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  #1  
Old May 9th, 2013, 02:13 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Default The usual suspects..

I'm not being critical but over the past months I have noticed that it seems to be just the usual suspects making contributions. It reminds me a bit of a Carry On... movie where the characters never change and the storyline is fairly consistent, we get to see a few bums and tits, but we don't get the laughs.
Now, I know Asher doesn't reap the benefits of advertising so numbers aren't all that important to maintain the place and sweep the floors but it might seem the conversations are a bit narrow and predicable. Certainly my contributions are. I feel like the heckler in the crowd at the cricket most days. Nothing really substantial to contribute except a few choice words when the bowler is polishing his ball.
I'm not even suggesting here that we need a cure for this ailment. It's just that I have noticed in my own circle of associates outside this place that if you hang around too long you start to hear the same old stories being told and the same old jokes start to wear a bit thin.
It's easy for me to suggest if I'm bored I can always go somewhere else. I do from time to time. It's just that when I return its like I haven't been away. That may be a good thing. Maybe I should stay away longer. Absence and all that!
I might add as well that there are few women contributors on any sort of regular basis. I must admit I do prefer the company of women. They smell nice and are far better to look at. Not that that is important here but you get my drift.

So I leave this open for discussion among the Old Men, smoking their pipes and sipping on vintage port in the back room while they discuss cameras of significance and art and the importance of being important. I don't want to lower the tone, just hear some new jokes.
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  #2  
Old May 9th, 2013, 04:39 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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My first thoughts were, don't get me started on this, again.
We have had this discussion (or versions of it) many times before so this, too, is nothing new.
I have been away for more than a year and when I came back the place was almost the same, with the exception of a few new faces. An some old ones who were no longer there.
We used to have 5-6 regular female contributors but they have all dispersed due to various reasons. We still have a few left luckily. Having been at places where women are in the majority, I can safely state that they tend to conduct discussions on photography differently. But that can also get tedious. I will stop before I get tedious too.
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  #3  
Old May 9th, 2013, 06:25 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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By the tone in your typing, Cem, I suspect you'd like it some other way. It also sounds like you've been on this treadmill before with no success.
If you did want the place to look different, how would you see it and what would you do to change it?
On second thought, don't answer the question if you believe you're pissing into the wind.
What I have discovered over the years I have been 'foruming' is that there is always some ownership by an individual or small group who decide on how things operate. I'm OK with that and understand fully. It's their house so don't put your feet on the furniture.
I'm just curious how places like this attracts specific people and not others. It's a bit clicky, really. Even my presence here baffles me at times. I have no idea why I keep coming back. I don't post many shots and most of the conversations give me constipation. Yet here I am, chatting away to myself while the news is on.
Is it because we can say things here and there is no real consequence. I keen, really, is anyone going to take me serious or consider my photos as world shattering or even agree with me? And if I insult someone or offend them or their beliefs, is it really going to cause WW3 ?
My problem is that I haven't come to grips with what forums are for. Some say its about sharing ideas but I see more sharing in my street than I do here. Some say its about friendship but that's a bit like using the Internet to find a date. It's a bit sordid.

Maybe I am just a bit over it all and need a rest. I'll take an extra pill and sleep on it. Well see if anyone has a comment or they just ignore the noisy bloke in the room.
Asher won't. He'll say something nice then send me a PM and explain things in length detail. Or tell me to mind my own business.

G'd night
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  #4  
Old May 9th, 2013, 06:30 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Sleep well Tom, talk yo you tomorrow.
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  #5  
Old May 9th, 2013, 08:37 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Tom,

For me it's simple, I love the work I see. Alucine mesmerized me! Rare, but a strong motivation for me to find more treasures. I couldn't imagine the beauty of Jerome Marot's pictures inside that abandoned housing complex in Germany or how beautifully one can render industrial buildings Cem has shared. This richness alone, is enough for me. Add to that the fact that feedback for my own work helps me enough to try to go to the next stage of competing for gallery space or at least providing great prints for my family's walls. I personally get a thrill when I see someone like Dawid Loubser from South Africa make great B&W pictures with his Mamiya+film or see raptors fighting, as Jaime posted today. Helene Anderson's pictures of abandoned railway stations in France are hauntingly wonderful and Rachel's luscious sensual rose still lingers in my mind. There's enough for Maggie to comment and bring her friend from San Diego, a female, you'll be pleased to learn and an avid, active photographer.

Also, the unique contributions of a few with expertise in image processing has been so helpful: Cem's use of SNS-HDR, Bart's methods of calibrating autofocus, ideas of blur, refocusing and sharpening and Nicolas on framing well and details of his sharpening workflow. These ideas, not camera-fascism or lens envy constitute resources at least a few here use and really, really appreciate. When one dines or shares wine and stories with someone, it's not necessary to have thousands of other folk looking through the window and approve to have a good time. That's it, in a nutshell. Want to make it more interesting and magnetic, post new work. That's what I'll do after your grouchiness, LOL!

I am to blame, for sure, for not bringing up to date the front of the forum. Unfortunately, our IT guy is going to be very unavailable for the next 7-8 years due to a mixture of awful tragedies beyond belief. Once my flood damage is complete, I'll get a new person to program the front, it will be active and then we'll get more draw. Previously, Nicolas claris, generously used his own agency to do this for us, without remuneration, but we were taking up too much time as a guest and he started travelling much more for his shoots. Without Nicolas, we'd be no where at all. So I take your comments of some dreariness as a prod in the ribs for me and will respond by updating as I've promised.

Meanwhile, I like your one man's view of the world from your window without pretentiousness. Hope Christine will continue to have you do the housework, keep your joints moving, so that window's looking at the world and you're reporting, as now.

The updates will be substantial, including video and the access much more open to new photographers.

Asher
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  #6  
Old May 9th, 2013, 08:48 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quite simply, most if not all the other forums are far worse. This is the reason why I am here.

It is not only a problem of photography forums. In my experience, the golden age of Internet forum is long past. It used to be only a few forums at first (or even only selected usenet groups, who remembers rec.photo.misc?), but in the 2000s everyone and their dogs (since in the Internet nobody knows you are a dog...) started a forum about something. Most of these forums were not successful and the less successful admins went to do something else (blog was the next hot thing), but the result was that the original expertise was dispersed amongst many sites. Only a few very successful forums remained, like dpreview or some flickr groups, but with only part of the original expertise and many times the number of noobs. Do I need to describe the result? In the past y 2 or 3 years, BTW, these successful remaining forums seem to be animated by paid shills, so it could get worse and it did.

On top of this, photography is in a particular situation as far as Internet forums go. It is mainly men, and many more camera lovers than people actually interested about pictures. That makes it very difficult to create the necessary dynamics to well reasoned discussions. To create these dynamics, a forum would need some diversity of expertise and interest, low competition and few people interested in justifying their particular choice (e.g. a choice of gear) in a semi-religious manner. We have exactly the opposite.

OPF is a bit unique in that it does not appeal to gear heads and that it has members having very different approaches of photography, in different genres. These are good conditions to create positive dynamics.
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  #7  
Old May 9th, 2013, 02:43 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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I am with Jerome concerning the gearheads - I came here because I was literally fed up with forums more concerned about the gear than the pictures.

I am also hoping for more contribution from more, different people. I could post more, but I fee like flooding the forum if I do so.

Best regards,
Michael
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  #8  
Old May 9th, 2013, 02:48 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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I like the pictures as well, Asher. Then again, I like most pictures.


You could well be right, Jerome. On a rare day I might do a search thought the millions of forums on photography and find the same old comments and photos by the same old people having the same old arguments. If I have the inclination I might join in. Then I get told to **** off because I didn't read the fine print. Something about being respectful and polite. They just don't understand Australians.
I must admit I enjoy the conversations with the characters on OPF. From the artists to the Arabs, they all have their flavours which give a special taste to this place. I wonder if the scrutiny Asher puts us under before we can register has something to do with that.
Asher, what do you do if you find someone who doesn't dress to your standards?
By the way, Christine is taking me to the ballet in Prague next month. What does one wear to the Prague opera house to watch Don Quixote?
So, what makes a successful forum? Is it, as Asher has implied, lots of bling on the front page and lots of trinkets inside or is it, as this one seems to be, specific to a selected audience and by its very nature, excludes the working class.
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  #9  
Old May 9th, 2013, 03:01 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
So, what makes a successful forum? Is it, as Asher has implied, lots of bling on the front page and lots of trinkets inside or is it, as this one seems to be, specific to a selected audience and by its very nature, excludes the working class.
Tom,

People land on the front page and it says last updated 2009, so folk leave immediately, that's all. Nicolas is going to come to our rescue and fix that. Also the front page should show what's changing in the forum, recent posts and popular topics and any new reviews or breaking news. The sort of review would be a book on an interesting photographer, an advance in SNS-HDR or a way to do layers in Aperture, so we can bipass Photoshop. No bling! I have no interest in having a better camera or lens than anyone else. To me it's all about getting the pictures I want or enjoying other folks impressions of whatever's on their minds.

I love photography, people, trees, every breath of fresh air and the old Armenian fellow with glasses on the tip of his nose in his antique shop on Robertson Blvd on the way to the freeway. That's why I'm here to nibble and enjoy what made others happy though photography, without dealing with owning more stuff or pixel envy.

Asher
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  #10  
Old May 9th, 2013, 03:02 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
By the tone in your typing, Cem, I suspect you'd like it some other way. It also sounds like you've been on this treadmill before with no success.
If you did want the place to look different, how would you see it and what would you do to change it
I have had many similar discussions publicly but also behind the scenes when I still was an OPF moderator. I don't think that one can define success in such an on-going process. Many aspects are dependent on the dynamics of the web, changing trends and of course the people; members and visitors.

Quote:
On second thought, don't answer the question if you believe you're pissing into the wind.
My trousers are already dirty, I don't mind the additional stains, lol.

Quote:
What I have discovered over the years I have been 'foruming' is that there is always some ownership by an individual or small group who decide on how things operate. I'm OK with that and understand fully. It's their house so don't put your feet on the furniture.
In this case that would be Asher. He prefers to use analogies such as the Yellow Tour Bus and that we are all visitors in his living room.

Quote:
I'm just curious how places like this attracts specific people and not others. It's a bit clicky, really. Even my presence here baffles me at times. I have no idea why I keep coming back. I don't post many shots and most of the conversations give me constipation. Yet here I am, chatting away to myself while the news is on.
Is it because we can say things here and there is no real consequence. I keen, really, is anyone going to take me serious or consider my photos as world shattering or even agree with me? And if I insult someone or offend them or their beliefs, is it really going to cause WW3 ?
My problem is that I haven't come to grips with what forums are for. Some say its about sharing ideas but I see more sharing in my street than I do here. Some say its about friendship but that's a bit like using the Internet to find a date. It's a bit sordid.
I would expect this to be easy especially for you. It is like taking photographs. We come here because we want to. Just hang around with people who have an understanding of our collective hobby. Have a couple of virtual drinks together, have some banter, exchange some gossip, show some pictures or comment on others' and then move on with our lives untill the next visit.

Cheers mate.
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  #11  
Old May 9th, 2013, 05:34 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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I guess I haven't caught up with the virtual world yet.
I am going to catch up with the real one right now. Have my ears checked and go see a new baby, not yet a day old.
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  #12  
Old May 10th, 2013, 02:24 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Quite simply, most if not all the other forums are far worse. This is the reason why I am here.

It is not only a problem of photography forums. In my experience, the golden age of Internet forum is long past. It used to be only a few forums at first (or even only selected usenet groups, who remembers rec.photo.misc?), but in the 2000s everyone and their dogs (since in the Internet nobody knows you are a dog...) started a forum about something. Most of these forums were not successful and the less successful admins went to do something else (blog was the next hot thing), but the result was that the original expertise was dispersed amongst many sites. Only a few very successful forums remained, like dpreview or some flickr groups, but with only part of the original expertise and many times the number of noobs. Do I need to describe the result? In the past y 2 or 3 years, BTW, these successful remaining forums seem to be animated by paid shills, so it could get worse and it did.

On top of this, photography is in a particular situation as far as Internet forums go. It is mainly men, and many more camera lovers than people actually interested about pictures. That makes it very difficult to create the necessary dynamics to well reasoned discussions. To create these dynamics, a forum would need some diversity of expertise and interest, low competition and few people interested in justifying their particular choice (e.g. a choice of gear) in a semi-religious manner. We have exactly the opposite.

OPF is a bit unique in that it does not appeal to gear heads and that it has members having very different approaches of photography, in different genres. These are good conditions to create positive dynamics.
I agree mostly Jerome, what you have described is true. I am sure that there must be some communities out there similar to OPF. We don't know about them and they don't know about us. The way I see this is that we persevere because we are cocooning. Yes we have a diversity of people on board with various interests. They come here because it is a safe place from harrassment and flame wars. Not allowing anonymity is one of the cornerstones of OPF. That is why I am furious when every now and then somebody is allowed to use pseudonyms such as Theodoros Fotometria. I think that it is insulting to the rest of us who willingly gave up our anonymity. To paraphrase Andrew Rodney, we have full transparency to who we are while this person can be anybody hiding behind the facade of a website.

PS: this time around, I am calling things as I see them, not beating around the bush.
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  #13  
Old May 10th, 2013, 03:52 AM
Ben Rubinstein Ben Rubinstein is offline
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I for one am enjoying seeing you back here Cem, your collected work as shown on the exhibition thread is really really good.
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  #14  
Old May 10th, 2013, 04:00 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Thanks Ben, really appreciated. The feelings are mutual of course.
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  #15  
Old May 10th, 2013, 10:52 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
I agree mostly Jerome, what you have described is true. I am sure that there must be some communities out there similar to OPF. We don't know about them and they don't know about us. The way I see this is that we persevere because we are cocooning. Yes we have a diversity of people on board with various interests. They come here because it is a safe place from harrassment and flame wars. Not allowing anonymity is one of the cornerstones of OPF. That is why I am furious when every now and then somebody is allowed to use pseudonyms such as Theodoros Fotometria. I think that it is insulting to the rest of us who willingly gave up our anonymity. To paraphrase Andrew Rodney, we have full transparency to who we are while this person can be anybody hiding behind the facade of a website.

PS: this time around, I am calling things as I see them, not beating around the bush.
Cem,

True on the comments of pseudonyms, but exceedingly rare. The fellow used that name in all his professional work and I like his photography enough to make that error in judgement. I have to be allowed to be imperfect and wrong sometimes. We do it also for under age photographers, those stalked or harassed by and ex-husband, but I doubt it's more than 4-5 out of 5,000 folk of about 12,000 or so who didn't get banned or let go at the outset.

Asher
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  #16  
Old May 10th, 2013, 11:17 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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I understand your reasons Asher. I am not going to let this become a problem for anybody. I just needed to state my take on it, that's all.
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  #17  
Old May 10th, 2013, 11:25 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
I understand your reasons Asher. I am not going to let this become a problem for anybody. I just needed to state my take on it, that's all.
Cem,

Still, you and anyone else has a right to call me out when I'm plain wrong. Just don't chop of any important parts of my body, (just yet), LOL. I've still have many parties to host and more miles to travel and enjoy!

asher
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  #18  
Old May 10th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Tom,

I've been watching this thread the last couple of days and wondering what this thread could accomplish besides just saying you are not satisfied with the discussions and threads posted here. I don't see how something like this would change anything except voice that you'd like to take part in some more lively and interesting conversations with the members here, but it also seems to put the onus on the people here to make this place a more interesting place to come to.

Being a teacher, I'm sure you have understood that when you are continually getting the same reactions from you students, that the only way to change that is not to tell them that what they are doing is not what you expect of them and that they need to change, but instead to change your own way of approaching them.

In lieu of having a more negative attitude and saying what is wrong with this place, how about making the change to take a positive attitude and instead start threads about things that you are curious about and that you are interested in knowing about. Make a thread about things that pique your interest and in subjects that you are wanting to know what others opinions about are. If your thread is interesting and leaves people feeling like their opinion is important and to be considered, then I'm sure people would be happy to join in.

You are an eloquent writer. Create that thread, then let's start a discussion. Don't want the discussion to be one-sided? Invite others to join in and participate. Don't simply say, it's boring here, nothing ever changes; instead, create excitement and discussions and help make this place better.
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Old May 10th, 2013, 04:08 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie Terlecki View Post
Tom,

I've been watching this thread the last couple of days and wondering what this thread could accomplish besides just saying you are not satisfied with the discussions and threads posted here. I don't see how something like this would change anything except voice that you'd like to take part in some more lively and interesting conversations with the members here, but it also seems to put the onus on the people here to make this place a more interesting place to come to.

Being a teacher, I'm sure you have understood that when you are continually getting the same reactions from you students, that the only way to change that is not to tell them that what they are doing is not what you expect of them and that they need to change, but instead to change your own way of approaching them.

In lieu of having a more negative attitude and saying what is wrong with this place, how about making the change to take a positive attitude and instead start threads about things that you are curious about and that you are interested in knowing about. Make a thread about things that pique your interest and in subjects that you are wanting to know what others opinions about are. If your thread is interesting and leaves people feeling like their opinion is important and to be considered, then I'm sure people would be happy to join in.

You are an eloquent writer. Create that thread, then let's start a discussion. Don't want the discussion to be one-sided? Invite others to join in and participate. Don't simply say, it's boring here, nothing ever changes; instead, create excitement and discussions and help make this place better.
Case closed, Maggie. I'm off to be nice and positive. I'll let you know how it goes.
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  #20  
Old May 11th, 2013, 01:25 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Well, that didn't go well. Nice as apple pie all day I was. Positive as a PowerPoint plug. Showed no signs of boredom, paid attention at every turn, read all the posts in the forum.
What did I get for efforts. Abuse!
Christine: Are you going to be like that all day?
Me: for the rest of my life.
C: not in my life you're not. Now wipe that smarmy smirk off your face and go clean the pool or something useful.
M: gee, thanks. I didn't really know how long I could keep it up. I was just doing it 'cause someone suggested .......
C: Yeah, well, don't try it on here. If 'someone' wants you to be weird and normal go live with them. I like the dickhead I married, bullshit and all.
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  #21  
Old May 11th, 2013, 01:28 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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I told you already, don't get me started again. Now you know why.
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  #22  
Old May 11th, 2013, 02:33 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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I told you already, don't get me started again. Now you know why.
C'mon, Cem, lets see that Turkish temperament in full flight.
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  #23  
Old May 11th, 2013, 03:04 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Had to get rid of it somewhere along the road Tom. So that Asher does not need to worry about any chopping.
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