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Enhancing OPF: Street photography - what about creating a corner for it in the 'Human Form as Art'?

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
Asher,

As members of OPF are from any different countries, the laws regarding public space and in particular taking photos of people in public space differ. In the U.S and other countries this is relatively easy, in other countries not. Taking a photo might be still OK, but using it for an exposition or to use the words - showing it in a public place without written permission - can get you into trouble if the person complains.

In order to be able to discuss photos, where it was not possible to obtain permission because the people disappeared in the crowd after the shot, while protecting their privacy - would it possible to create a private corner or to allow these shots in the section mentioned in the subject?

Just a thought...

Best regards,
Michael
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
What restrictive laws do you know about for locations outside the USA and Canada?

The simple answer is yes! But why in the "Human form as Art?. That's for nudes! You may still have a good idea. We can also make that forum non-searchable wherever it might be. Would that satisfy your concerns?


Do you happen to know of particular countries and laws which would restrict and hold the photographer accountable?

Is there one set of laws for the Eu community as yet? Any laws from Turkey or Arab countries, or any where else? OPF wants to comply at least with the laws of the USA, Canada the EU and as many other places as possible. So we need all of us to pitch in and share local expectations, rules, customs and laws; to be educated!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mostly for the USA and Canada. Anything prohibited here is likely illegal everywhere!

Let me state that no one should rely on this discussion as legal advice. We are just reporting what we believe to be true, not providing legal guidance. In addition, local authorities may enact laws, (some of which could be later fought in court) which are stricter but have not yet been challenged!) Beware of using set up for a professional shoot, with sound grips and many assistants, as there may be a legal requirement for City Permits!

In the USA and Canada especially:

  • In a public place, or clearly visible from a public space, there's no expectation of privacy. So pictures can be taken.

  • Pictures can be published without limit, but one can be held to account of the images are posted in such a way as to intentionally malign a person, for example, using a picture of a woman passing by to illustrate the subject of "being a hooker".

  • Public figures, TV personalities, movie stars and the like, may have less claim to privacy.

  • Pictures taken in public events are always assumed to be publishable, however, racing tracks, for example, may have exclusive agreements with photographers and stop you photographing or in a mall, escort you out. During that time, until you are out of the premises you can continue taking pictures, even of the security persons and their badge numbers. You cannot take pictures in a public, theater, school or sports facility restroom, changing room in a department store, for example, without a specific signed release by the subject beforehand, as there's expectation of privacy. I'd have a notice posted outside and chaperones to make sure folk knew about the shoot beforehand and don't accidentally get included.

  • Pictures can be taken, as many as one wishes, but one cannot block, harass, threaten or insult folk in the process. You can follow someone for a shot, but not doggedly to create fear. Children are best shot either with a long lens or else with the parents permission beforehand as it can be frightening to the parents who do not know your motives.

  • No one can demand your CF/SD card!

  • Erase images for people who kindly request it! It's good to feel courteous!

  • If it's art, you can post it anywhere you wish, with the caveat that you don't design the publication principally to defame or hurt them.

  • Always get consent if you have ideas of using the images for stock photography or other commercial use. Selling your art for $10,000 is not necessarily commercial use. but selling it for the label of a coffee beverage would be and you could be sorry if discovered.

  • Don't put yourself in danger and if in doubt, walk away or call the police to support your rights.


I added this just as a convenience for street shooters and to help folk outside the USA recognize and report to us those local rules which are stricter for photography than found in the USA.

This thrust of this thread remains the creation of a more protected section for street photography. So we need more ideas before we work out what our protected area might need!

Asher
 

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
Asher,

Why the 'Human Form as Art' Section? Because it is private.

You are only presenting the situation in the U.S. and Canada. The globe is a bit larger.

Take Germany: It is allowed to take pictures as long a nobody objects, but for publishing (what are we doing here?) you need a written permission in shape of a model release to be on the safe side.
Reason for this are privacy laws.

Take France: There are no explicit law preventing you from shooting, but publication is also an issue. This is not because of particular laws, but a series of lawsuits won by the people who objected publication.

In other European Countries there seems to be the same basic principle:
You can take a photo, but for publication you need a written permit.

What means posting a photo here in this forum? Publication!

I am a little surprised that you are not aware of this.

So a private space would reduce it from public to a cozy room where we share as a group but it would not be public and searchable.

For the record: I understand the motivation of these laws and I understand the interest in street shooting, doing it myself occasionally. So a private corner could resolve this.

I hope the written above can help you to see a bit more why people from other countries mostly refrained from posting street.

Best regards,
Michael
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
I believe that laws in France and Germany are much stricter than those that exist for photography in public places in the US.

Michael, if I understand his request correctly, would like a protected section in the OPF forums, where
street photography can be posted without being accessible to the public at large for viewing purposes.

I doubt very much that HCB would be able to photograph today what he did in his times in France.

It seems a valid and simple request, without compiling a list of international laws pertaining to photography. This is a forum for photography, for all to enjoy. Not The Hague.

Regards.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher,

Why the 'Human Form as Art' Section? Because it is private.
Why do you say it's private?

You are only presenting the situation in the U.S. and Canada. The globe is a bit larger.

Obviously and that's why I asked for information on local attitudes and requirements.

Take Germany: It is allowed to take pictures as long a nobody objects, but for publishing (what are we doing here?) you need a written permission in shape of a model release to be on the safe side.
Reason for this are privacy laws.

Take France: There are no explicit law preventing you from shooting, but publication is also an issue. This is not because of particular laws, but a series of lawsuits won by the people who objected publication.

Are there specific details we need to know and res lines not to cross that someone from the USA wouldn't likely experience in the USA?


What means posting a photo here in this forum? Publication!

I am a little surprised that you are not aware of this.

Of course I'm aware that we're publishing, LOL; but not of the strength of feelings of some European countries.

So a private space would reduce it from public to a cozy room where we share as a group but it would not be public and searchable.

I'm totally sympathetic, just need to consider way to do this.

I hope the written above can help you to see a bit more why people from other countries mostly refrained from posting street.

Yes, your information is very helpful.

Would limiting viewer to those fitting some criteria be needed to satisfy European concerns? If it's just to "have no search engine access", that we can do with no problem at all!

Asher
 

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
Asher,

I will not answer to all individual points above in a detailed way, I think they will be answered below anyway.

The subject of photography combined with privacy is widely discussed and I did not expect to have to into detail (The Hague) as I presumed that some of the points have already been discussed here.

A primer on the laws concerning photography and privacy can be found here. I strongly suggest to read it, as it helps for further discussing this subject. I am not a lawyer, but I can confirm what is written about Germany, maybe members reading this discussion can check and confirm or correct what is written about the laws and regulations in their country.

This is not primarily about the feelings, law is the more important point here. They determine the criteria of what can be done and what cannot.

So what is public and what is private? Difficult to draw a line for a forum like this one.
I think it is safe to assume that all content in the part accessible to everybody can be considered as public.

So what can be considered as private? Again - I am not a lawyer, but why did I refer to the 'Human Form as Art' section?
First - when you access the forum without logging in, this is marked as private.
What would be the best analogy?
You have to subscribe and to log in to view this section.
Anybody can subscribe - so is it public?
I did not check, but I presume that this part is not searchable.
Private then?

I would compare it to a place you can visit without being member and you are able to listen to discussions between members, but not raise your voice when you are not member.
There are rooms not accessible for you, but when you become a member you can go there without having a precise idea what is behind the door in beforehand to applying for membership.

Is this public? I would say not so much from an Internet point of view. There are hurdles to master before you can see something of which you don't know if you are looking for it.
Private could mean to exclude people who desire (to be a member) to enter these rooms.
So is it private if you apply stringent criteria for this label? Probably neither.

Still - this section prevents discussions and pictures to be seen by the occasional viewer and by the one looking for it using appropriate keywords.
For me this would be enough to protect privacy of a person shown in this section. Is this enough to comply with laws in Europe? I don't know - I am not a lawyer -, but I think it would be more difficult to attack it legally.

Hope that helps to illustrate.

Best Michael
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Michael,

Your remarks and the link are most helpful. We can simply devise a set of ethics for street photography we commit to. Allow me to respond as best I can in the order matters come to mind.

The areas of concern are the "photographs of private individuals which are recognizable" being "published". For other than North American locations, it appears that publishing the work is where permission might be required.

It would be great to have a legal definition from the European community of the word "Publishing". According to Wikipedia, not a legal source, of course, publishing is the activity of making information available to general public. If this is the same meaning under law in Europe, then OPF private fora would not be available to the general public. If Europeans might get opinions from local lawyers, that would be helpful, (in the U.K. it would be "solicitors" and "barristers", I guess).

I found a very useful discussion in Photo.net. here.

In OPF, it's the responsibility of photographers to make sure that their action in taking pictures does not include breaking local laws!

This could be as different as photographing someone in a their darkened car at night or else disturbing the nest of some protected species or else getting too close to bears, (so that they become used to people - something that ends up with animals attacking and then animals getting shot). So we cannot possibly police even one single person preparing to take their pictures under so many varied circumstances all over the planet! Thus it remains exclusively the illegal responsibility of every person to act within the laws of the place they choose to take pictures! We have to assume that the photographer is moral, ethical and a responsible member of society, obeying the expected norms and laws. All the same, if we actually come to discover that a picture is clearly unethical, we'd remove it.

We can, of course, have a private artistic area, but I cannot guarantee that some officious person won't claim, in some sympathetic jurisdiction, that the picture has indeed been "published" as opposed to exhibited as art in a private collection.

So it remains to the individual photographer to act in a responsible way. Get permission beforehand or consent afterwards and have a card, perhaps with an offer of a free picture in return.

Maybe we could design a simple photography consent card with an attached numbered studio business card which gives consent for photography and publication in return for free prints?

I will ask legal advice on this, but of course, it will be of limited use to those outside of the USA. Still this discussion will help us face this important question.

Asher
 
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