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Perspective and focal length

David McKinny

New member
Hi all,
This is my first post so if I am in the wrong place please let me know.

My question is this... How does perspective (normal, wide, tele) change with the combinations of focal length and sensor size?

To be more specific, and to give you a reference point, a 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera is considered "normal". I have a Canon 30D, hence a smaller sensor with a 1.6 "crop" factor (apologies to Doug Kerr). Based on my research the last few months, a "normal" lens for my camera would be around 30mm.

However, 30mm is considered somewhat "wide". I'm assuming this consideration is with regard to perspective. So if I wanted to replicate the experience shooting with a fixed "normal" lens from the film days on my 30D would I use a 30mm lens? Or would I still use a 50mm lens and just stand a bit further away from my subject?

Thanks,
David
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
Hi David, and welcome!

First of all you've obviously done your homework - Doug is not a man to be trifled with:)

I think about it in a fairly simplistic way - and ignoring all the advice on the web, in magazines etc...


Perspective depends on where you place the camera. Perspective most simply refers to the ratio of distances of objects from the film/sensor plane(sp?).

- So, if you get really close to a flower with a mountain behind it then the flower appears relatively bigger in comparison with the mountain than if you stand back a bit.

- Similarly with two objects of similar size, e.g. people if you're much closer to one than the other then the first appears bigger in the frame.

The focal length you select then determines the field or angle of view - this is also dependent on the size of the film/sensor - i.e. how much you get in. So a long focal length gives a narrow angle of view and you might not get both the flower and the mountain in frame and a short focal length a wide angle of view (think about rays of light passing through a small hole in a piece of card held the focal length away from the film frame and that shows this idea)

Finally, 50mm is thought of as standard on a 35mm film frame as it gives a field or angle of view similar to normal human vision. Actually it's a bit long and 40mm would likely be nearer, but I suspect that there are perceptual reasons that we see slightly telephoto compared to our full field (angle) of vision.

For your smaller sensor a 30mm lens is about equivalent to a 50mm lens on 35mm film, and gives a 'normal' field/angle of view.

When the lens gives a normal field of view then if you take a photograph from any point then the perspective will be similar to that experienced when viewing from that point with normal vision (strictly you have to view the print at the correct distance too). If you selct a longer or shorter focal length you will see less/more than you expect given the viewing point which is interpreted as a perspective distortion.

I'll now await the heavyweights explanations with some trepidation, but hope this helps.

Mike
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, David,

Hi all,
This is my first post so if I am in the wrong place please let me know.

I think this is a good as any, and welcome aboard.

My question is this... How does perspective (normal, wide, tele) change with the combinations of focal length and sensor size?

To be more specific, and to give you a reference point, a 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera is considered "normal". I have a Canon 30D, hence a smaller sensor with a 1.6 "crop" factor (apologies to Doug Kerr).

Yes, yes, yes . ..

Based on my research the last few months, a "normal" lens for my camera would be around 30mm. etc.

Well, firstly, the "perspective effect" of a particular shot is a result of where the camera is. Focal length isn't really involved - directly. And there really isn't "wide" or "narrow" perspective. There is the perspective I (or the camera) gets looking down my street from in front of my house, and there is the perspective that I (or the camera) gets looking down the street from in front of the house four houses away.

What are the hallmarks of a particular point of perspective? Well, for one (and we usually don't mention this), from one places we can see certain things and not others, and from a different place that will be different. This is in fact a part of perspective. (And to be really thorough, we need to mention that we get a different perspective looking east from a certain spot and looking west!)

But, thinking of perspective in the more usual context, one manifestation of a certain "perspective" (and I think this was mentioned by one of the others responding to your question) is the relative sizes, on the image, or certain objects (having certain actual sizes and located at certain places).

Another manifestation (actually related to the first) is what points on different objects appear to be aligned on the image.

If we have the camera at a certain site, and shoot the scene with lenses of different focal length, those manifestations will be the same for each image - they are unchanged by change in focal length.

But focal length gets into the deal in two indirect ways (which can help misdirect our attention from the basic principles here). Firstly, if our interest is embracing a certain amount of stuff in our frame, and if the perspective effect we want is obtained at a greater distance (than in some other situation), then we are led to use a lens with a larger focal length (than in that other situation) to effectively fill the frame with the goods - and only for that reason.

Focal length gets into the deal in another indirect way. The perspective effect given by a viewed image will be the same as we would experience in "live" viewing of the scene, from the same location the camera was, if the angular size of objects in the print is the same as they would have had to the eye during the "live" viewing.

To attain this requires some attention to the actual size of the presented image (the dimensions of a print, for example), and the presumed distance from which the image will be viewed. And calculating this involves the focal length of the lens (as well as the image dimensions).

Now to the issue of why a certain focal length is considered "normal" for a certain format size. We hear several stories.

One is that this focal length gives a field of view comparable to that of the human eye. Well, that really doesn't work out. Of course, the field of view of the eye is hard to define, given the complexity of peripheral vision. But if we accept any reasonable definition, that concept of the normal focal length doesn't match.

Another thing we hear (and this links to your inquiry) is that the "normal focal length" gives the same perspective (effect) as is given by the human eye. I think you can see from my discussion above that this is totally meaningless.

So why, for example, is a focal length of somewhere in the area of 40-50 mm considered "normal for a camera with a 36 x 24 mm format size (a "full-frame 35-mm" format)?

My guess is that when 35-mm photography came into widespread use (and considering fixed lens cameras, or the lens to be furnished with an interchangeable lens camera), manufacturers concluded that the widest range of situations would be accommodated for "consumer" users with a focal length in that neighborhood. Period.

It is even possible that their actual finding was biased by the fact that lens design might have been easier for a focal length of 50 mm than, say, 45 mm (which their surveys might have shown was superior). We note that in later years, fixed lens full-frame 35-mm cameras came to be commonly equipped with a 45 mm, rather than 50 mm, lens.

Now lets examine our usual concern with the interaction between focal length and format (sensor) size. Basically, the field of view of the cameras (and that is measured in angular terms) decreases as focal length increases (for any given format size) and increases as format size increases (for any given focal length).

Thus the same field of view is given by a 50 mm lens on a camera with a 22.5 x 15 mm sensor (a "1.6x" camera) and an 80 mm lens on a camera with a 36 x 24 mm sensor (a "full-frame 35-mm" camera).

When we say that a 50 mm lens, used on a "1.6x" camera, has a "full-frame 35-mm equivalent focal length" of 80 mm, we merely mean that the lens of interest, on the camera of interest, gives the same field of view as would be given by an 80 mm lens on a full-frame 35-mm camera.

Now, if we fell comfortable with the notion that a 45-mm lens is a "normal" lens on a full-frame 35-mm camera, then on a "1.6x" camera, a 28-mm lens would be equally appropriate to consider a "normal" lens.

But to circle back to the staring line, all this has nothing (directly) to do with perspective considerations.
 

David McKinny

New member
Mike and Doug, thanks for the relies, and I do feel welcome!

This is a philosophical question for me, as I am trying to get a frame of reference for my photography. For example, an elephant is large in reference to a mouse. However, that same mouse is huge compared to a single pixel well on an image sensor.

I think I was confusing "perspective" with geometry and maybe image distortion. Like when a wide angle lens is used close to my face and my nose looks many times larger than my head ;-)

Thanks for the education.
 
Mike and Doug, thanks for the relies, and I do feel welcome!

This is a philosophical question for me, as I am trying to get a frame of reference for my photography. For example, an elephant is large in reference to a mouse. However, that same mouse is huge compared to a single pixel well on an image sensor.

Hi David,

Well, an elephant looked at from a large distance may look smaller than a mouse close-up.
That's viewpoint related perspective, and can be expressed as a magnification factor that's related to distance.

I think I was confusing "perspective" with geometry and maybe image distortion. Like when a wide angle lens is used close to my face and my nose looks many times larger than my head ;-)

You didn't confuse it with geometry, it is geometry! The viewpoint determines the relative distances, and thus (perceived) magnification.

Bart
 
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