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Ordering the New 1D Mark III Who has or will take the plunge?

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
It seems to be very attractive.

Assuming Canon's penchant for clean processing applies to at least ISO 3200, the new camera will be a leap forward of several stops of usablility, atl east if there is also the increased sensitivity of the camera to acquire focus.

The fine adjustment to each of ones lenses is another great feature.

So who has already ordered the camera, where and why?

At what price?

Asher
 
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Jeff Mims

New member
I'm not sure who is taking pre-orders at this time. I'd like to get one, but will probably wait until the initial rush is over (and maybe the price settles). However, I'd really like to use that clean 3200 and 6400 ISO at highschool football this season.
 
Since you're also asking "who will"... ;-)

I must admit: this is currently my intention. I'm a bit short of funds, but I'm getting there, slowly but surely.

However, I'm open to the possibility that Canon will announce smth like 40D or 6D in August or some time before Photokina, since I doubt I'll have the funds ready before that anyway.
In this case I may swing, depending on the feature set and the price. 30D replacement will allow me to use all me EF-S lenses without requiring immediate - and very costly upgrade - in the medium and WA spectrum, and 5D replacement will at least bring the FF, so my portrait and landscapes capabilities will extend quite a bit (and I hope the price difference would allow for at least one nice lens in this area).

We'll see.

As to the question of "where"... Most likely, online from the East Coast, since paying 7%..8% sales tax on this $4K baby here in CA means my very own extra $280..320 to be blown by the feds. I do like both B&H and Adorama, but you can rest assured that I will do a full sweep for a lower price. I have successfully dealt with many different e-tailers in the past, both big ticket items and small ones, so I don't have any reason not to do it this time.

Cheers!

BTW, are you going to answer your own questions? ;-)
 
It seems to be very attractive.

Assuming Canon's penchant for clean processing applies to at least ISO 3200, the new camera will be a leap forward of several stops of usablility, atl east if there is also the increased sensitivity of the camera to acquire focus.

Since this is a very tempting new product with 2 new (DIGIC III) image processors, I'm going to do a technical analysis of the Raw data quality as soon as the Canon Raw processing SDK makes it possible and I get someone's Raw test files. Doing such an in depth test requires solid methodology, and it takes a lot of time to process all the data. So in order to not waste my time, I'd need to be sure of the correct shooting conditions. I anticipate that ISO 1600 may be the new 'Unity gain' level, meaning that ISO 3200-6400 can just as well (or better) be achieved in postprocessing the Raw files.

I believe Ferenc Harmat is going to get a 1D3, and he'd probably/hopefully be willing to provide me with the Raw files I need. We both are sort of a control freak, in the sense that we 'need' to fully understand our gear to make the best use of it, so we think alike in that respect. I know I could rely on his file quality, but who knows there may be others willing and able to contribute. Let's see when the camera and the evaluation software becomes available.

The fine adjustment to each of ones lenses is another great feature.

From what is written about it, it looks very interesting indeed. I wonder if it also works with an extender (1.4x and/or 2x).

So who has already ordered the camera, where and why?

If I can control myself, I'll probably wait to see which direction Canon goes with the 1Ds3 before I make my mind up (unless I get an assignment that requires speed rather than resolution). We may be at a junction between high speed and image quality versus high resolution at the expense of some inherent DR quality. We'll see what the future has in store.

At what price?

The major dealers in the Netherlands have it currently pegged at EUR 4149 (incl 19% VAT) and mid-May availability, and I don't think they have to substantially drop the price too soon, unless some sort of competition develops and Canon facillitates such a move.

Bart
 

Tom Henkel

New member
Waiting....

...for the 1Ds Mark III. Nothing against the 1D Mk III -- it looks like a good camera to me. But I need a FF, higher resolution camera more than a replacement to my 1D Mark II. So I plan to wait until September to see what happens.

Tom
 

Paul Bestwick

pro member
yea i'm with Tom. Tempted by the 1DIII in a big way. I don't have a backup for my 1DSMKII so it would be useful......more than. I reckon I will hang on & see what is announced regarding the FF unit.
Having said that it is a hard call, the 1DMKIII would be a fine addition to my system & I am expecting to be blown away by the image quality it will produce. Once again though....how much greater the 1DSMKIII. It is a dilemma......I love it.

Cheers,

Paul
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
I am back from WPPI

and the hot thing to do was play with the new 1D3. Constant Demos and wa the hot topic.

There were more pre-orders at all the vendor booths. And the buzz around was that it seems almost all who experienced it were thrilled with it.
 

Will Thompson

Well Known Member
I already ordered my 1DsMKIII!

No it is not a typo. My dealer has instructions to order it from Canon as soon as they will take it.
 

RoyVarley

New member
Yep. On order at Teds in Melbourne. I was thinking about doing the same as Will for the 1DsIII, but I might just wait for the annoucement.
 

Anthony Arkadia

New member
Not me, after serious considerations i have come to the conclusion that the camera is just lacking in resolving power. They could have easily made this camera 13-14MP but they chose to Handi-Cap it on purpose. Canon does not want it's users to have one general purpose high end SLR.
They force you to purchase two, if they made the 1dmkIII 13-14MP it would be the last camera for many a pro.
Anyway i canceled my Pre-order, i will wait the extra 3 years until they do make 8FPS and 14MP.
I am tired of the upgrade games, at $4,000.00 a whack for no real image upgrades, just mechanical it is time to buckle down. JMO, i am actually looking to buy back another 1dsmkII now.
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
1D Mark III: Here I come! :)

...Almost perfect combination of speed, durability/quality, resolution (NO LONGER a PJ/Sports camera), and overall, uncompromised performance with a vast feature set.

Most of my landscaping/high-resolution needs (beyond 10MP, or 13x19,which are limited), can be MUCH BETTER addressed with high-quality pano. software, or with best-in-class upsampling software, like SizeFixer, from FixerLabs.

If the next 5D comes out, with a body that corrects its current lackluster performance and construction "issues", and incorporates a FF-sensor *based on* the 1D MKIII sensor (not an alternate design), I will immediately replace my 30D with this cam, and use it as my back-up and work around camera with NO FLASH! (ISO3200-6400)

Yes sir, I will take two... :cool:
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The only thing that really upsets me about the 5D is the limited ability to acquire focus in low light compared to the 1DII. I have discovered, so far, no new EV details for focus on the new 1DIII.

Asher
 
...Almost perfect combination of speed, durability/quality, resolution (NO LONGER a PJ/Sports camera), and overall, uncompromised performance with a vast feature set.

Hi Ferenc,

Should you in fact decide to get a 1D3, could we (as we briefly exchanged some fundamental stuff about testing methodology based on Roger Clark's summaries, in a PM), agree to analyze the sensor characteristics together?
'ImagesPlus' (which I, just as Roger does, also use) as a software environment will allow to exactly replicate Roger's method (description on his webpages is available and thus allow to be replicated/compared independently by many people). I've also decided that the merits of his described methods outweigh the negatives for sensor analysis.

Feel free to respond either in public or in a PM, should you so desire. I'm Dutch, and we tend to be a bit direct (some call it blunt) at times (we have an introspective saying: "Just act normal, it's quaint enough"), so I hope you don't mind the direct question.

Bart
 

Ferenc Harmat

New member
Count on it...

Hi Ferenc,

Should you in fact decide to get a 1D3, could we (as we briefly exchanged some fundamental stuff about testing methodology based on Roger Clark's summaries, in a PM), agree to analyze the sensor characteristics together?
'ImagesPlus' (which I, just as Roger does, also use) as a software environment will allow to exactly replicate Roger's method

ABSOLUTELY.

If you provide me with the basic and direct tips on how to run the software, we will proceed and perform this analysis, here, in OPF, with utmost attention to detail. We will go from A to Z, and find out where Canon put their money on this bad boy.

I also have a fully operational and licensed copy of Imatest, and we can also run some stuft there, along with organic images, for statisfying those that still have the weak belief that lab-test "do not" accurately project or estimate what happens in "reality" (to me, there is nothing more "real", per-se, than a decent Lab test, indeed... :)

As soon as the MKIII arrives, I will let you know. One more job to do with the all-wonder, all-round 1D MKII-N and it will put it in the market.

Stay tuned!
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
I thought about it

And decided that for $4000 I will buy quality studio lighting and wait for the next round of 5D that has no dust issues and 14mp. I am pretty happy with the 5D and for small hands it's easier.
 

Anthony Arkadia

New member
Kathy, you know how the old saying goes...​
Amateurs always talk about the latest and greatest.
Pros always talk about money.
Masters always talk about light!​


And decided that for $4000 I will buy quality studio lighting and wait for the next round of 5D that has no dust issues and 14mp. I am pretty happy with the 5D and for small hands it's easier.
 

Jack Joseph Jr

New member
I haven't decided yet. The Mk3 definitely seems like it's going to be a nicer camera than my N. Will it make me a better photographer? Of course not. Will its ability to take technically better pictures under difficult conditions increase sales enough to pay for its cost therefore making it a wise business decision? I doubt it.

I want to see how much better the Mk3 performs than an N in the real world. That won't happen until cameras get in the hands of real photographers. All of the talk about running analysis on images just strikes me as silly.

God gave humans a great photo analysis tool; two eyes and a brain. Any camera that requires pixel peeping data to convince me to buy is certainly not worth buying at all. I just don't care about technical elements in an image that can't be seen.

The visual arts are all about "seeing". If I can't see the difference then perceiving a difference because of analytical data on a chart is just not honest to me. The more I read discussions about RAW vs. JPG and 8-bit vs. 16-bit the more I want to scream. Proponents of either side often end up slugging it out over lines per this and numbers of steps per that.

Neither of my bodies are anywhere close to being worn out. If, after the dust settles, I order a Mk3 it will probably just be because it's cool and because it's the latest. There is nothing wrong at all with buying every new camera model. It's fun. I just don't want the fun to get in the way of photography.
 
All of the talk about running analysis on images just strikes me as silly.

Yet it is because of that silliness that you can learn that e.g. shooting a 1Ds Mk II at ISO 400 produces about the same read noise as at ISO 160,which can be quite helpful to know when you want to eliminate camera shake, or want to use a smaller aperture for DOF...

Bart
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Kathy, you know how the old saying goes...​
Amateurs always talk about the latest and greatest.
Pros always talk about money.
Masters always talk about light!​

Anthony,

Professional Masters, also choose the particular tools for the job. When photographing a mega architectural marvel on the other side of the world, requiring a crane to hoist one to position, getting the perfect lens and camera can make that picture go from great to stellar.

Rainer Viertlbock often employs the finest Sinar Backs (he's tried everything) and custom re-machined Gottsschalt camera with XY movements.

m1.jpg


So there needs to be another category for adding technical excellence to mastery of light! What would you call it?


And decided that for $4000 I will buy quality studio lighting and wait for the next round of 5D that has no dust issues and 14mp. I am pretty happy with the 5D and for small hands it's easier.

Kathy,

The "no dust issues" will unlikely arrive! MFRs will choose material better that dont shed particles so readily. However, dust is part of life, everything breaks down to dust after all.

Asher
 

Jack Joseph Jr

New member
Yet it is because of that silliness that you can learn that e.g. shooting a 1Ds Mk II at ISO 400 produces about the same read noise as at ISO 160,which can be quite helpful to know when you want to eliminate camera shake, or want to use a smaller aperture for DOF...

Bart

Can you not learn that by actually taking photographs and then looking at them? Do they look the same on-screen, uprezzed, at 8x10, at 20x30?
 
Can you not learn that by actually taking photographs and then looking at them? Do they look the same on-screen, uprezzed, at 8x10, at 20x30?

Ah, but this is the point, both methods don't exclude but they complement each other. For the empirical approach that you prefer, one would either have to buy/rent the camera and take images oneself or rely on images taken by others (which may still not allow you to draw such ISO conclusions unless specifically targeted).

By analyzing a good image data set, many useful properties can be detected in advance and performance predicted. When the practical use confirms the predictions we can enhance the learning proces (prediction==result==experience).

Bart
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ah, but this is the point, both methods don't exclude but they complement each other. For the empirical approach that you prefer, one would either have to buy/rent the camera and take images oneself or rely on images taken by others (which may still not allow you to draw such ISO conclusions unless specifically targeted).

By analyzing a good image data set, many useful properties can be detected in advance and performance predicted. When the practical use confirms the predictions we can enhance the learning proces (prediction==result==experience).

Bart

And saves a lot of money potentially!

Asher
 

John Sheehy

New member
Can you not learn that by actually taking photographs and then looking at them? Do they look the same on-screen, uprezzed, at 8x10, at 20x30?

That's the slow way of learning, and in many cases, leads to no learning at all. Many things that seem obvious once they are known, are unknown until someone discovers them. In my own experience, my "obsession" with measurement has lead to a lot of useful information that people can use in their shooting. I was the one who first noticed, AFAIK, that the highest ISO or two on Canon DSLRs had fake ISOs (others may have noticed it independently, but I was the first one to bring the idea to usenet and DPReview; by the time I got to this forum and the old Rob Galbraith, it was common knowledge). Once I noticed this, I could demonstrate it, and people who found this out could choose to shoot at the highest real ISO, and keep more highlight headroom in their RAW captures. All ISO 3200 does on current Canons is throw away a stop of highlights in an under-exposed ISO 1600. This is a decision made by your heros with MAs in engineering. The logical thing to do, if you're not going to use ISO 3200-level analog gain is to leave the full DR of the camera's digitized capture, and just tag the RAW file to indicate that the white level is 1024 instead of the traditional 2048. That way, a converter can use these extra highlights - and you certainly want them when shooting in typical ISO 3200 lighting - a mix of light sources and shadows (theatres, concerts, streets at night).

Now, suppose that I didn't measure and test these things (as well as anyone else who may have discovered them independently), and the ball is in your court; you shoot one scene at ISO 1600 and print it, and then shoot a completely different scene at ISO 3200. How can you tell which is better to use, from these two separate events of "just taking pictures"? You'd probably never know, because you don't have a solid point of comparison. You *must* look at the RAW histograms, and/or measure noise in the same subjects (and/or blackness) in controlled settings to get a hint that this issue exists.

Another one that I brought to consciousness is the "extra ISOs" on the 30D; they are just pushes and pulls of the 20D ISOs that lose DR (the 125/250/etc set) or shift it around relative to metered middle grey (the 160/320/etc set), both posterizing the RAW data a little. People now know that ISO 125 is false economy (same read noise as ISO 640!) because I took the time to measure the noise, and examine the RAW data. Canon won't tell you this stuff, and I really doubt if many at Canon engineering are even fluent in this stuff. I can't have the same kind of blind faith in the engineers and experts at the company that you have; close inspection of their decisions shows that either they are not totally competent, or don't care about maximum image quality (where the cost is just firmware coding!), riding on the momentum of their name-brand recognition.

Another case in point - Canon's White papers for the big pixel (1D* and 5D) cameras state that they take high-ISO sensitivity to another level, by capturing more photons with bigger pixels, and that is an outright LIE; they capture about the same number of photons per pixel as the 20D at the same ISO, and *less* per square mm of sensor area, by a wide margin. The reason why the 1DmkII with its bigger pixels has lower practical noise than the 20D/30D is that the larger pixel pitch is less demanding on the lenses (they have more MTF contrast at their pixel pitch), so RAW data doesn't need as mush sharpening, so you get less sharpening of noise. Same principle applies to the AA filter - the AA filter is extremely weak in the 1D cameras, resulting in higher pixel-to-pixel contrast, requiring less sharpening (but causing more aliasing).

To believe and trust the powers that be in camera engineering, as you suggest in another thread, is misplaced blind faith, IMO.
 
Canon's White papers for the big pixel (1D* and 5D) cameras state that they take high-ISO sensitivity to another level, by capturing more photons with bigger pixels, and that is an outright LIE; they capture about the same number of photons per pixel as the 20D at the same ISO, and *less* per square mm of sensor area, by a wide margin.

That doesn't compute, but maybe you are inferring from something else.
- A given constant photon flux (e.g. the lens projection of a featureless blue sky during a fixed exposure time) with the same lens on a sensor array with smaller or larger sensels is identical per unit surface area. Changing the sensor array will not change the photon flux.
- However, each individual sensel will collect an amount of photons in proportion to the sensel's photosensitive area. That area is smaller on the smaller sensel pitch unit, so fewer photons (as absolute number) are collected per sensel in the same period of time.
- Given the smaller number of (photons turned into) electrons per small-pitch sensel, the inherent shot noise will be higher as a result of the Poisson statistics (which translates to; shot-noise equals the square root of the recorded number of photons). Take e.g. 10 exposures of a uniform source of light, and you will get 10 different electron counts from the same sensel. The differences will be larger on the small pitch (lower count) sensels.
- Other (electronic) noise sources are relatively (within their noise distribution) constant per sensel surface area. However, because of the lower saturation level (full potential well depth) of a smaller sensel, the electronic noise can contribute more to the ADC quantization result.

You are correct in stating that subsequent processing (such as sharpening) is likely to magnify all inherent differences from optics/diffraction/AA-filter/sensel area (IOW system MTF characteristics), but also the statistical noise differences from the shot noise and subsequent additions from electronic noise sources. That's why it is not a trivial exercise to make an unambiguous comparison, although a worthwhile one because of the trade-offs involved for specific types of photography (subjects and shooting conditions).

Bart
 

John Sheehy

New member
That doesn't compute, but maybe you are inferring from something else.
- A given constant photon flux (e.g. the lens projection of a featureless blue sky during a fixed exposure time) with the same lens on a sensor array with smaller or larger sensels is identical per unit surface area. Changing the sensor array will not change the photon flux.

True.

- However, each individual sensel will collect an amount of photons in proportion to the sensel's photosensitive area. That area is smaller on the smaller sensel pitch unit, so fewer photons (as absolute number) are collected per sensel in the same period of time.

True.

- Given the smaller number of (photons turned into) electrons per small-pitch sensel, the inherent shot noise will be higher as a result of the Poisson statistics (which translates to; shot-noise equals the square root of the recorded number of photons). Take e.g. 10 exposures of a uniform source of light, and you will get 10 different electron counts from the same sensel. The differences will be larger on the small pitch (lower count) sensels.

True, in general, but not true in the case of something like 1DmkII vs 20D. The mkII loses more photons per unit of area. It capitalizes on the optical benefits of larger pixel pitch, but not on the photon capture rate possible. It's like there's a neutral density filter over the mkII sensor, compared to th 20D, bringing its photon capture rate down to that of the 20D. Except for the lower read noise at ISOs 100 and 200, the mkII basically has similar electrical noise characteristics. The shot noise difference at any given ISO is about log((52300/51000)^0.5)/log(2) = 0.036 stops. High ISO read noise is about the same (MAXRAW/readnoise is actually a little higher for the 20D at ISO 1600).

-- Other (electronic) noise sources are relatively (within their noise distribution) constant per sensel surface area. However, because of the lower saturation level (full potential well depth) of a smaller sensel, the electronic noise can contribute more to the ADC quantization result.

I am starting to think that you think that I'm talking 1D vs P&S here. This is about 1DmkII or 5D vs 20D, and the lack of true electrical superiority at high ISOs for the 1DmkII, as claimed in Canon white papers.
 

John_Nevill

New member
I've been following this thread for while now and can keep up with some of the tech speak.

But, here's where I get confused, I have used the 10D, 20D and 1DmkIIN extensively for a wide variety of applications, both in low and high iso applications. Yet to my eyes the 1DmkIIN exhibits less noise than the 20D. In fact my cut off point was 400 iso on the 20D, whereas i'm happy to run the 1DmkIIN to <1000. So why is this?
 
True, in general, but not true in the case of something like 1DmkII vs 20D. The mkII loses more photons per unit of area. It capitalizes on the optical benefits of larger pixel pitch, but not on the photon capture rate possible.

I have not specifically tested the quantum efficiency of the 1DmkII(N) versus a 20D, so I cannot confirm the observation/derivation that there would be a loss of photons per unit area. It might help if you explain how you arrived at that conclusion.
A thing that I could imagine playing a role, might be a different density/bandwidth in CFA filters leading to different amplification in the ADC.

It's like there's a neutral density filter over the mkII sensor, compared to th 20D, bringing its photon capture rate down to that of the 20D. Except for the lower read noise at ISOs 100 and 200, the mkII basically has similar electrical noise characteristics. The shot noise difference at any given ISO is about log((52300/51000)^0.5)/log(2) = 0.036 stops. High ISO read noise is about the same (MAXRAW/readnoise is actually a little higher for the 20D at ISO 1600).

I'm not sure you were really comparing Photons/electrons. From your calculation example above it seems your conclusion is based on analyzing Digital Numbers (called DN or ADU depending on software used) in the Raw file after the ADC has done 'its thing'. If that is the case, but feel free to clarify, then it would be bold to claim a loss of photons, where it could be a difference in ADC amplification. The

I am starting to think that you think that I'm talking 1D vs P&S here. This is about 1DmkII or 5D vs 20D, and the lack of true electrical superiority at high ISOs for the 1DmkII, as claimed in Canon white papers.

No, I'm not thinking about P&S' here because you clearly specified the models under consideration. However, the general principles apply to all similarly implemented (Bayer CFA) sensels. Photosensitive area is one of the factors, but the differences are relatively limited between the models you mentioned (6.4 versus 8.2 micon pitch) but still significant (some 40% in area).

Yet to my eyes the 1DmkIIN exhibits less noise than the 20D. In fact my cut off point was 400 iso on the 20D, whereas i'm happy to run the 1DmkIIN to <1000. So why is this?

Your observation does follow the expectation, but it seems like John is focusing on something different, perhaps quantum efficiency?

Bart
 

John Sheehy

New member
I have not specifically tested the quantum efficiency of the 1DmkII(N) versus a 20D, so I cannot confirm the observation/derivation that there would be a loss of photons per unit area. It might help if you explain how you arrived at that conclusion.
A thing that I could imagine playing a role, might be a different density/bandwidth in CFA filters leading to different amplification in the ADC.

I'm going by the number of photons captured at RAW saturation (or any RAW level above black) at the same ISO, per pixel. The ratio is 52300:51000 for the 1DmkII vs the 20D, virtually unity.

Your observation does follow the expectation, but it seems like John is focusing on something different, perhaps quantum efficiency?

Yes. The 1DmkII has one of the lowest in the industry. It only gets 80,000 photons by having extra exposure (ISO 50). With the same exposure, it collects about the same number of photons per pixel or per image (since the number of pixels is the same) as a 20D, even though its pixels cover 50% more area each.
 
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