Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
Hi Rhys,
Allow me to ask a serious question; how does one get screwed on a freebie?
Seriously, I have an almost insatiable urge to see everything as a learning experience.
Bart
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- Thread starter Rhys Sage
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Hi Rhys,
Allow me to ask a serious question; how does one get screwed on a freebie?
Seriously, I have an almost insatiable urge to see everything as a learning experience.
Bart
Easily... It costs me money to drive anywhere then to have a no-show client or somebody uncooperative or something else...
People value only that for which they actually pay.
Let's see what my freebie experiences were...
1. Somebody that wanted a bridal shower shot. It was all agreed. I turned up and was told to XYZ off and that somebody else was going to do the photography. Nobody had told me!
2. Somebody wanted TFP. I said OK then found them refusing to pay for a studio and refusing to do it in their home and refusing to do it outside - not only that but they wanted to bring half a dozen "friends" along. I declined that kind offer - although I am perfectly entitled to shoot villains dead in my own home, I'm not inclined to let villains in nor to let them know where my home is. Also, while I have no objection whatsoever to shooting villains dead and even have a concealed weapons permit - I just don't want to be in a situation where I have to.
3. More bookings with no-show TFP models etc.
And a whole load of other stuff too...
Not just that but - and this is the killer - when they know you're undercharging they'll be more likely to be obstreperous and awkward. Sure - I know I am undercharging but that's for a darned good reason.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Rhys,
That happens more than you'd imagine. Different folk in the arrangements for the party panic and invite their own "someone to cover the photography". Meanwhile one person hires pro! So of course, the volunteer has to be dismissed. The solution is call before hand and confirm that you will be the only photographer! If it's a friend, assume that you may be displaced. It happens, we just have to get over it!
TFP's are full of pitfalls and that's a separate subject. However, this I can say. If you need a model or MUA for TFP, you must arrange for 2-3 for every single position you need. No shows or 1 hour late is par for the course.
We can discuss free services and TFP's here.
Asher
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Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So this pretty well answers my question and the info orientates us. You are now at the edge of American wedding photography. You are essentially nibbling at the prospect of a full scale approach. I'd do your quickie wedding photography, (if that's what you must do), but under a different DBA name. Looking at your website, that's way more potential for you in a formal wedding. I like the impression your website gives. There's one big issue I see in how you price your services for weddings. I notice that you hold nothing back as leverage for more income! if you immediately give away full size jpgs, then what incentive is there for anyone to buy prints from you? Either "front load" your fees more or else don't give away full size jpgs. anyway, that's what I think. Your website is otherwise very clear and professional. It would be nice to have some formal wedding shots too if you have them available. I'd go over the pictures to make sure that people in the shadows clearly shown.
Are you from outside of the USA and just new to the scene here? I looked again at your website for your wedding pictures. I noticed you used the specification of 10"x8" which is the way an 8"x10" print is reported in the U.K. So are you from the U.K.? That, alone might explain the disparate view we have on prices.
Asher
I'm British (as it says in the bio on my website) and came here a couple of years ago. It's been an interesting transition coming from Britain. I could go into that but it's largely political. Essentially, in Britain I came from a city recently listed as the 5th most miserable place to live. There, you had to hide everything - it was pretty much like the Baltic states - anything visible got stolen or vandalised. Pockets got picked and the liberal state would punish anybody that apprehended a criminal rather than the criminal. And, of course, the police would tut-tut anybody that showed them up for being lazy, idle, corrupt and useless. It is nice to be able to go out and to know that I can carry the tools to defend myself if needed. Interestingly I find people generally more honest here in the US.
Yes. In Britain we charge what we think the product is worth. We don't charge as much as we possibly can get away with - on the basis that while we get more work that way, we also get slightly more money overall.
Kathy Rappaport
pro member
Not so much here. We live in a small town - event in big cities - and people talk. Once they find out you're cheap, they will never pay what we think it's worth. Go join in at www.digitalweddingforum.com and then you will get the full perspective.
Ben Rubinstein
pro member
Rhys, I started out cheap, though nowhere near as cheap as you and didn't get very far. I even advertised myself as Budget Photography. After a few people banged my head against the wall I started again under a new name, under a new brand and with prices which though cheap for what they gave, still were more than competitive with my competitors in town. One of them, the guy I had learned under and apprenticed with before starting, gave up his wedding business and gave me his client list. I am now in the fortunate position of turning away more work that I can accept.
I live in Jerusalem but still work in the UK, I commute to work and come home for the weekend. Sounds tough but as wedding work is seasonal I get about 6 months a year at home. People ask me why I don't work out here. I'll tell you why. The market is saturated with photographers shooting and burning for a price which makes no economic sense. Seriously, their prices are not enough to pay for the investment, depreciation and insurance of their gear. The way they make money is by shooting a huge amount of weddings, one a day and provide mediocre quality. As such they burn out very fast.
You have to look at wedding photography as a purely business venture. Your equipment costs X, the equipment loses X in depreciation each month, your insurance costs X a month. Add to that your past spending in learning your photography until you got to the stage that you are at now. Your computer equipment and software all cost money and every second of time you spend at that computer is worth money. Advertising is an expense. Taxes, the cost of a bigger car than you would otherwise have needed to carry the equipment, the cost of having backup equipment that depreciates while sitting there never being used, etc, etc. A business phone line, the list just goes on and none of the above is in any way thought of by people considering prices similar to the ones you are.
I was earning good money for 3 years before I had paid off all my debts and equipment investment and a year after till I was doing any more than just meeting my bills. That was after having spent a year apprenticing so that my face was known in the community and I had a boss sending me jobs he was too busy to do, i.e. with an established pro's recommendation. I am now just making enough to put aside a bit and my prices cannot go further up for another 5 years or so.
When you consider the above you realise that you are losing money hand over fist. Yes you may be getting money at the end of the day but you paid for that equipment, that learning, those expenses out of your pocket (possibly with the excuse that it was your hobby) and that means that the notes held in your hand are a lie.
Let me give you an example. I'm about to do rennovations to my flat here in Jerusalem possibly preparatory to selling it. I'm going to change the flooring and piping, redo the electrics from scratch and install air conditioning. All this I'm paying for with cash, money I made in the last season. If I sell the flat I will get X amount of money. With the rennovations I'll probably get the money I spent back but no more. When I sell the flat and have that bit of extra cash in my hand I could say, wow, I've made profit, my bank account is bigger by X due to my work. I now have X more money to spend on something nice. But it's a lie, I had to spend the money to get it back. Yes I had it to spend but what I recieve back isn't profit.
You could successfully argue that you are taking so little money, or losing money to gain the experience. That isn't business though, it's investment in education and the return will, can, only come when you start making real money.
My advice would be to apprentice with a known photographer until you have the experience and portfolio to start properly and at real prices. You will get paid for your work, you get to use anothers equipment and are in essence gaining all that you would be doing by lowballing, but without losing money. It's a far cheaper and more intelligent way of getting the education.
I live in Jerusalem but still work in the UK, I commute to work and come home for the weekend. Sounds tough but as wedding work is seasonal I get about 6 months a year at home. People ask me why I don't work out here. I'll tell you why. The market is saturated with photographers shooting and burning for a price which makes no economic sense. Seriously, their prices are not enough to pay for the investment, depreciation and insurance of their gear. The way they make money is by shooting a huge amount of weddings, one a day and provide mediocre quality. As such they burn out very fast.
You have to look at wedding photography as a purely business venture. Your equipment costs X, the equipment loses X in depreciation each month, your insurance costs X a month. Add to that your past spending in learning your photography until you got to the stage that you are at now. Your computer equipment and software all cost money and every second of time you spend at that computer is worth money. Advertising is an expense. Taxes, the cost of a bigger car than you would otherwise have needed to carry the equipment, the cost of having backup equipment that depreciates while sitting there never being used, etc, etc. A business phone line, the list just goes on and none of the above is in any way thought of by people considering prices similar to the ones you are.
I was earning good money for 3 years before I had paid off all my debts and equipment investment and a year after till I was doing any more than just meeting my bills. That was after having spent a year apprenticing so that my face was known in the community and I had a boss sending me jobs he was too busy to do, i.e. with an established pro's recommendation. I am now just making enough to put aside a bit and my prices cannot go further up for another 5 years or so.
When you consider the above you realise that you are losing money hand over fist. Yes you may be getting money at the end of the day but you paid for that equipment, that learning, those expenses out of your pocket (possibly with the excuse that it was your hobby) and that means that the notes held in your hand are a lie.
Let me give you an example. I'm about to do rennovations to my flat here in Jerusalem possibly preparatory to selling it. I'm going to change the flooring and piping, redo the electrics from scratch and install air conditioning. All this I'm paying for with cash, money I made in the last season. If I sell the flat I will get X amount of money. With the rennovations I'll probably get the money I spent back but no more. When I sell the flat and have that bit of extra cash in my hand I could say, wow, I've made profit, my bank account is bigger by X due to my work. I now have X more money to spend on something nice. But it's a lie, I had to spend the money to get it back. Yes I had it to spend but what I recieve back isn't profit.
You could successfully argue that you are taking so little money, or losing money to gain the experience. That isn't business though, it's investment in education and the return will, can, only come when you start making real money.
My advice would be to apprentice with a known photographer until you have the experience and portfolio to start properly and at real prices. You will get paid for your work, you get to use anothers equipment and are in essence gaining all that you would be doing by lowballing, but without losing money. It's a far cheaper and more intelligent way of getting the education.
nicolas claris
OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Ben
your kind contribution is absolutely on track…
You did summarize very well!
your kind contribution is absolutely on track…
You did summarize very well!
Ben Rubinstein
pro member
I just edited the post to add an example.
When I stop messing around being a wedding photographer I'm going to do what I really want and teach. For this incredibly lazy guy with a natural bent to teaching (so they tell me) the ability to work for hours sitting on my bum while patronising others would be just short of heaven! :-D
When I stop messing around being a wedding photographer I'm going to do what I really want and teach. For this incredibly lazy guy with a natural bent to teaching (so they tell me) the ability to work for hours sitting on my bum while patronising others would be just short of heaven! :-D