• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

K10D Battery Grip Banding!

There have been some noise banding complaints by regarding the Pentax K10D. However, I've been aware of a different, horizontal banding (see pictures bottom), on my camera and was getting ready to send it to Pentax for service tomorrow.

As it turns out, this banding only happens WHEN THE BATTERY GRIP IS INSTALLED! It does not matter if I select Body First, Grip First or Auto. It does not matter whether the grip is turned on or off. All that matters is that the grip is installed on the camera.

I recently started "converting" my K10 for street outings and had been out tonight, so the battery grip was not attached to the camera. I was getting ready to box my camera up and send it off to Pentax for them to repair this very problem. So, when I went to take the test shots and could not reproduce the banding, I was surprised.

Then it dawned on me - no grip!

Now I don't know how to proceed with Pentax, I think I'll call them tomorrow because I really don't want to part with my camera...

K10D + BATTERY GRIP, ISO 1600, 1/10 sec.:
banding_k10_grip_cropped.jpg



K10D + BATTERY GRIP, ISO 1600, 1/10 sec., LIGHTENED:
banding_k10+grip_cropped_edited.jpg


K10D + NO BATTERY GRIP, ISO 1600, 1/10 sec.
banding_k10_nogrip_cropped.jpg
 
Last edited:

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Ed,

I must admit I cannot see the horizontal lines yet! But this is just the MacBook Pro. Is it very subtle?

Maybe I need to go to my big screen? Anyway, I am at a loss!

Asher
 
Interesting. The crop is from the out-of-the-camera JPEG. I have the contrast setting down a little in the camera. It would probably stand out a little better with a bit more contrast...

Okay, I added a "LIGHTENED" version - the banding is on the left, dark side... ?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I see it!

Strange that the band is periodic.

I have no idea!

When you send it back, put in some white arrows in Photoshop to the lines so the guys get it right away!

Asher
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Ed,

Maybe try giving the grip contacts a very good clean (and the camera ones). I have a few background thoughts on what it could be, but will wait until you get the answer from Pentax, then I can say 'Exactly what I thought...' ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Kyle Nagel

New member
Interesting. The crop is from the out-of-the-camera JPEG. I have the contrast setting down a little in the camera. It would probably stand out a little better with a bit more contrast...

Okay, I added a "LIGHTENED" version - the banding is on the left, dark side... ?

I can can see it quite clearly on both of the first two images, I wonder if the orientation of the additional battery in the grip is causing some sort of electrical or magnetic interference? or is there some sort of stress applied internally to some components within the camera when the screw that attach's the grip is tightened? or is one of the batteries it's self the issue? there is also the possibility that the camera's communication with the grip is causing it.

Try some of these experiments before sending it off; attach the grip without the battery in it and see what happens. also try leaving the grip off and swap batteries to see if the battery that was in the grip causes it to happen when it is in the camera. One last experiment, try leaving the battery out of the camera body and attach the grip with a battery in it and see what happens.

Let us know what you find out.

Kyle
 
Try some of these experiments before sending it off; attach the grip without the battery in it and see what happens. also try leaving the grip off and swap batteries to see if the battery that was in the grip causes it to happen when it is in the camera. One last experiment, try leaving the battery out of the camera body and attach the grip with a battery in it and see what happens.
Kyle

I did some experimenting along those lines before posting. As you would expect, the results to your suggested experiments are:
  • Grip off, different battery in camera: NO BANDING
  • Grip on, no battery: NO BANDING
  • Grip on, one battery in grip, no battery in camera: BANDING
I also tried the following
  • Grip on, battery in both grip and camera, Body First selected for the battery option and Grip turned off: BANDING
This means that using all means to disable the grips interaction with the system, just the presence of a battery in the grip causes the banding.
 

Dave New

Member
As a wild guess, I'd say that there is an oscillator or switching supply running in the grip when the battery is installed and the body is turned on.

The high frequency components are getting into the sensor amplifier circuitry. If you can find others with the same problem, I'd say it's a design flaw, and short of some circuit re-design in the grip and/or the body, Pentax service won't be able to do much about it.
 

Kyle Nagel

New member
I think we are getting closer to figuring out the banding problem, however I have the grip for my camera installed and can't produce banding, but it may explain why only some are seeing the banding. I looked carefully at my grip and I think there isn't much more than battery and control contacts that pass through to the camera, any oscillator or switching supply I suspect would be in the camera, but it may still explain the problem.

Ed,

Are both of your batteries Pentax OEM batteries? I have 4 batteries and 3 of mine are aftermarket batteries and I usually have the OEM battery in my body, so my grip has always had the aftermarket batteries in it.

Kyle
 
One of the tests I ran was the OEM battery in the grip and no battery in the camera - banding still occurred.

In my experience, the banding only occurs on properly exposed images with blocked areas of dark uniform color, taken at roughly 1/10 sec at high ISO.

I have a picture of a friend with black pants on that shows the banding as well. I haven't reproduced it with flash, but I might try...
 

Kyle Nagel

New member
Have you tried it with just the aftermarket battery in the grip and none in the camera? I ask because I can't produce the banding on mine and I primarily use aftermarket batteries.

Kyle
 
Called Pentax

I have NOT done a thorough battery swap sequence between the OEM and the third-party batteries. I just tested with the OEM and when I got the banding, decided the testing was done =D

FYI -- I called Pentax, the lady there was very helpful and got Pentax people from North Carolina involved. The called me, asked me a few questions and told me they would keep me informed. They even indicated they've been monitoring the forums.

Thumbs up for Pentax Service so far!
 

Kyle Nagel

New member
It's nice to hear about your experience with Pentax, when I spoke with the Pentax rep here back in December he indicated that they are really focused on this camera and are dedicating more efforts to quality control and development than any other camera previously.

Please let us know if you hear anything from them regarding the cause of this. It will be interesting to find out what it turns out to be since it doesn't occur in all of the cameras, but based on your experience it does appear as if the battery grip is one of the factors involved.

Kyle
 

John Sheehy

New member
If you can find others with the same problem, I'd say it's a design flaw, and short of some circuit re-design in the grip and/or the body, Pentax service won't be able to do much about it.

There's no reason why a RAW converter couldn't compensate for it, though. ACR compensates for gross horizontal offset banding (which this seems to be, as it affects mainly shadows) on at least some of the cameras, but doesn't compensate for scalar banding (the type due to different amplification on different lines, which shows up in all tonal ranges).
 
Thats a thought. I've been waiting on a response from Pentax. I think I will call them next week to try and find out where their at.

I can also post over at Bibble Labs to see if there's anything they can put in their algorithm to compensate...

Ed.
 

John Sheehy

New member
Thats a thought. I've been waiting on a response from Pentax. I think I will call them next week to try and find out where their at.

I can also post over at Bibble Labs to see if there's anything they can put in their algorithm to compensate...
Ed.

Does the pattern begin and end at the beginning and ends of lines, or does it start and in the middle of lines?

If it is entire lines, and the Pentax RAW file has the black masked pixel borders in it (some companies leave them out), it is possible to adjust each line for a different blackpoint.

There are a lot of things that manufacturers and RAW converters can do to mask issues like these, but generally, they don't bother.
 
The pattern is apparent and starts at the edge of the frame when the edge of the frame is underexposed. The pattern is much less apparent in "properly" exposed segments of the image. So, I don't know if altering the black point would cause the inverse effect or not?
 

John Sheehy

New member
The pattern is apparent and starts at the edge of the frame when the edge of the frame is underexposed. The pattern is much less apparent in "properly" exposed segments of the image. So, I don't know if altering the black point would cause the inverse effect or not?

Can you put a RAW file somewhere, with the problem in a scene that is all dark-grey; close to black, but not quite black? I could tell you exactly what is happening.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Just send it vist yousendit.com for frree. Very easy! Peple PM you with their email you then send it to up to 100 people!

Asher
 
Top