Warped jetty - Derwentwater

janet Smith · Feb 8, 2010

Derwentwater

I've just come back from a weekend away in the Lake district, Saturday was bright blue and sunny, when this shot was taken on Sunday, it was very still, calm, cold, slightly misty and grey. This shot is of a warped jetty at Derwentwater, I took loads, but I'm concerned about the tilt of the jetty, it's a very odd sensation when you walk to the end of the jetty the slope and twist of the warped and sinking structure is very pronounced, I'm concerned that the resulting images look odd - opinions please!

Please bear in mind that I've just processed this one quickly/roughly and would appreciate thoughts about the way to proceed with these, I'm thinking that they may work best in b&W, what do you think?

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Feb 8, 2010

janet Smith said:
..., I'm concerned that the resulting images look odd - opinions please!

Please bear in mind that I've just processed this one quickly/roughly and would appreciate thoughts about the way to proceed with these, I'm thinking that they may work best in b&W, what do you think?

Hi Jan,

I would never try to 'save' or 'improve' an image by converting to B&W (unless it was shot with B&W as a goal). The color of your image is fine as a start (cool distant tones, warm nearer tones), I'd crop it on the left though (approx. half of the area at the left of the jetty).

Cheers,
Bart

StuartRae · Feb 8, 2010

Hi Jan,

I'm glad you had some decent weather.

I agree with Bart on the B&W issue.

The jetty is certainly worryingly wonky. Those wooden boards can be quite lethal when they're wet, especially if you're wearing walking boots. Here's an extract from my journal for April 2000.

The wet wooden boards of the Lodore landing stage provided little grip for my walking boots, and even less for my nylon over-trousers. The boatman watched impassively as I slid slowly and gracefully towards him. Eventually he spoke. 'Going to Keswick?', he asked.

Regards,

Stuart

janet Smith · Feb 8, 2010

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Hi Jan,

I would never try to 'save' or 'improve' an image by converting to B&W (unless it was shot with B&W as a goal). The color of your image is fine as a start (cool distant tones, warm nearer tones), I'd crop it on the left though (approx. half of the area at the left of the jetty).

Hi Bart

Thanks for your comments, I posted this shot as a sample to demonstrate that the shot is level, it's the jetty that's not, so I positioned the jetty centrally in this shot, I took several more with the jetty off-center, and some vertically, I may post some more as I work on them.

I was thinking as I took them as the scene looked relatively dull, that they may work in b&w but I'm actually preferring them in colour now, because of the warm tones in the wood. I'll work on them some more and see where I get with them, thanks for your thoughts Bart, appreciated......

janet Smith · Feb 8, 2010

StuartRae said:
I'm glad you had some decent weather.

I agree with Bart on the B&W issue.

The jetty is certainly worryingly wonky. Those wooden boards can be quite lethal when they're wet, especially if you're wearing walking boots. Here's an extract from my journal for April 2000.

The wet wooden boards of the Lodore landing stage provided little grip for my walking boots, and even less for my nylon over-trousers. The boatman watched impassively as I slid slowly and gracefully towards him. Eventually he spoke. 'Going to Keswick?', he asked.

Hi Stuart

Thanks for commenting, yes it really was very worrying to walk on such a wonky slippy jetty and yes I had hikers on and there was absolutely no grip as the surface was a bit slimy with moss, so it was with some trepidation that I ventured to the end of the jetty! A local guy came and talked to me and he was telling me that the jetty had sunk a lot recently and wondered if it would be closed off. Luckily I managed to stay upright and not end up slithering around - love the quote from your journal, typical dry humour! We spent the weekend around Ullswater and Loweswater mainly, lots of walking and good food, a really nice weekend, I'll probably post some more shots over the next few days as I get time to work on them.

fahim mohammed · Feb 8, 2010

Janet, I do not see any particular need to do much work here. Maybe a touch of contrast in the distance, A slight moving of the Jetty. And of course some repair work to the jetty if it is unsafe!

Beautiful part of England.

Regards.

janet Smith · Feb 8, 2010

fahim mohammed said:
Janet, I do not see any particular need to do much work here. Maybe a touch of contrast in the distance

Hi Fahim

Thank you, but the more I look at this, the more unhappy I feel with it, I'll re-visit the shots tomorrow after a good sleep with fresh eyes and see what I can do.....

Paul Abbott · Feb 8, 2010

Its a nice image Janet, but I think it would work better in B&W, paying attention to the tones on the horizon and such. The colour image doesn't work for me due to the flat light.
It does look overcast.

janet Smith · Feb 8, 2010

Paul Abbott said:
Its a nice image Janet, but I think it would work better in B&W, paying attention to the tones on the horizon and such. The colour image doesn't work for me due to the flat light.
It does look overcast

Hi Paul

As I was shooting these I was thinking about working them in b&w because of the flat light, but I haven't been happy with the b&w versions I've tried so far either. I've got several more similar ones, I'll spend some time with them tomorrow, thanks for your opinion Paul, I appreciate you taking the time to comment....

Paul Abbott · Feb 8, 2010

I think its worth it, Janet. You could try to drum up some mood in the shot with that cloud cover. I hope it was shot in RAW.

Asher Kelman · Feb 8, 2010

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Hi Jan,

I would never try to 'save' or 'improve' an image by converting to B&W (unless it was shot with B&W as a goal). The color of your image is fine as a start (cool distant tones, warm nearer tones), I'd crop it on the left though (approx. half of the area at the left of the jetty).

Bart,

While I agree with you that one should work towards a mental goal, one should should be allowed to adjust ones motif to respond to the stages in development of the material expression of one's concept.

I believe its wonderful to have one idea and carry that out as conceived in ones mind. This is efficient and requires planning which I respect and try to do myself. However, "openness to new experience" is a special quality different from distraction and lack of fidelity to one's concept. In this I mean that once one starts to make the image from what light came to the camera, the resultant nascent picture, is going to inform us of new possibilities. We should be open to these and treat ones child, the picture as if it has growing rights to behave in particular ways or special qualities to encourage.

So I have a problem with the word, "never", in this case, as ruling out a better image in B&W is closing off a legitimate creative option which the picture might voice to us.

In this case, I do see this as a color picture, and for B&W, I might have used a color filter to increase the contrast. I can see returning to do just that. Still, I hope we can be open to any option at the time of processing.

Asher

Ruben Alfu · Feb 9, 2010

janet Smith said:
I'm concerned about the tilt of the jetty

Hi Janet, for me that´s what makes this image singular and much more interesting, I would rather give it more relevance. What doesn´t work for me is the unbalance in the bg, because the jetty is functioning like the pivot point of a seesaw and there´s more weight on the left side.

janet Smith said:
I'm thinking that they may work best in b&W, what do you think?

It works fine for me as is, but I´m sure something interesting could be achieved in BW.

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Paul Abbott said:
I think its worth it, Janet. You could try to drum up some mood in the shot with that cloud cover. I hope it was shot in RAW.

Hi Paul

Good idea Paul, thank you, I'll work on the clouds and see where I get, yes they're all RAW

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Asher Kelman said:
for B&W, I might have used a color filter to increase the contrast. I can see returning to do just that. Still, I hope we can be open to any option at the time of processing

Hi Asher

We were talking about exactly this last night, if I don't get what I'm looking for out of these shots, I'll wait for a nice day and go back and reshoot.

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Ruben Alfu said:
Hi Janet, for me that´s what makes this image singular and much more interesting, I would rather give it more relevance. What doesn´t work for me is the unbalance in the bg, because the jetty is functioning like the pivot point of a seesaw and there´s more weight on the left side.

Hi Ruben

Thank you for this, I'm just about to start work on these shots again, with fresh eyes now, I think I was too tired yesterday, so I'll bear all of your comments in mind as I work on these again, many thanks....

Cem_Usakligil · Feb 9, 2010

Hi Jan,

A very lovely image, as usual. I think that it has a lot of potential. I have tried my hand at it, but it is by no means an improvement over the original! Merely one of the many possible interpretations which can be achieved in the pp.

Warped Jetty - Derwent Water - © Jan Smith Photography - Edit CU

Cheers,

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Cem_Usakligil said:
A very lovely image, as usual. I think that it has a lot of potential. I have tried my hand at it, but it is by no means an improvement over the original! Merely one of the many possible interpretations which can be achieved in the pp

Hi Cem

Thank you very much for doing this, I appreciate you take the time to do this very much, your version is heading towards the way I want it to look, what did you do?

I've tried them in b&w and they just look dull so I think I'm definitely going to go with colour.

Cem_Usakligil · Feb 9, 2010

janet Smith said:
...your version is heading towards the way I want it to look, what did you do?

I've tried them in b&w and they just look dull so I think I'm definitely going to go with colour.

Hi Jan,

First of all, I have opened the image using ACR in photoshop. In ACR, I have played with the WB, the color tones and added clarity. Then in PS, I have added local contrast enhancements to the jetty, the mountains and the sky on a separate layer. Yet another couple of layers to add "multiplication" to the sky (to make it more dramatic and darker) and to "lighten" the jetty a bit. Another layer or two for selective color/hue adjustments. And then used some soft brush to apply dodging and burning here and there. It is not an exact science, I have gone with my "gut" and I would probably do it a little bit differently a next time

. HTH.

Re. the B&W vs colour, this one deserves colour if you ask my opinion. But B&W looks very nice as well (I've tried ;-))

Cheers,

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Cem_Usakligil said:
It is not an exact science, I have gone with my "gut" and I would probably do it a little bit differently a next time . HTH.

Re. the B&W vs colour, this one deserves colour if you ask my opinion. But B&W looks very nice as well (I've tried ;-))

Hi Cem

Well you certainly gave it a work over - thank you for showing me it's potential, I knew it was lurking in there somewhere! I haven't started work on these shots yet, I've been working on the easier ones first, but will be working on this shot and other similars soon, so your advice/guidance/demonstration is greatly appreciated - thank you very much!

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Feb 9, 2010

janet Smith said:
Hi Cem

Well you certainly gave it a work over - thank you for showing me it's potential, I knew it was lurking in there somewhere! I haven't started work on these shots yet, I've been working on the easier ones first, but will be working on this shot and other similars soon, so your advice/guidance/demonstration is greatly appreciated - thank you very much!

Hi Jan,

For your inspiration:

I enhanced the clouds on a separate layer, and boosted small scale contrast in the rest of the image. Saturation was increased for Yellow, Red and Blue only, to increase the color contrast between warm foreground tones and cool background tones. I like the pastel tones, so I tried to keep that sensation of smoothness, despite the increased contrast. The composition already had the warm tints in the foreground, with a connection to similar tones in the background, so I only cropped a part on the left.

It's just how I see the image. Feel free to process your images as you feel it best expresses your feeling though.

Cheers,
Bart

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
I like the pastel tones, so I tried to keep that sensation of smoothness, despite the increased contrast......

process your images as you feel it best expresses your feeling though.

Hi Bart

I'm working on this shot right now and came back for another look at Cem's version/advice and was delighted to see your version too which I also like! more food for thought for me, thank you for your time in doing this Bart I appreciate it.

The thing that I always struggle with shots like this is working out how I want them to look, this shot can be worked in so many different ways, I've a feeling I'm going to end up with about 10 different versions, but that may be no bad thing

Your point about expressing my feelings in relation to this shot is ringing loudly in my ears, let's hope I can translate it into the resulting image - thanks again Bart.

Cem_Usakligil · Feb 9, 2010

janet Smith said:
..The thing that I always struggle with shots like this is working out how I want them to look, this shot can be worked in so many different ways, I've a feeling I'm going to end up with about 10 different versions, but that may be no bad thing .

Indeed. I tend to be heavy handed in PP and when I came back, I liked Bart's version better than mine. Although he might have added just a tad more contrast if you ask me ;-)

Cheers,

Paul Abbott · Feb 9, 2010

Here is my take on this photo, Janet.
I liked how the jetty subtly mimicked the sloping hills on the horizon.
Your photo had halo's as a result of over PP'ing, I hate the sight of these, they'll always detract from a photo, IMO.

Janet Smith - Warped Jetty, Derwentwater

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Paul Abbott said:
Here is my take on this photo, Janet.
I liked how the jetty subtly mimicked the sloping hills on the horizon.
Your photo had halo's as a result of over PP'ing, I hate the sight of these, they'll always detract from a photo, IMO

Hi Paul, I love your version, thank you..... I'll correct myself there's not going to be about 10 verions of this shot, it'll probably end up about 20 till I make my mind up!! Yes I'm aware of the 'halo' on my original version posted here, and yes I agree with you, I've corrected it in DPP on the versions I'm working on just now.

I have loads more taken on the jetty some vertical ones too. Thanks for your time Paul and this inspiration, I only hope I can live up to all of your skills!

I'll post my final version (when I eventually arrive at it!!) so you can all see - thanks again for all your help.

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Feb 9, 2010

Asher Kelman said:
Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Hi Jan,

I would never try to 'save' or 'improve' an image by converting to B&W (unless it was shot with B&W as a goal). The color of your image is fine as a start (cool distant tones, warm nearer tones), I'd crop it on the left though (approx. half of the area at the left of the jetty).

Click to expand...

Bart,

While I agree with you that one should work towards a mental goal, one should should be allowed to adjust ones motif to respond to the stages in development of the material expression of one's concept.

[...]

So I have a problem with the word, "never", in this case, as ruling out a better image in B&W is closing off a legitimate creative option which the picture might voice to us.

In my view, a B&W image depends much more on strong tonality to achieve a composition than a good colo(u)r image. It is hard to turn a failed color image into a succesful B&W one, because it was not conceived to be one from the getgo, it's missing the right light.

Color images have the added compositional element of color. When I take a color image with color as a compositional element, it will most likely fail as a B&W one. When I take a B&W image I'll make sure that the light and shade will enable a successful rendering without color, color plays no role in my composition then (other than the luminosity it contributes).

Only in very rare situations I can turn a color image into a successful B&W one. The process of composing is so different, it would almost be an accident. Converting a B&W composition into a color one would be even harder, since the compositional colors are unlikely to be there.

The issue is, I'm primarily a color shooter and I compose in the viewfinder (actually even before I point the camera), I compose because the colors and composition intrigue/seduce me, only then will I shoot it. If it doesn't look worth while, I won't shoot. So converting it to B&W will defeat the purpose why I take a shot.

Cheers,
Bart

Wendy Thurman · Feb 9, 2010

I like the shot- the tilt doesn't bother me at all. It does appear as if the wood is somewhat new and the "timelessness" of the image suffers for it. On the US Gulf Coast, wood used in marine environments turns a weathered grey quite quickly- I assume it does so as well in England?

Wendy

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
The issue is, I'm primarily a color shooter and I compose in the viewfinder (actually even before I point the camera), I compose because the colors and composition intrigue/seduce me, only then will I shoot it. If it doesn't look worth while, I won't shoot. So converting it to B&W will defeat the purpose why I take a shot

Hi Bart

I appreciate your point of view, but my opinion is that there are times when a colour shot can work when converted to b&W, I think because of the strong lines within the jetty, this could be such a photograph, I like Paul's b&w version, I've now created about 5 versions of this shot, none of which I'm entirely happy yet, but I'm hopeful that I'll achieve one soon!

Many thanks for your guidance Bart, it does help me to look at the issue/shot with fresh eyes.

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Wendy Thurman said:
I like the shot- the tilt doesn't bother me at all. It does appear as if the wood is somewhat new and the "timelessness" of the image suffers for it. On the US Gulf Coast, wood used in marine environments turns a weathered grey quite quickly- I assume it does so as well in England?

Hi Wendy

Thanks for commenting, good point - the newish timber does affect the timelessness - which is perhaps why I'm liking the b&w version so much. Yes the timber would eventually turn grey here too.

Paul Abbott · Feb 9, 2010

Don't forget about 'Dodging & Burning', a technique where tones are rendered in a photograph.

janet Smith · Feb 9, 2010

Paul Abbott said:
Don't forget about 'Dodging & Burning', a technique where tones are rendered in a photograph.

Hi Paul

Yes, I like to use this technique a lot too....

Warped jetty - Derwentwater

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