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  #1  
Old July 10th, 2013, 12:41 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Default Help with choice of printer

Hi Guys,

This is not actually for me but for the man that does my framing. He wants to buy a professional printer that prints mostly canvas, some watercolor papers. He's looking for something that can print 24" - 30" which means he would probably need something that prints 36" taking in consideration he needs extra to wrap the canvas.

Now, I've a small printer, 13 x 19, Epson and I love it and have used Epson before and always loved their printers. I do however not know anything about these much bigger and much more expensive printers.

I'm feeling a bit of pressure to help him choose something that he will be happy with.

So far, I think the Espon 9890 (9 inks - 44 inches wide) and the Espon 9900 (11 inks - 44 inches wide)
seem to be good choices. Both are pigment-ink based, which I believe is what should be used on canvas.

Does anyone have any experience with these types of printers?

If yes, should I be looking at a different brand?

Besides a computer and a scanner for art works, any other equipment needed that needs to be taken into consideration?

Since most of the works are reproduced on canvas, is the 11 inks really necessary?

Any information would be appreciated.
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  #2  
Old July 11th, 2013, 06:33 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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As far as I know, the 11 inks are not needed for most print jobs. however for exacting reproductions of paintings, the extra inks might have an advantage.

The big thing is to get the right drivers. There's an article on Luminous Landscape about a year ago, describing a RIP package that was outstanding. as soon as I find the article, I'll post it.

Meanwhile, there's a lot of the older printers on the market that just need cleaning and to be kept moist if in the desert so as not to clog up the lines. Many folk buy the machines but then don't use them. A used 44" Epson 8 ink machine is about $1400 to 2400. Sometimes with lots of ink and paper.

As a start, try this. The RIP may be more important than the extra inks!

Asher
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  #3  
Old July 12th, 2013, 01:04 AM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Thanks, Asher, I will go and read the article.
:-)
Maggie
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  #4  
Old August 16th, 2013, 04:45 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie Terlecki View Post
Hi Guys,

This is not actually for me but for the man that does my framing. He wants to buy a professional printer that prints mostly canvas, some watercolor papers. He's looking for something that can print 24" - 30" which means he would probably need something that prints 36" taking in consideration he needs extra to wrap the canvas.

Now, I've a small printer, 13 x 19, Epson and I love it and have used Epson before and always loved their printers. I do however not know anything about these much bigger and much more expensive printers.

I'm feeling a bit of pressure to help him choose something that he will be happy with.

So far, I think the Espon 9890 (9 inks - 44 inches wide) and the Espon 9900 (11 inks - 44 inches wide)
seem to be good choices. Both are pigment-ink based, which I believe is what should be used on canvas.

Does anyone have any experience with these types of printers?

If yes, should I be looking at a different brand?

Besides a computer and a scanner for art works, any other equipment needed that needs to be taken into consideration?

Since most of the works are reproduced on canvas, is the 11 inks really necessary?

Any information would be appreciated.
Maggie, I use Epson 9900... I print there all the painting reproduction I do with my Imacon 528c MFDB and my Contax 645 or my Fuji GX680, but also all my wedding albums.... The printer is superb as long as the profile is correct and the monitor used perfectly calibrated... I use EIZO 242 on the previous Mac Pro (the 2x2.93 Nehalem version) to monitor what I am printing and I am very satisfied of the combination.

Especially with painting reproduction, I have many times achieved to print accurately Byzantine paintings that include gold (it depends on the type of gold it has been used by the painter) or silver using Hannemule's "Daguerre" 350gr. fine art canvas. I strongly recommend that, or the (I believe identical in other than the size) Epson 7900 if smaller will do. They are excellent for both colour & B&W printing on Fine art Matte paper too, both with "Matte Black" inks profile, or with "Photo black"....
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  #5  
Old August 17th, 2013, 12:04 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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The Epson 9890 apparently still wastes ink when switching between matte and glossy paper, which can be a factor if you change papers often.

As to the number of inks, I don't feel it should involve much additional costs. You may need to store more reserve cartridges, but the printer do not lay more ink on the paper.

I have first hand experience with a Canon IPF 6300. Great machine with 12 inks, but support from the paper manufacturers is not as common as with Epson printers (I also use an Epson 3880). I never print on canvas, but I know that Canon sells some for their line of printers.

With printers larger than 62cm (24"), you lose the ability to print on sheets.
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  #6  
Old August 17th, 2013, 02:08 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The Epson 9890 apparently still wastes ink when switching between matte and glossy paper, which can be a factor if you change papers often.

As to the number of inks, I don't feel it should involve much additional costs. You may need to store more reserve cartridges, but the printer do not lay more ink on the paper.

I have first hand experience with a Canon IPF 6300. Great machine with 12 inks, but support from the paper manufacturers is not as common as with Epson printers (I also use an Epson 3880). I never print on canvas, but I know that Canon sells some for their line of printers.

With printers larger than 62cm (24"), you lose the ability to print on sheets.
Jerome, I believe that there are both "photo black" and "matte black" ink profiles for most fine art matte papers... (at least there are on the ones I use), in fact I use both of those to save ink... Whenever I am printing on semi-matte or semi-gloss for customers (I avoid using these for my purposes) and have to use matte paper for another assignment, I keep the "photo black" inks for the matte paper too (using the appropriate profile for "photo-black"), whenever I print Canvas (with "matte black" inks) and have to use matte paper, I print it with "matte black" ink profile (and the appropriate profile for matte black)... In fact the printer is always on "photo-black" and I change to "matte black" for Canvas only.... then it stays there for as long as there will be a semi-matte or semi-gloss paper requirement.
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  #7  
Old August 17th, 2013, 09:39 AM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Maggie, I use Epson 9900... I print there all the painting reproduction I do with my Imacon 528c MFDB and my Contax 645 or my Fuji GX680, but also all my wedding albums.... The printer is superb as long as the profile is correct and the monitor used perfectly calibrated... I use EIZO 242 on the previous Mac Pro (the 2x2.93 Nehalem version) to monitor what I am printing and I am very satisfied of the combination.

Especially with painting reproduction, I have many times achieved to print accurately Byzantine paintings that include gold (it depends on the type of gold it has been used by the painter) or silver using Hannemule's "Daguerre" 350gr. fine art canvas. I strongly recommend that, or the (I believe identical in other than the size) Epson 7900 if smaller will do. They are excellent for both colour & B&W printing on Fine art Matte paper too, both with "Matte Black" inks profile, or with "Photo black"....
Thank you Theordoros, this is so helpful. I've read a lot but not had the opportunity to hear from someone that actually uses the printers for canvas, which is what he really is interested in. Doing regular photo prints would be a bonus, but his interest is really in art reproduction on canvas. Can I also ask what type of sealer you use for the canvas print? and also you take pictures of the art and they are not scanned? Sorry for so many questions, I know so little about this area of expertise.

I also wonder if printing with this is more difficult to achieve than printing with an Epson printer like I have at home, that is for large prints of photographs? Is having a calibrated monitor and profile enough? I know it sounds silly but I need to know if he can do this on his own easily or does he need to hire a technician.
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  #8  
Old August 17th, 2013, 10:06 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Jerome, I believe that there are both "photo black" and "matte black" ink profiles for most fine art matte papers... (at least there are on the ones I use), in fact I use both of those to save ink... Whenever I am printing on semi-matte or semi-gloss for customers (I avoid using these for my purposes) and have to use matte paper for another assignment, I keep the "photo black" inks for the matte paper too (using the appropriate profile for "photo-black"), whenever I print Canvas (with "matte black" inks) and have to use matte paper, I print it with "matte black" ink profile (and the appropriate profile for matte black)... In fact the printer is always on "photo-black" and I change to "matte black" for Canvas only.... then it stays there for as long as there will be a semi-matte or semi-gloss paper requirement.
Some papers have profiles for the two inks, but that is not common. And the Epson printer driver will chose the ink depending on the paper you select, not on the profile, which I find a great way to make errors. And when using photo black ink on matte paper, the printer uses a lot more ink and still may not reach the same level of black (this is the reason why matte ink was invented).

Epson uses the same head nozzles for the two inks, which means that the nozzles and feed tubes need to be purged when switching inks. Canon has separate nozzles.
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  #9  
Old August 17th, 2013, 11:05 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Some papers have profiles for the two inks, but that is not common. And the Epson printer driver will chose the ink depending on the paper you select, not on the profile, which I find a great way to make errors. And when using photo black ink on matte paper, the printer uses a lot more ink and still may not reach the same level of black (this is the reason why matte ink was invented).

Epson uses the same head nozzles for the two inks, which means that the nozzles and feed tubes need to be purged when switching inks. Canon has separate nozzles.
I don't deny Canon's advanced design Jerome, they are surely superb printers... but you are wrong that the Epson will choose the ink on the paper you select... It does so automatically, but you can direct it to print any (despite if there is or not a profile for it) matte paper or even Canvas with photo black inks and the printer will obey... After all, the photographers that do art reproduction, ...are using provided profiles only rarely (and if we do usually modify them), ...all the rest is using profiles that we build from scratch... and I don't mean use our own calibrator, like the Xrite I-one I have, I mean that we use the calibrator for "base" and build the rest of the profile the more we develop the process... these are (mainly) the profiles we use for ultra demanding work...
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  #10  
Old August 17th, 2013, 12:04 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie Terlecki View Post
Thank you Theordoros, this is so helpful. I've read a lot but not had the opportunity to hear from someone that actually uses the printers for canvas, which is what he really is interested in. Doing regular photo prints would be a bonus, but his interest is really in art reproduction on canvas. Can I also ask what type of sealer you use for the canvas print? and also you take pictures of the art and they are not scanned? Sorry for so many questions, I know so little about this area of expertise.

I also wonder if printing with this is more difficult to achieve than printing with an Epson printer like I have at home, that is for large prints of photographs? Is having a calibrated monitor and profile enough? I know it sounds silly but I need to know if he can do this on his own easily or does he need to hire a technician.
Well Maggie prepare for a long answer...
1. I don't understand what you mean by sealer... (excuse my poor English)
2. The problem with scanners (even with the "Cruse") is with their D-max which is low if the aim is to have a print that will allow all the painter's technique to be exposed... Shooting it, OTOH will surface all the problems related with "Bayer pattern" and interpolated colour... besides, a painter's brush isn't 12 or 14 bits... it's unlimited! You have to use a multishot MFDB to shoot a painting or else you are starting crippled! If you start crippled, there is no perfectly calibrated lab later on, that will save you!
Look at those images from my web page...
First you have to define what is good quality for you... Is that "good quality"? (The original is on the left while the print comes out)


This is the final 1:1 prints when compared to the original (don't mind the different angle that makes the original look lighter, it's not!) It will take me an hour to shoot (in 16x microstep mode using Imacon 528c MFDB on either Contax 645 or Fuji GX680), develop using my monitor and print.... Now I haven't change anything on my processing/printing equipment for more than three years... Yet, 3 years ago, I could only have (maybe) 85% of the above quality AFTER 8 HOURS OF WORKING AT IT AND MAKING "TEST PRINTS" and people still thought it was superb...


Now look at the gold and the detail of this (3 foot in height) hagiography... the small letters on the left are less than a mm each... Is this good quality?


The thing is Maggie, that if you start with a crippled file... there is no way to correct it later... The capturing process (the whole process, lighting, reflections control, lens, imaging area) must be able to withdraw the painter's SOUL off the painting (not only the painting)... then there is my equipment, or Jerome's or some other that can do the job... Have your friend to mail me in my private mail...
What I am saying in short, is that what is "closer" to the original is more vital than what follows... Therefore, Capturing is first, Monitor is second and printer is third... All the rest is technique that has to "connect" the chain.
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  #11  
Old August 17th, 2013, 01:03 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Well Maggie prepare for a long answer...
1. I don't understand what you mean by sealer... (excuse my poor English)
2. The problem with scanners (even with the "Cruse") is with their D-max which is low if the aim is to have a print that will allow all the painter's technique to be exposed... Shooting it, OTOH will surface all the problems related with "Bayer pattern" and interpolated colour... besides, a painter's brush isn't 12 or 14 bits... it's unlimited! You have to use a multishot MFDB to shoot a painting or else you are starting crippled! If you start crippled, there is no perfectly calibrated lab later on, that will save you!
Look at those images from my web page...
First you have to define what is good quality for you... Is that "good quality"? (The original is on the left while the print comes out)


This is the final 1:1 prints when compared to the original (don't mind the different angle that makes the original look lighter, it's not!) It will take me an hour to shoot (in 16x microstep mode using Imacon 528c MFDB on either Contax 645 or Fuji GX680), develop using my monitor and print.... Now I haven't change anything on my processing/printing equipment for more than three years... Yet, 3 years ago, I could only have (maybe) 85% of the above quality AFTER 8 HOURS OF WORKING AT IT AND MAKING "TEST PRINTS" and people still thought it was superb...


Now look at the gold and the detail of this (3 foot in height) hagiography... the small letters on the left are less than a mm each... Is this good quality?


The thing is Maggie, that if you start with a crippled file... there is no way to correct it later... The capturing process (the whole process, lighting, reflections control, lens, imaging area) must be able to withdraw the painter's SOUL off the painting (not only the painting)... then there is my equipment, or Jerome's or some other that can do the job... Have your friend to mail me in my private mail...
What I am saying in short, is that what is "closer" to the original is more vital than what follows... Therefore, Capturing is first, Monitor is second and printer is third... All the rest is technique that has to "connect" the chain.
Your work is beautiful and I did see it online and see that the close-ups showed amazing quality. I was impressed. My friend is my printer. I called him this morning and he was not there and I then emailed him as he may be on his summer vacation. He, also only speaks French. When I wrote him, I did explain that I believed it would be better to photograph with a medium format digital back was the way to go as I could see the quality and color you were achieving with the camera. This may make the final decision that the combination of it all may be too expensive for him, I'm not sure. If he still thinks it's feasible for him to do, I'll recontact you. If you can correspond in French, then I'll put you in communication with him, if not, I'll let you know too.
Thanks for all your information. The help about the monitor was excellent too, as I knew he'd need that also.
As for the varnish, yes, a type of sealer. I saw they sell it at Hahnemühle, Glossy, Satin and Matte.
Again, thank you for all your help. Actually getting information from someone that does this is the best and I can see by your results that they are excellent.
:-)

Maggie
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  #12  
Old August 17th, 2013, 01:34 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Oh... varnishing! I use different types depending on the appearance of the original... Careful there though... you have to use the appropriate (obviously self build) profile with the varnish in mind...

Alsoooo, (now be especially careful on this Maggie - I think you missed it) ...I would never do a painting using a single-shot MFDB... More than the lack of detail, it's the interpolated colour (because of the Bayer pattern) that will cause problems later... When one says that Dalsa sensors are very colour accurate, he means skin tones or other photography... Painting reproduction is much more demanding than that... you need to shoot it in real colour not affected by any Bayer pattern or interpolating process... YOU NEED A MULTISHOT MFDB to do that... Also... multishot will give you 2 extra stops of DR..., which is vital with some ultra dark tones that many painters are playing with all the time... Heck, I remember once saying to a painter... "Van Dyke brown disappearing into black.... and you expect me to print this?"
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  #13  
Old August 17th, 2013, 03:56 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Thank you Theodoros. I did not realize that you have to take several shots. I will relate that information also.

You cannot know how helpful you have been. Thank you so much! I appreciate it!
Maggie
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  #14  
Old August 18th, 2013, 02:38 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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I am afraid Maggie, that you are confusing multiple shots of a single shot back with a multishot back.... You don't have to take "several shots" Maggie (as you say)... You have to use a MULTISHOT back! ....like these for example: http://www.sinar.ch/en/category/products/digital-backs/
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Old August 18th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
I am afraid Maggie, that you are confusing multiple shots of a single shot back with a multishot back.... You don't have to take "several shots" Maggie (as you say)... You have to use a MULTISHOT back! ....like these for example: http://www.sinar.ch/en/category/products/digital-backs/
As you can see, I know nothing about medium format cameras. I have now read up on the multi-shot backs and understand how they work and why you would use them, especially for reproducing art. I'm pretty sure this is going to be out of the range of what he can afford especially since it was meant to be a side-line to his regular business. I had no idea what it all entailed and I'm sure he also didn't. I'm very glad that you have been so generous with your information as this will save him finding out after the fact when pockets are emptied and possibly our friendship on a rocky road.

much appreciated,
Maggie
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