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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

A small sports edit/crop exercise

Jim Kenny

New member
[Moderator's note: Moved from the "Challenge" thread... Nill]


Asher - thank you for the quick VB Code tip !

I looked through the FAQ for that exact kind of information .. oh well ... thanks for the help Asher !

So in order to try out my new skills ... entry # 3

chase.jpg


"I hear footsteps"

Chapel Hill High School attacker in white is looking for his open teammate. While the Oxford Webb defenders do there best to prevent advancement into there turf.

Again, 10D 70-200 ISO 200 1/640 seconds f4.0
 
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Nill Toulme

New member
Whoops, Jim, you should have quit while you were ahead. This shot is fairly ordinary and could serve as an example of several classic flaws... not peak action, no contact, too much back-to-face ratio, player standing around in the background looking uninvolved, not much interesting in the way of expressions, loose crop, tilted horizon, a little dark overall. In general, probably not a keeper unless it's the only shot of that offensive player you'll ever get.

Yikes! I better go get my second cup of coffee. ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Jim Kenny

New member
This is exactly why i like sharing pics ! FEEDBACK

Simply by bringing this image to the table offers me the oppertunity to learn and improve ...

I hear your comments and I am glad to present examples that myself AND others can see and learn from as well !

If you would allow me to offer a sports metaphor ... when the ball player steps up to the plate .. they would LIKE to hit a home run ... but they know some times they simple strike out ..

But you know what ... I am going to keep playing the game and I am gonna step up the to plate again and try to hit that home run !

Thanks
jim
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Super Jim. I would like to maintain a fairly high level of constructive criticism on this site, beyond the usual "Great shots!" sort of thing. I hope everybody will participate, and receive comments, in that spirit.

And I neglected to mention the leg chopped off at the ankle and the disembodied hands at the left margin. ;-)

But now you know we really meant it when we said how much we liked the first two shots!

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Mary Bull

New member
Jim Kenny said:
.......What I'm learning here is how to recognize the home run when I hit it. ......Sometimes the ball seems to get lost in the wild blue yonder.........................Used to be a Little League Football mom, myself.

Mary





Edited for focus on the image.
Nil Toulme said:
Super Jim. I would like to maintain a fairly high level of constructive criticism on this site, beyond the usual "Great shots!" sort of thing. I hope everybody will participate, and receive comments, in that spirit.
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jim,

There's always the problem of what to do with orphan limbs or partial people. Part of a shoulder can be missing, but a spare hand or two is more problematic!

In a game try to isolate the action if possible. If the action was the key moment in deciding the game, then who cares about the extra limbs.

For news, you are stuck! You can crop, but here it would be so difficult.

However, for a momento, you might vignette or blur the outsdide very slightly.

Asher
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
chase.jpg


"I hear footsteps"

I did a quick removal of the figures following the two players.

The resulting dual between the reds and the whites is, of course, not what happened!

This is in fact a lie and not acceptable for reporting.

Still for argument sake, it would show that the guy in red to has to divert the ball quickly or it's gone.

The other players is perhaps even more effective, but not floating hands or parts of people, unless this is the "money shot" that puts the news photographer ahead of the pack.

However, my adaption is entirely shameless.

chase_AK.jpg


Better would be to add the rest of a leg to the last red guy and merely remove the extra hands!

Asher
 

Nill Toulme

New member
OK, let's make a bit of an exercise of this. If I felt obliged to keep this shot — such as if I had to have a shot of that kid, and this was the only usable one I had — I'd be more likely to crop it something like this:


chase1.jpg



...or even this:


chase2.jpg



There's just not enough going on with the other players to make them be more than "clutter" to the story of the image.

I also straightened the horizon a bit, converted the image to sRGB, and brightened it just a tad.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Tim Gray

New member
The last one of Nill's is where I was heading - just the one player in the white shirt. This is where having lots of pixels to relegate to the editing bin is a "good thing". What makes this shot is the expression on his face.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Don't be afraid to crop aggressively if the shot is sharp. The other day I got an order for a 12x18 print of a shot that was cropped down to less than 1/8 of a 1DMkII frame. It was a diving goalie shot taken from behind the other goal line.

I told the mama I wasn't sure how well it would blow up, but I'd try it. She said her husband was "very picky." I said if they didn't like it I'd reprint it smaller at no charge.

They came back and ordered a second copy of the 12x18.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Jim Kenny

New member
This is an unexpected treat to have this photo used in this exercise ! Thanks

So in the interest of adding to this exercise.... let me share the original photo ... the only thing I did was "Save for Web" and resized to 800x534

now some other details .... first I was wrong when i said it was with a 10D ... this shot was from 1D MKII ... 3104x2072 and it was 1.86MB and the focal length was 155 mm

fullchase.jpg


Now for some of what was going on when I looked at this shot ... The player in the white has been a team mate of my sons for a number of years ... I was looking at this shot to add to the "Best of Season" photo CD that his parents had requested of me.

I simply wanted this shot to be part of that collection ... I wanted to show how uneven the odds were against him ... even to the point that I Cropped the photo to include the right wrist of his own team mate ... HOPING to IMPLY that he was being chased by yet another defender. This photo was not intended to "Report" it was intended to make the kid look like a super hero

Asher your comment "The resulting dual between the reds and the whites is, of course, not what happened!" is EXACTLY THE TRUTH !!!

With all that said ... this photo was to end up in a COLLECTION of photos that already included some better isolated shots ... and that in the words of Paul Harvey is the rest of the story : )

BUT this was a valuable exercise And to Nill's point about do not be afraid to crop aggressively ... I agree - thank you for choosing this photo.


Jim
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Thanks for that context Jim, and I think it illustrates another point that can easily get lost in the shuffle sometimes in the sorts of conversations/critiques we've been having here. That is, that sometimes a shot that might not make it as a standalone piece, works very well in the larger context of a presentation or sequence. Similarly, the editing of the shot has to keep that context in mind.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Tony Panzica

New member
Many times I have sold images that are similar to this. Where, say if you are think of enlarging, maybe this would not be "your" choice. We shooters look at photos so differently than parents do. I should know, I am a parent 3 times, with all of them in HS sports. Lately I have come to edit out only those images that our out of focus, or not framed right. Its less than 10% usually. I remember editing a game with a parent/friend watching me over the shoulder. He kept saying, dont delete that one, its a good shot. Sure enough, he dragged that parent over and they bought prints. This photo as part of a collection of images is a great addition to help tell the story of this players day in action. If you dont get too many other shots, Nill's advice to not be afraid to to over crop is excellent advice. Nill's last choice for cropping would make a great poster for sure!
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Jim,

When you posted the original, I thought - 'its obvious where to crop it' so yertiz-

soccer01.jpg


I would blur out the mechanical bits in the background. Now, if you want the facial expression, you may have to crop in closer, but from a pictorial point of view (well I almost know what I mean) I think something like this would do, crop wise only. Maybe even more panoramic, well same x, less y, perhaps the ball down on the border, with all their feet running along the frame.

Sorry about the black border, result of not enough coffee, but it shows something I hadn't thought of before, that a distorted frame, mat, or whatever, outside of the image can direct your eye within the picture, as well as selective blurring and so on within the image. Too much to play with. Playing the game is easier than processing photos of it...

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Jim Kenny

New member
Ray - the offset large black border could be considered a FEATURE and a BENIFIT if made into a Print.

This provides the player with a White or Silver Sharpe, a place to AUTOGRAPH the print : )

Also, I agreee ... nobody ever said sports photography was going to be easy !

Jim
 

Ray West

New member
Ok then Jim, how about the guys running along the border, the guy in white's toe right in the corner, the ball in the black frame, forget about the white shirted guy in the background? I was trying to position the ball in the 2/3 region, hence the previous crop. As mentioned before, the lad in the background stops the action, red card for him...

Best wishes,
Ray
 

Jim Kenny

New member
Ray - I mis understood your post earlier - but now understand and I am at a machine with PS

The following is the result of some of the comments so far - I hope I am getting it right.


chaseborder.jpg



couple thoughts

the ball was in deep grass when shot was taken need to fix that

my name should be the kids name ... but I do not want kids name here

Ray ... your right about that red card for the kid just standing around watching the game

and the trailing team mate ... well i just don't know

This edit/crop exercise sure has taken this in a direction I would have never ended up with out yalls help ... this is great !

Jim
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Jim,

That was the idea, but I'm not so sure it was a good idea, I sort of preferred it stretched out a bit. Still, a good exercise. I think it would need some serious pp work, remove the watcher, and the last guy in white, put more space between the groups of players, line the feet up with the bottom edge, but that may look the other players look bigger than they do now. I'm not sure if it sits into 'sports', but it may be a nice keepsake for the parents. I reckon you can do something with it, or try another idea or three.

Thanks for trying it out and showing the results.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Aaron Strasburg

New member
Releases?

This is an interesting thread for me since I just shot my 3rd soccer game today. A friend of the family is a senior and today they won the state championship for high school women's soccer.

I'll continue rambling about the game in a minute, but my real question concerns releases. Obviously many of the girls (and boys in Jim's photo) are minors, and they're also readily identifiable. I believe I could post an image to this thread, since it's for non-commercial use, without any releases. Correct? Does the fact that the girls are minors matter?

Several photogs out, at least a couple with some pretty big glass, in addition to not-so-serious parents. Even one mother with a DSLR on a monopod, so she qualifies as more serious than most with their P&Ss. I was, however, the only one in position to catch the game-winning (and only) goal. A decent shot, slightly back-focused. Grrr. I can sharpen it up enough for the web, but not for a decent print. I had better luck today than last time, this case may have just been me getting ahead of the camera/lens, which isn't hard to do with my old Sigma 70-300.

I had an offer of a 300 f/2.8 IS, but I chose not to do that. Borrowing a >$3k makes me nervous, I haven't yet figured out how to shoot worth a damn off a monopod (and I could not hand hold that honking lens for a whole game), and I was worried about missing shots as they got close to the goal with that long focal length, especially on a 20D. A 70-200 f/2.8 IS with a 1.4x TC would be outstanding, as would the 100-400. I'm running out of family friends playing high school sports, though, so it's a bit tough to justify new lenses just for this since I'm really not interested in selling prints.

Anyway, I'm learning from the critiques, so I appreciate all the previous posts.
 

Nill Toulme

New member
Aaron Strasburg said:
I'll continue rambling about the game in a minute, but my real question concerns releases. Obviously many of the girls (and boys in Jim's photo) are minors, and they're also readily identifiable. I believe I could post an image to this thread, since it's for non-commercial use, without any releases. Correct? Does the fact that the girls are minors matter?
Regardless of whether they're "readily identifiable" (and I *never* put anybody's name on my website, especially kids'), I'm of the view that posting here is editorial use and does not require a release. That view is worth what you're paying for it though, and matters differ somewhat from state to state in the U.S. and from country to country elsewhere.

I also make it clear to people that I'm perfectly happy to remove any shot from my site on request. In almost five years, and with almost 50,000 images online, I've had one such request.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Aaron,

No releases needed for pictures taken in a public place in plain open view where they have no expectation of privacy.

In a private place, like a stadium, I would check with a lawyer, but to me, at least there is no expectation of privacy.

However, no right to snap pictures can prevent someone from trying to sue you.

That can happen if your images humiliate of libel them in some way. That can include the publication in a place with an inaproppriate title or as part of an incorrect article to degrading as a whole. Even then if the aticle is offending and you did not write it, you are, (from my non-legal opinion, but by my reading) in the clear.

Be careful of photographing minors in dance, cheerleading and sports, that there is not a clothing malfunction or something else which might render an image inappropriate in the wrong hands.

So in answer to your specific question, yes you can post images, but not any that humiliate, denigrate or demean someone or with a title that does the same or which show the minor in a more sensual position as opposed to sports.

If you do this, I see no problem.

If one asks whether or not one would show the image if it was one's own child, then one has the answer. Generally, all sports pictures are fine.

There has been only one dance picture I had an issue with and I provately asked the poster to swap it out, which was done graciously.

I'd encourage you to take as many images as possible and get feedback!

I hope this helps,

Asher
 
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