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  #31  
Old October 20th, 2018, 02:52 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
My reasoning is that a larger sensor gathers more light.
As Doug explained, things are a bit more complex. Light is gathered by the lens. Most film medium format lens are not very fast, so the camera does not gather more light than a smaller one.

You could also see it in the following manner. For film cameras, the same "sensor" (the same film) was used in different sizes. The exposure of the film needed to be exactly the same or the film would be over- or underexposed. Therefore, per unit of surface, all cameras needed to gather the same amount or light (for a given film sensitivity).

Under these assumptions, a camera with film twice as large would "gather twice as much light". Is that what you meant?
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  #32  
Old October 20th, 2018, 04:11 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
As Doug explained, things are a bit more complex. Light is gathered by the lens. Most film medium format lens are not very fast, so the camera does not gather more light than a smaller one.

You could also see it in the following manner. For film cameras, the same "sensor" (the same film) was used in different sizes. The exposure of the film needed to be exactly the same or the film would be over- or underexposed. Therefore, per unit of surface, all cameras needed to gather the same amount or light (for a given film sensitivity).

Under these assumptions, a camera with film twice as large would "gather twice as much light". Is that what you meant?
To be absolutely clear to others, may we modify that “twice” to 4x the smaller size film, as you are working “per unit area” in your stipulation?

Asher
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  #33  
Old October 20th, 2018, 05:58 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
To be absolutely clear to others, may we modify that “twice” to 4x the smaller size film, as you are working “per unit area” in your stipulation?
Well, I meant twice as large in surface, which is √2 as much in each dimension. But a film twice as long in any dimension would have 4 times the area.
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  #34  
Old October 20th, 2018, 10:24 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
As Doug explained, things are a bit more complex. Light is gathered by the lens. Most film medium format lens are not very fast, so the camera does not gather more light than a smaller one.

You could also see it in the following manner. For film cameras, the same "sensor" (the same film) was used in different sizes. The exposure of the film needed to be exactly the same or the film would be over- or underexposed. Therefore, per unit of surface, all cameras needed to gather the same amount or light (for a given film sensitivity).

Under these assumptions, a camera with film twice as large would "gather twice as much light". Is that what you meant?
"Hasselblad says. “Hasselblad’s large sensors mean a higher pixel count and a larger pixel size. With larger pixels, more light is recorded, enabling the sensor to provide better light gathering power."
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  #35  
Old October 20th, 2018, 11:57 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
"Hasselblad says. “Hasselblad’s large sensors mean a higher pixel count and a larger pixel size. With larger pixels, more light is recorded, enabling the sensor to provide better light gathering power."

Hasselblad may write so if they wish and, technically, their saying does not contradict the laws of physics but is misleading nonetheless. Which is a bit silly of them, because their cameras are really, really good.
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  #36  
Old October 20th, 2018, 12:00 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Jerome,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Hasselblad may write so if they wish and, technically, their saying does not contradict the laws of physics but is misleading nonetheless. Which is a bit silly of them, because their cameras are really, really good.
Yes, their point is valid, but their expression of it is careless.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #37  
Old October 20th, 2018, 08:27 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Default Coming Soon

ZEISS ZX1 Digital Camera


Product Highlights

37.4MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor
ZEISS Distagon T* 35mm f/2 Lens
Leaf Shutter and Physical Exposure Dials
0.74x Full HD OLED Electronic Viewfinder
4.34" Touchscreen LCD with Tool Bar
ISO 80-51200, 3 fps Continuous Shooting
Integrated Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC
Built-In Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Internal 512GB SSD Storage
USB Type-C Terminal

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  #38  
Old October 21st, 2018, 03:55 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Nice concept camera.

Does it come with a perpetual upgrade license for Adobe products or added on to the as yet undisclosed price of this offering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
ZEISS ZX1 Digital Camera


Product Highlights

37.4MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor
ZEISS Distagon T* 35mm f/2 Lens
Leaf Shutter and Physical Exposure Dials
0.74x Full HD OLED Electronic Viewfinder
4.34" Touchscreen LCD with Tool Bar
ISO 80-51200, 3 fps Continuous Shooting
Integrated Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC
Built-In Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Internal 512GB SSD Storage
USB Type-C Terminal

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  #39  
Old October 21st, 2018, 07:53 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Nice concept camera.

Does it come with a perpetual upgrade license for Adobe products or added on to the as yet undisclosed price of this offering?

Not sure about the license or the price. No memory card or slot?

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photog...hotokina-2018/


Best ,regards
James
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  #40  
Old October 21st, 2018, 05:08 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Well here is another one...a concept?

https://pixii.fr/#specifications
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  #41  
Old October 21st, 2018, 06:26 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, James,

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
ZEISS ZX1 Digital Camera


Product Highlights

37.4MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor
ZEISS Distagon T* 35mm f/2 Lens
Leaf Shutter and Physical Exposure Dials
0.74x Full HD OLED Electronic Viewfinder
4.34" Touchscreen LCD with Tool Bar
ISO 80-51200, 3 fps Continuous Shooting
Integrated Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC
Built-In Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Internal 512GB SSD Storage
USB Type-C Terminal

The nice thing about a 35 mm f/2 lens is that the entrance pupil is only 17.5 mm in diameter, so this piece of modern art can have a very small-looking hole in its front.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #42  
Old October 21st, 2018, 07:35 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Well here is another one...a concept?

https://pixii.fr/#specifications

I will believe it when I see it at the camera store.

Best, regards
James
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  #43  
Old October 21st, 2018, 09:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hi, James,

Product Highlights

37.4MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor
ZEISS Distagon T* 35mm f/2 Lens
Leaf Shutter and Physical Exposure Dials
0.74x Full HD OLED Electronic Viewfinder
4.34" Touchscreen LCD with Tool Bar
ISO 80-51200, 3 fps Continuous Shooting
Integrated Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC
Built-In Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Internal 512GB SSD Storage
USB Type-C Terminal


The nice thing about a 35 mm f/2 lens is that the entrance pupil is only 17.5 mm in diameter, so this piece of modern art can have a very small-looking hole in its front.

Best regards,

Doug
I believe it!

Why not? Billions believe in far more magical things!

Reasonable for first quarter 2019!

Asher
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  #44  
Old October 21st, 2018, 10:13 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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[QUOTE=Asher Kelman;186326]


Asher Kelman: The Great Hall, University of Birmingham U.K.

2017, Ricoh GR GXR APS-C "50mm Lens-Sensor module"
1/2000 sec f= 7.1 ISO 320 3 Images Stitched in Auto Pano Giga



Why did I choose this particular camera?

I liked the stellar 50 mm lens and sealed sensor to match. I have 2 zoom modules for near and far. I need the APS-C model at 28mm to complete my happiness.

I mostly just use the 50mm as it is fairly small and the electronic eye viewfinder means that the back LCD does not light up in a concert!

I would love to see updates to the sensors!

Asher
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  #45  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 12:36 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
ZEISS ZX1 Digital Camera


Product Highlights

37.4MP Full-Frame CMOS Sensor
ZEISS Distagon T* 35mm f/2 Lens
Leaf Shutter and Physical Exposure Dials
0.74x Full HD OLED Electronic Viewfinder
4.34" Touchscreen LCD with Tool Bar
ISO 80-51200, 3 fps Continuous Shooting
Integrated Adobe Photoshop Lightroom CC
Built-In Wi-Fi and Bluetooth
Internal 512GB SSD Storage
USB Type-C Terminal

The RX-1, for comparison:


(image from: https://cameracreativ.de/vergleichen...oder-zeiss-zx1)
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  #46  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 01:08 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Jerome,

You are right pointing out the discrepancy. In fact you are mostly always pretty well on the mark.

But perhaps we get to forgive the Zeiss by having a 500GB SSD built in and a 4” screen.

It will have to really work well with Lightroom to be worthwhile as it’s essentially a pregnant mobile with no phone function butca dsmn good lens!

We understand the RX1. It’s an advance on existing camera forms we are so used to and we really don’t mind using SD cards. We just like 2 slots if possible.

For fun, having filters on a mobile phone works. But a camera meant to be a portable hardy pro camera better be able to do professional processing to justify the bulk compared to the highly refined and compact RX1.

It could just be that the physical design is so practical with a handgrip and the menu and controls so intuitive that the size actually is what translates into a professional user experience that makes it all so obviously worthwhile. That is yet to be demonstrated!

Asher
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  #47  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:13 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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From a style standpoint, the Zeiss ZX1 looks like what an industrial designer in the "good old days" might have carved out of balsa wood (and then spray painted) to show colleagues the first general concept of his new design. "You see, over here we can fit the battery."

Best regards,

Doug
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  #48  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 11:32 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
From a style standpoint, the Zeiss ZX1 looks like what an industrial designer in the "good old days" might have carved out of balsa wood (and then spray painted) to show colleagues the first general concept of his new design. "You see, over here we can fit the battery."

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

Just remember, some of the best boat designers, simply carved their sketches and these were copied by draughtsmen and then the details were built into those curves.



Proposed New Zeiss Form




I have no doubt that the Walt Disney Concert Hall and other signature landmark architecture buildings around the world by Frank Gehry, were designed as shapes and then others had to "make it work" and often with compromises on function.




© Hugo Zhang 2007 Walt Disney Concert Hall Chamonox 7x17



What counts with this new Zeiss concept is whether or not it is practical in the hands of professional level photographers and the controls can work in cold weather and with male or female hands. Then does the 500GB hard drive and the over 4" touch screen and Photoshop Lightroom really bring enough advantages to serious photographers with an actual job to accomplish over a perfectly matured Sony RX1 that is far more compact and has a reputation already for functional excellence.




(image from: https://cameracreativ.de/vergleichen...oder-zeiss-zx1)




If the camera with Lightroom and WIFI makes workflow more efficient, it will be a success, beyond those who admire the sculptural finest and simplicity of the new beautiful camera!

Asher
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  #49  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 01:06 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post


What counts with this new Zeiss concept is whether or not it is practical… and with male of female hands.

Asher
Asher,
You wrote :
Quote:
male of female hands
but i imagine you meant
Quote:
male oR female hands
I don't get it…
Photography wise (and many many other wise(s) what is the difference between male and female hands?
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  #50  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 01:28 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Asher,
You wrote : but i imagine you meant
I don't get it…
Photography wise (and many many other wise(s) what is the difference between male and female hands?
Good point, Nicolas!

In general, males are built sturdier than females. In general the hands of women tend to be slender while men are more likely to have broader hands and thicker fingers.

My prejudice is that camera designers are mostly trying to make camera to fit the bulkier hands of men. That in itself is a challenge as there is a variety in length of fingers and where the joint are!

So whether or not males and females will happen to have hands that fit this novel bulky Zeiss “art form” design is an open question. If the camera is very efficient to use in menu and button setup, we accept we just have to “learn to live with” the designer shape.

By contrast, with the variety of lightweight to sturdier Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax and other cameras, folk have gradually been trained to certain shapes they manage to adapt to.

If a new camera arrives with a novel shape, such as the Sigma Merrill or this new Sony 500GB “pregnant mobile phone” form, then it is an “unknown” how folk will get their “memory-laden” hands around the new Zeiss offering.

“Hand-fit” will be very different for everyone, male and female, and that could be an improvement or something that turns folk away!

Asher
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  #51  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 02:39 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Jerome,

You are right pointing out the discrepancy. In fact you are mostly always pretty well on the mark.

But perhaps we get to forgive the Zeiss by having a 500GB SSD built in and a 4” screen.
The screen can only be as large as the camera, but for the 500GB SSD, may I suggest this?

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  #52  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 03:39 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The screen can only be as large as the camera, but for the 500GB SSD, may I suggest this?

Yes, and the PNY claims to be 10% faster and costs less!

But, likely as not, the designers had started out at a time when a 500 GB SD card was something only a Royal Prince could buy!

Unless the SSD is able to move data at something 300 MB/Sec to process in Lightroom in almost real time, the SSD doesn’t earn its keep! If it’s designed well, they can add the fastest available SSD for their production run....hopefully!

Asher
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  #53  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:22 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Default More is Better

Size Matters!



Panasonic Unveils Its First Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera System
The New LUMIX S Series
Panasonic Corporation has developed two models of its first Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera with a 35 mm full-frame image sensor, the LUMIX S1R and the S1. These models are equipped with the world's first*1 4K 60p/50p video recording function and the Dual I.S. image stabilization system. As part of the LUMIX S series, Panasonic aims to release them on the global market early 2019.

For 100 years since its founding, Panasonic has strived to help realize better lives for customers around the world by responding to their needs. Working on the concept of creating a new photo culture in the digital era with digital cameras, in 2008 Panasonic released the LUMIX G1, the world's first*2 Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera. Over the ten years since then, Panasonic has continued to lead the industry with product innovations, such as the world's first*3 camera supporting 4K video recording, and cameras equipped with the Dual I.S. (Image Stabilization) system, combining stabilization both inside the camera unit and the lens.

In recent years, as telecommunications lines increase in speed while sharing of video via social media gains in popularity, more and more people are enjoying a hybrid of photos and videos, widening the range of expression in the production of contents. A new type of camera is needed for this new field that goes beyond the boundaries of photos and videos.

Against this background, Panasonic adopted the concept of ‘Fuel the Photographers' creative vision’ to develop a Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera with a strong focus on the expressive capabilities for both photos and videos. The company will bring these cameras to market as part of the LUMIX S series, striving to provide "specialized value" to customers desiring higher expressiveness. The cameras have the user-friendliness and robustness essential as tools for photography or videography by professionals, while also incorporating an entire array of Panasonic technology refined over a century in the consumer electronics business and ten years developing Digital Single Lens Mirrorless cameras: digital technology like image or signal processing, plus optical and heat dispersion technology and more. The combination of these will provide customers with new value for photography and videography.

The key features of the newly developed cameras, the LUMIX S1R and the S1, are as follows.

Expressive capabilities with high definition and high level of expression achieved with the newly-developed 35 mm full-frame image sensor and image processing engine.
(Effective pixels: approximately 47M for the S1R and 24M for the S1)
World's first*1 support for 4K 60p/50p video recording in a full-frame Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera.
World's first*1 full-frame camera equipped with Dual I.S. (Image Stabilization), enabling handheld shots for dark or distant scenes that would previously have required a tripod or other equipment.
A double slot for XQD memory cards and SD memory cards, the first for Panasonic; and a rugged triaxial tilt LCD, emphasizing ease of use and supporting professional photography and videography.
Leica Camera's L-Mount, making it possible to use interchangeable lenses that meet the L-Mount specifications of the partners*4 Leica Camera and Sigma. Expressiveness is further enhanced by increasing options for interchangeable lenses.

Panasonic will also expand its lineup of LUMIX S series compatible lenses, developing more than ten by 2020, including a 50 mm/F1.4 single focal length lens, 24-105 mm standard zoom lens, and 70-200 mm telephoto zoom lens.

For the LUMIX G series of Micro Four Thirds Digital Single Lens Mirrorless cameras, Panasonic has started developing a LEICA DG VARIO-SUMMILUX 10-25 mm F1.7 lens that will achieve the world's first*5 zoom with maximum aperture of F1.7 for the entire range. On top of this, the support services for professional photographers, which started in Japan in April last year, will be available in Europe and the United States this year.

The LUMIX GH5, G9, and GH5S high-end Digital Single Lens Mirrorless cameras that Panasonic has steadily released since 2017 have already gained a solid reputation among professionals and high-level amateurs across the world for the quality of their pictures and ability to capture the vitality and beauty of life. This success owes to Panasonic's world-first*6 support for 4K 60p/50p video recording, and the world's fastest autofocus*7 function using the company's proprietary DFD(Depth From Defocus) technology. Panasonic will continue to provide new value to customers through the unique features of the compact yet high-definition LUMIX G series, while also reaching the professional market through the introduction of the full-frame LUMIX S series and the greater reach of the company’s support system. Through these measures, Panasonic will help to create a new culture of photography and videography.

Prototypes of the new cameras and lenses introduced above will be exhibited at Photokina 2018.*8
Notes:
*1. World's first support for 4K 60p/50p video recording in a full-frame Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera. Regarding the inclusion of the Dual I.S. image stabilization system, this is for a full-frame Digital Interchangeable Lens System Camera. As of September 25, 2018 when announced in Germany, according to Panasonic data.
*2.For a Digital Interchangeable Lens System Camera. As of September 12, 2008, according to Panasonic data.
*3.The GH4 Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera capable of 4K video (as a Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera, as of February 7, 2014), and the GX8 Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera with Dual I.S. onboard (as a Digital Interchangeable Lens System Camera, as of July 16, 2015), according to Panasonic data.
*4. “The L-Mount Alliance: a strategic cooperation between Leica Camera, Panasonic and Sigma”(announced on September 25, 2018 in Germany)
*5.For an interchangeable lens for use with a Digital Interchangeable Lens System Camera. As of September 25, 2018 when announced in Germany, according to Panasonic data.
*6.As a Digital Single Lens Mirrorless camera. As of January 4, 2017, according to Panasonic data.
*7.For a Digital Interchangeable Lens System Camera. As of November 8, 2017, according to Panasonic data.
*8.Photokina is a leading exhibition for the photographic and imaging industries (to be held through September 26 to September 29 in 2018, at the Koelnmesse in Cologne, Germany).

• Leica is a registered trademark of Leica Microsystems IR GmbH.
• SUMMILUX and L-Mount are registered trademarks of Leica Camera AG
.

https://shop.panasonic.com/lumixs
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  #54  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:31 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I am happy to see an ecosystem with 3 strong players, Panasonic, Leica and Sigma! That in itself promises a rich an well integrated set of capabilities.

It's counterintuitive that we need yet another full frame digital camera! These manufacturers seem to think its worth their while! Is it that they feel that Canon and Nikon have wised their long time lead in this field and the trio can out compete them with Leica giving the ultimate Panache, Panasonic the largest most versatile manufacturing systems and Sigma by just doing lenses, able to out smart the big guys with capable art and nature lenses that are 1/2 the price or less!


Asher
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  #55  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:33 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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[QUOTE=Asher Kelman;187512]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post


Asher Kelman: The Great Hall, University of Birmingham U.K.

2017, Ricoh GR GXR APS-C "50mm Lens-Sensor module"
1/2000 sec f= 7.1 ISO 320 3 Images Stitched in Auto Pano Giga



Why did I choose this particular camera?

I liked the stellar 50 mm lens and sealed sensor to match. I have 2 zoom modules for near and far. I need the APS-C model at 28mm to complete my happiness.

I mostly just use the 50mm as it is fairly small and the electronic eye viewfinder means that the back LCD does not light up in a concert!

I would love to see updates to the sensors!

Asher

Nice photo Asher! That is an ominous looking sky, it appears as though something diabolical is about to happen.

Best, regards
James
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  #56  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:39 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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[QUOTE=James Lemon;187532]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post


Nice photo Asher! That is an ominous looking sky, it appears as though something diabolical is about to happen.

Best, regards
James
Yes,

They developed key separations for the first atom bomb and transfusions among other shocking matters!

Most of the witches in the world still look up to the old lady who showed the world how to prepare Digitalis from the foxgloves of the woodlands, close by! She made Sir William withering famous!

Asher
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  #57  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:40 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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As to the value of the new Pano-Leica-Sigma Camera!

I just wonder how the various 43-50MP cameras currently offered differ in noise and quality of files. I also an interested to know how unique any of the results would be that one could ever again identify an camera from its picture.

Perhaps it doesn't matter, but it does make me long for Cibachrome, Polaroid and archaic alternative processes!
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  #58  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 06:51 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I am happy to see an ecosystem with 3 strong players, Panasonic, Leica and Sigma! That in itself promises a rich an well integrated set of capabilities.
L mount: very interesting. 20 mm back flange.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #59  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 07:05 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hi, Asher,



L mount: very interesting. 20 mm back flange.

Best regards,

Doug
That means that many existing lenses can be adapted to focus at infinity, as long as there is enough metal in the junctions, say 10mm, to form the junction between the two! For information on possibilities using a table of almost all common candidates, look at Brian Smith’s site here

Asher
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  #60  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 08:09 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hi, Asher,



L mount: very interesting. 20 mm back flange.

Best regards,

Doug
The L mount was designed for the Leica SL,TL and CL systems, essentially auto focus for their loyal leica users wanting something more than th M mount.Panasonic is strongly involved in the design and production of the SL system and its lenses.

Best, regards
James
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