound of hand made furniture. That's how real these files will look.

So what are you end uses of your pictures and what are the subjects you need or like to photograph? We need to be thinking more of the obvious: what is it that different subsets of photographers really need.

These images are an important resource. I hope you will be able to glean much from them.You can extract portions of the pictures for discussion but not use them for any other purpose. When you prepare the image, use the IPTC function of iviewmedia Pro or Photoshop to add © Kaisern Chen 2007 all rights reserved. No license to use except for comment in http://www.openphotographyforums.com

If all goes well, Nicolas will test a camera and here, I'll do the same. So this effort is not a minor commitment. It's also not limited to Sinar.

Thanks for taking advantage of his opportunity to give OPF a foothold in an important part of professional and high-end work.

Asher

Hi,
I think the new camera will be great but the posted examples don't do justice for what it can do I think.

If possible try some real high contrast scenes and don't overexpose for this test.

Would love to try one myself
At the moment I'm using a Leaf Aptus 22 and I know what MF backs can do and it's ALOT

hi Frank,

So you're here too! I didn't know. Nice.

Yes, the images are certainly not showing the capability of the back, and this was not the purpose for the posting, as explained already. Those are simply shots taken under "Asian" light (always over-exposed), like the Asian people are used to shoot and how customers want it: they simply wish their skin to be as white as possible, like we westerner dream of having it as tanned as possible.

There will certainly be more images to come, in the near future, or even tests made under more contrastfull light, to show the whole dynamic of the back and the "ALOT"

Kind regards,
Thierry

Frank Doorhof said:

Hi,
I think the new camera will be great but the posted examples don't do justice for what it can do I think.

If possible try some real high contrast scenes and don't overexpose for this test.

Would love to try one myself
At the moment I'm using a Leaf Aptus 22 and I know what MF backs can do and it's ALOT

Click to expand...

Asher Kelman said:

If all goes well, Nicolas will test a camera and here, I'll do the same.

Click to expand...

Hi Asher

Even in dream, don't imagine I'll allow you to crop one of my images!


LoL joking of course <:-O)
Je suis de bonne humeur ce matin!

have there ever been posted any images on one of the forums which did not have gotten just criticism if not from one person than from another?

Hi Rainer,


The images have to be downloaded right now. I'll embed them!

To me, I am delighted to have work on higher end cameras. This was just a kindness for Thierry to show us some of the Asian model images. I had expected to test the camera in Switzerland in May then in the second week in September. However, the units are in short supply right now. January should be much better. By then I'll have some phase one pictures and will try to make sure we have full dynamic range.

Re Criticism, meaning "negative" criticism, yes, sometimes there is a "mob" or "wolf pack" reaction to something that one is not familiar with or beyond one's reach. I've heard people knock BMW repeatedly then "Voila!" they earn enough and guess what they arrive in? A BMW in my driveway and they now preach how everyone should get one!

My job is to bring possibilities for excellence and also fun. This platform is most important. I value each and every sharing of MF and LF images as it broadens our view.

OPF will have a competency in professional cameras and that is our push for now.

As always I’m thrilled to see you here and wish you joy and delight for your beautiful family and that applies equally to everyone else here! Just with Rainer, I have had the special pleasure of meeting and spending memorable time with him. I cannot forget how at one moment he surprised us and bent down in the street and unrolled a stunning architectural photograph on the grass for us to enjoy. I never had a train set as a kid, but I felt like one examining the parts of the image, knees on the grass with people going by thinking we had some treasure map!

Asher

Why is Sinar doing this?

These post, and a number following, have been moved from another thread, http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=40005#post40005 which was primarily concerned with the HY6 camera, some early images were shown, but many of the responses drifted away from the images, and onto more general things. Although it starts off with Sinar, many of the following comments apply to every camera manufacturer. So, let's really say what is on our minds.

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar. Maybe that is already the wrong way to start my message and I should stop.

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

What confuses me about Sinar is why do they display completely over retouched photos in their advertisements? With skin so soft it seems to be smoother than plastic. The color so terribly colorcorrected that a point&shoot camera delivers a more natural looking picture. With photo montage (composed parts) in the picture.
I've been seeing that girl with the strange skincolor from the Sinar ad with the green background often and I just think: What is this? Is this ad really targeted at professional photographers? Are they trying to sell photoshop or cameras/backs?
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf


And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then. They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

And it's just not true that these pics only had slight color correction (color destruction) and USM applied. The eyes are whitened, veins removed, skin texture softened, etc. It's easy to tell when one focusses on areas such as armpits, edge of the chin, wrist, legs, etc.

The resolution is also nowhere I'd expect it. It's all soft without structure. I've been attending an event where they showcased the new Hasselblad software and the new H3D 39 II. You could see even the tiniest veins in the eyes in such a clarity it was amazing. Wrinkles have been as clear as a streetmap. In these pictures however the eyes are retouched (pretty bad at that) and soft.

You can get better results with a camera that costs 10 times less easily.

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

I would love to see the Hy6 succeed and if it was possible to mount a PhaseOne back to the camera I would immediately get it.

Best
Boris

Why is Sinar doing this?

These post, and a number following, have been moved from another thread, http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=40005#post40005 which was primarily concerned with the HY6 camera, some early images were shown, but many of the responses drifted away from the images, and onto more general things. Although it starts off with Sinar, many of the following comments apply to every camera manufacturer. So, let's really say what is on our minds.

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar. Maybe that is already the wrong way to start my message and I should stop.

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

What confuses me about Sinar is why do they display completely over retouched photos in their advertisements? With skin so soft it seems to be smoother than plastic. The color so terribly colorcorrected that a point&shoot camera delivers a more natural looking picture. With photo montage (composed parts) in the picture.
I've been seeing that girl with the strange skincolor from the Sinar ad with the green background often and I just think: What is this? Is this ad really targeted at professional photographers? Are they trying to sell photoshop or cameras/backs?
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf


And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then. They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

And it's just not true that these pics only had slight color correction (color destruction) and USM applied. The eyes are whitened, veins removed, skin texture softened, etc. It's easy to tell when one focusses on areas such as armpits, edge of the chin, wrist, legs, etc.

The resolution is also nowhere I'd expect it. It's all soft without structure. I've been attending an event where they showcased the new Hasselblad software and the new H3D 39 II. You could see even the tiniest veins in the eyes in such a clarity it was amazing. Wrinkles have been as clear as a streetmap. In these pictures however the eyes are retouched (pretty bad at that) and soft.

You can get better results with a camera that costs 10 times less easily.

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

I would love to see the Hy6 succeed and if it was possible to mount a PhaseOne back to the camera I would immediately get it.

Best
Boris

Why is Sinar doing this?

These post, and a number following, have been copied or else moved to another thread, in this new location , which will deal with contraversial differences between what photographers want and what MF MFRS seem to deliver.

Hi Thierry,

I really have a hard time to understand Sinar. Maybe that is already the wrong way to start my message and I should stop.

But maybe you're interested in honest (possible) customer feedback.

What confuses me about Sinar is why do they display completely over retouched photos in their advertisements? With skin so soft it seems to be smoother than plastic. The color so terribly colorcorrected that a point&shoot camera delivers a more natural looking picture. With photo montage (composed parts) in the picture.
I've been seeing that girl with the strange skincolor from the Sinar ad with the green background often and I just think: What is this? Is this ad really targeted at professional photographers? Are they trying to sell photoshop or cameras/backs?
http://www.sinarcameras.com/file_up...rochures/436_0_prosphy6_210x280_gb_150dpi.pdf


And why would anyone want to spread anything but the best possible image around? Frankly I don't think these photos of that asian photographer further up are good or that they have a point.

The only frame that looks halfway professional is Jennifer_blue bag.jpg although it's also soft and there are probably less than 1000 different shades of color represented.

I've seen an entire special in the german mag Profifoto about the Sinar Hy6 and the pics already sucked then. They really shut down ANY of my interest into the Sinar digiback. The color I see is grey-brownish. Just like when you're overlaying an image with a colorlayer filled with a greyish brown and then set it to COLOR and take the opacity a bit down.

I'm not sure... but is this REALLY the skintone we should expect from an asian model and from a over 30k$ digital back?

Sorry, but even the Canon 5D and Nikon D3 have better color than that straight from the go.

And it's just not true that these pics only had slight color correction (color destruction) and USM applied. The eyes are whitened, veins removed, skin texture softened, etc. It's easy to tell when one focusses on areas such as armpits, edge of the chin, wrist, legs, etc.

The resolution is also nowhere I'd expect it. It's all soft without structure. I've been attending an event where they showcased the new Hasselblad software and the new H3D 39 II. You could see even the tiniest veins in the eyes in such a clarity it was amazing. Wrinkles have been as clear as a streetmap. In these pictures however the eyes are retouched (pretty bad at that) and soft.

You can get better results with a camera that costs 10 times less easily.

Thierry: I appreciate your time and effort you spend on all these forums and many other vendors would benefit if they had someone like you. Still I think Sinar marketing sucks and will kill the company sooner or later which I think would be a terrible thing.

I would love to see the Hy6 succeed and if it was possible to mount a PhaseOne back to the camera I would immediately get it.

Best
Boris

Boris
As stated above, I don't think I'm qualified enough to comment (I have no comparison files in hand), I just would like to point that commenting images embedded in a 12 pages brochure full of pictures and compressed as low as 3.1 Mb is not a good start.
Such JPEG compression cannot deliver skin other than soft and degraded gradients…

For me, if there's a Sinar fault, is to have such compressed file being downloadable frome their website, because it does bring the opportunity to get bad reviews as you did.

I would strongly suggest, if I may, to check with real tif uncompressed files when available…

For the rest Thierry has already stated that the images posted here were very 1st images posted and that they were done in and for Asia with different cultural references for skin colors than for us Western folks…

BTW I see that you haven't post much here (yet!) so I sincerely welcome you, but please be aware that, as in an Open Forum all comments are more than welcome, they are appreciated, discussed counter argues, but needed. What is not needed is unqualified words like suck and other adjective that doesn't bring any good information, just bad atmosphere… I'm sure you got me there and I thank you for your understanding.

Have a great day!
PS BTW please apologize my poor English, not my mother tongue!

Boris
As stated above, I don't think I'm qualified enough to comment (I have no comparison files in hand), I just would like to point that commenting images embedded in a 12 pages brochure full of pictures and compressed as low as 3.1 Mb is not a good start.
Such JPEG compression cannot deliver skin other than soft and degraded gradients…

For me, if there's a Sinar fault, is to have such compressed file being downloadable frome their website, because it does bring the opportunity to get bad reviews as you did.

I would strongly suggest, if I may, to check with real tif uncompressed files when available…

For the rest Thierry has already stated that the images posted here were very 1st images posted and that they were done in and for Asia with different cultural references for skin colors than for us Western folks…

BTW I see that you haven't post much here (yet!) so I sincerely welcome you, but please be aware that, as in an Open Forum all comments are more than welcome, they are appreciated, discussed counter argues, but needed. What is not needed is unqualified words like suck and other adjective that doesn't bring any good information, just bad atmosphere… I'm sure you got me there and I thank you for your understanding.

Have a great day!
PS BTW please apologize my poor English, not my mother tongue!

Boris
As stated above, I don't think I'm qualified enough to comment (I have no comparison files in hand), I just would like to point that commenting images embedded in a 12 pages brochure full of pictures and compressed as low as 3.1 Mb is not a good start.
Such JPEG compression cannot deliver skin other than soft and degraded gradients…

For me, if there's a Sinar fault, is to have such compressed file being downloadable frome their website, because it does bring the opportunity to get bad reviews as you did.

I would strongly suggest, if I may, to check with real tif uncompressed files when available…

For the rest Thierry has already stated that the images posted here were very 1st images posted and that they were done in and for Asia with different cultural references for skin colors than for us Western folks…

BTW I see that you haven't post much here (yet!) so I sincerely welcome you, but please be aware that, as in an Open Forum all comments are more than welcome, they are appreciated, discussed counter argues, but needed. What is not needed is unqualified words like suck and other adjective that doesn't bring any good information, just bad atmosphere… I'm sure you got me there and I thank you for your understanding.

Have a great day!
PS BTW please apologize my poor English, not my mother tongue!