• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

The costs of doing business

Greetings,

it would be interesting to learn about your experiences.

Here in Ireland it is extremly costly, and ridiculously undersupported to setup a professional business. Internet Infrastructure is amongst the worst in Europe, and the costs of business has driven many companies to east european or asian countries already.

Even for a startup like me, I feel the pinch, just to give you an idea, and I would be really interested to hear about your cost situation on those 2 eaxmples as well.

INSURANCE:

The yearly business Insurance I was quoted today, and this assumes already a mandantory membership in a organisation of professional photographers, you wont get that insurance otherwise, hence is supposed to be discounted already, came to round about 1.600 Euro per year for the following package:

Equipment: Insured to a maximum of 30K
Public Liability: 6.5 Million max
Gross profit Loss: 635.000 max
Employees are insured as well

VISA - INTERNET:

This does not even cover the cost of hosting and website, it is only the cost for to have a VISA enabled/secured shopping cart:

1600 Euro per annum plus 400 setup fee, plus 2.2% of each transaction

Hefty or what do you think?
 
Last edited:

janet Smith

pro member
Definitely hefty!

Here in Ireland it is extremly costly, and ridiculously undersupported to setup a professional business. Internet Infrastructure is amongst the worse in Europe...

Hi Georg

The Visa cost is certainly high, as always with banks at the end of the day they only look after themselves.

The insurance you've been quoted also sounds high, and no doubt you'll be required to pay an annual subscription to the Professional association that you choose.

Difficulties with the internet in Ireland..... is there a timescale in place, do you know when you will have broadband?

All of the above are why I decided to try working with agencies first, now I am gradually seeing my sales pick up, I also get the odd job through my website, and have done some nice jobs in Scotland when I've been there. For me starting in a small way with very limited costs has been the approach I've adopted, but as you know I'm married to an Accountant.....
 
....I hate banks, but yeah, Paul certainly has a positive balance account having married you. <smile>

Time frame for broadband, yes of course, 2004! LOLOLOL Welcome to Ireland. Hehehe Now they talk about september-december, but I am not holding my breath.

I am activating a couple of contacts on that insurance thing, it just sounds ridiculous to me that you can not get cover without mandantory membership in a association, very strange, and yes, you have to pay that as well. Already spoke with a broker and she is looking into it, I forwarded her the quotation and told her not to bother if she can not quote much more competetive.

As for Visa, did I mention I hate flippin banks <grins>, I do not want to use paypal, I find it just too dodgy, so there is no way around it for me and I will run it for 1 year as a somewhat expensive trial.

I'll look into that stock agency stuff as well, but it is too early for me as I am not in the business of generating large amounts of files, and it is only then when such pays of I think.

May be I should open my business on Jersey instead. LOL
 
Hey Cem!

nice surprise, thanks for calling me!

Cem just mentioned to me that there is no need to have that VISA thing done in Ireland because of free economy etc. pp, and he sure is right on that part.

He said that there are services available to handle VISA and Mastercard, whether in the States or another European country, and the monthly costs and setup costs may come in way cheaper.

Definately worth looking into opening another account elsewhere on that purpose!

Of course, caution is advised on security and other relevant costs, but I think this is a good idea to look into! Thanks again Cem. :)
 

janet Smith

pro member
Hi Georg, thank you for your kind comments, I'm touched!

Don't become jaded or discouraged, these are challenges that I'm sure you'll find a way through. Get the camera out and go for a walk on that beach of yours tomorrow and remind yourself why you're doing all this.....

And as for hating banks - remember to be nice to the nice bank manager!!
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Hey Cem!

nice surprise, thanks for calling me!

Cem just mentioned to me that there is no need to have that VISA thing done in Ireland because of free economy etc. pp, and he sure is right on that part.

He said that there are services available to handle VISA and Mastercard, whether in the States or another European country, and the monthly costs and setup costs may come in way cheaper.

Definately worth looking into opening another account elsewhere on that purpose!

Of course, caution is advised on security and other relevant costs, but I think this is a good idea to look into! Thanks again Cem. :)

Hi Georg
I was going to post the same advice… so I just add that it should be the same for insurance…

As far as I remember (I can check tomorrow if you want, I pay 3.9% of value to insure my photo and video gear, it is a worldwide cover, which I guess you don't need, but the cover for thief isn't that good (I have to be attacked (OK I know a lot of good friends who are OK to help me on this, in cas needed!)…
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Georg,

I'm in a hurry -

Visa costs, etc. are high, and were rife with fraud. I know of folk who have lost a lot of money, through stolen cards.

I used Paypal. Never a problem. In fact, I bought a lens off an opf'r a year or two back, late on a Friday, in the uk. Paypal phoned me, on a Saturday morning from USA to UK, since the amount was unusual.

I signed up, when they were in USA, since then it was in Ireland, now Luxembourg. Provided you ship to the registered paypal account address, you are covered, more or less. There are other schemes, but Paypal is very easy for you to set up as a business, and easy for customers (I won't say which sector of usa gov. paid for a lot of my stuff, over a number of months, with Paypal)

But, in the UK, I'm finding a lot of folk will not buy anything over the internet, or use credit cards etc. My Irish customers sent me irish money - notes - via ordinary post. First time that happened, it nearly got burnt - £1200.00 of monopoly look-a-like paper, wrapped in the newspaper packing at the bottom of the cardboard box, no letter or anything. My bank took it, no probs, but a fiver from Scotland is much harder.

I don't know about Ireland, but you could get public liability insurance, if your work takes you into normal offices, etc. quite cheaply, in UK. Gear, do your own insurance -i.e. take the risk until you are earning. If you need professional liability, and you fell trees near power lines, you won't want to pay for that ;-)

Get yourself a good accountant, who deals with small businesses. Ask around who folk use. He will be able to mention a few names for the other bits.

Generally, best to start selling stuff, watch that grow, before you start paying rip off web designers, insurance salesmen, and the like. You will get loads of them, selling you advertising and so on.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
USA Cost of Business

Here the price to insuree your equipment runs about 3% of the insured amount or $90 per $10,000 but that does not include General Liability and errors and omissions, which can run another $300-500 or more.
You need that incase some one decides to fall over your tripod or such mishaps that can happen. We also need to cover employees injured during the course of business and that kind of policy costs about $3-5$ per hundred dollars of payroll.

For credit card acceptance here it runs aout 2.5% plus some misc. fees here and there. We are lucky to have high speed data of several varieties. At home we pay about $40 for cable modem and I have ultra high speed at the office for $70


Then there are telephones to add in and office supplies, payrol ltaxes for employees, electricity to run the place and a long laundry list.

Really fun for me at the moment is that I am doing the budget and sales forcsting for another photographer's studio.
 
@Ray, LOLOLOL, this is so typical, wrapped in newspaper and send in a box with no message whatsoever. Hehehehe! The clocks truly run different here. I like it!

I would differ on your approach, Public and product liability insurance is a crucial thing to have in my experience. Call it prudence. See, you send a chap a print in a nice halbe Rahmen (Aluminium frames) Now it happens that one corner fo that frame is as sharp as a raisorblade, and you did not see that. He openes the package and cuts himself severly into his right hand, and is out of job for 2 weeks etc.

Or like Kathy said, someone stumbles over your tripod or cables then brakes a leg etc.

While this may sound ridiculous, such **** happens, and can lead to exorbitant high costs and claims against you with the potential to put you out of business. Public and product liability is a must have in my book.

@Nicolas, at a glance 3.9% sounds high to me.

However worldwide cover was included in my offer as well, and yes I would need that as well.

@Kathy, laundry list....? ....LAUNDRY LIST! LOL Never thought about that. Thanks! :)

@Janet, not discouraged at all, and yes she is a nice bank manager... a very nice bank manager, very very nice in deed! Hehehe, dangerous combination isn't it? Nah, just kiddin, I am in the fortunate situation to be able to trust her, and it helps to have a good relationship with your bank in deed!

Got a response form someone in germany as well, he pays 2.2% on insurance value and 192 for product and public liability including one employee.

So all in all, the offer I have on the table ain't that bad at all considering the package, however I try to get two more offers via a broker and one more that I get myself to compare them.

Thanks very much for your replies, outstanding! :)
 

janet Smith

pro member
So all in all, the offer I have on the table ain't that bad at all considering the package, however I try to get two more offers via a broker and one more that I get myself to compare them. Thanks very much for your replies, outstanding! :)

Hi Georg

It's a pleasure to be able to help, even in a very small way, glad that you're finding your way through the mire, I'm sure you'll come up trumps!!
 
That was included in my offer here. Funny thing, many such as ALLIANZ say " We don't do photographers."

Makes you feel as if you started a red light district business. LOL :)
 

John_Nevill

New member
Georg,

Insurance try PhotoGuard, I got quoted £75 per month for £15k equipment (assumed it wont all be out at the same time) with EU and 30 day worldwide plus £1m PL and in car and hire cover.

For secure website, I also suggest paypal, it cover all the leading credit / debit cards and cost between 1.4% to 3.4%, while withdrawals cost zero over £50.
 

John_Nevill

New member
Georg,

It makes me laugh, with supposed globalisation and off-shoring practise rife amongst all manner of business sectors, yet they are prejudice about who they insure. Their loss!
 

Ray West

New member
Georg,

If it wasn't clear, I said you _do_ need to get public liability insurance, but it was not expensive for what I did here. I said don't bother with insuring your gear, if you can't afford to (meaning you will look after it, I hope), and generally it wears out or is outdated when you need to replace it, but you can assist the risk/cost of damage better than the insurance folk, who will be making a profit from the careful folk.

If you need professional indemnity, or whatever its called e.g. if you cut trees by power lines, you will not want to pay for that - the premium for some professions are very high. Also, you keep paying the premium for about 8 years after you cease trading, in some types of business.

But, I expect the way it is handled over the water, is different than here, and I'm talking a few years back, and an entirely different type of business I guess.

The most important thing, before worrying about this, is to get customers.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

janet Smith

pro member
Also, you keep paying the premium for about 8 years after you cease trading, in some types of business.

Hi Ray

I didn't know this, definately something to be aware of when taking out insurance, no doubt they won't point this out to you, it'll be in the small print somewhere....


The most important thing, before worrying about this, is to get customers

Have to say I agree with you on this point, which is why I've started in the way that I have to try and gauge response first before incurring too much expenditure....
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Janet,

In my situation, the 8 years was wrt writing bespoke commercial software. It may be similar in photography, I don't know, thinking if a print fades, whatever, guess it depends on the warranty period. btw, re small print - it means nothing. Generally not valid if printed in light grey on the back of an invoice, for example. There has to be big print, too ;-).

Best wishes,

Ray
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
In another thread (Sinar's diary), Georg did write (about bying a Sinar MF system)
On a more serious note, as you already own an established business with some sort of secured revenue streams, personally, I would consider leasing the system over three years. May be an idea? The quality enhancement in your final product should be reflected in your prices and pay for the rates, ideally.
I think it is less OT here and would like to give a quick and easy answer.

My wife and I have started our own company in 1993.
The way we have always wanted to

The way we always wanted to manage our company has always been to buy new equipment only when we had the finance in bank. It is not a very dynamic system but it works! No banker knocking at the door, we sleep better!

It is always very difficult to increase quickly and significantly a rate to regular customers. Some will follow but not all … The sweetest way is to proceed gradually.

As says Ray, getting customers is the most important matter for a company, to keep them also!
Most of them, seeing the results have endless wows and waws, but still keep saying that they don't need such quality… if they have to pay more to get it!

So, we'll see, tomorrow is another day!

ideally;-)
 

John_Nevill

New member
I totally agree that getting customers is the most important issue, but nowadays I'd put public Liability insurance as a prerequisite to this.

Many businesses / customers will ask for copies of PL certificates before they even engage you. I was invited to exhibit at a large country fair next month and that was number one of their check list along with risk assessments!
 
I admire this Nicolas, and there is a lot of truth and advantage about it. Then again there are always two sides to a coin. What I think about your niche market is this:

It is a client base where money is not the first consideration, but quality. - Right? Wrong? -

You carved out that market for Claris, hence differenciated your business form xyz photography services available on every corner. Another differentiator, and probably equally important is your final product. This is defined by your artistry and your gear. The latter we can buy, the first not!

At the end of the day it is a matter of input versus output. If an investment of round about 30.000 euro (camera, DB, lenses) does not bring you the desired ROI within 3 years, then it is a bad deal, because as we know, by the end of the 3 years, well, we probably have 100MP DB's, so you want to be able to stay ahead of the game in terms of technical quality and reinvest again. ....Just a few thoughts....

Hey John, meanwhile I have 4 brokers activated. What a drag! Can you rent me your dogs place on Jersey? LOL ;)

P.S.
I really had to laugh hard... here I am... starting with a 5MP camera. ROFLMAO :)
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
What I think about your niche market is this:

It is a client base where money is not the first consideration, but quality. - Right? Wrong? -

Right, but as usual, they all want the best quality for the lowest price, hence a balance to find and meanwhile a slow but sure evolution with new clients to higher rates as we get more and more good branding… Our strategy, based on the long term is to increase our income keeping the company small.
In our case, smll is beautifull (and our strength).

You carved out that market for Claris, hence differenciated your business form xyz photography services available on every corner. Another differentiator, and probably equally important is your final product. This is defined by your artistry and your gear. The latter we can buy, the first not!

Same for you! you have the niche of the most beautifully dramatic landscape around you, the obvious artistry skill and AFAIK the gear is to arrive soon…

At the end of the day it is a matter of input versus output. If an investment of round about 30.000 euro (camera, DB, lenses) does not bring you the desired ROI within 3 years, then it is a bad deal, because as we know, by the end of the 3 years, well, we probably have 100MP DB's, so you want to be able to stay ahead of the game in terms of technical quality and reinvest again. ....Just a few thoughts....

Right!
I have always wanted to have the best DSLR gear existing at the moment, since 2000 I bought (and sold):
1 Nikon D1
1 Nikon D1x
1 Canon 1Ds
1 Canon 1Ds Mk2
1 Canon 1Ds Mk3

plus of course the best Nikkor lenses and later Canon L…

But each time I knew I could afford (after resaling the previous)

I really had to laugh hard... here I am... starting with a 5MP camera. ROFLMAO :)

My first dslr was the Nikon D1: 2.7 Mpix and we made magazine covers with that!
Of course 33 Mpix eMotion Sinar Back is another venture… ;-)
 
Our strategy, based on the long term is to increase our income keeping the company small.
In our case, smll is beautifull (and our strength).

Sounds as if there are two ways to achieve that, increase the prices, or work more. ;)

We have a smiliar thinking here, I intend to stay small as well, no interest in big overheads at all.

Having said that, the 3 years projections allows for 1-2 fulltime emplyoyees doing matting/framing and shipping, eventually printing as well, but that's about it, don't want more of that.

We plan a small studio/gallery on our land here, again, also a longterm 3 years projection. I always believed, if you have a "vision", you can achieve it with a good plan, a lot of work, and well, as a matter of course a little bit of luck as well.

Right, but as usual, they all want the best quality for the lowest price

I might be wrong, but I can not imagine you to have a lot of competition. Or are there plenty of Yacht photographers around your place hanging from helicopters?
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
For a tiny company… increase price AND work more! the price of the so called freedom ;-) (not having a boss, but clients)


After 15 years we're 4…

Vision… plans…work…work and work.

To catch the luck when it passes by, you have to be there!

Competition? oh yes! there are plenty guys shooting, some good ones, many less… But why aren't they hung on a tree isntead of a shopper ?-)

More seriously, we're successfull because beside of professionalism, we provide full service from marketing strategy to final marketing tools (all based on images)
 

Alain Briot

pro member
The way we always wanted to manage our company has always been to buy new equipment only when we had the finance in bank. It is not a very dynamic system but it works! No banker knocking at the door, we sleep better!

I follow the same approach. Must be a French thing ;-) I don't like to pay interest. I prefer to collect it!
 
Top