Open Photography Forums  
HOME FORUMS NEWS FAQ SEARCH

Go Back   Open Photography Forums > OPF Welcome Hall > Layback Cafe

Layback Cafe Let's chat!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 17th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Smile Should active OPF members be generally expected to post images?

If someone is a registered member, we've never insisted they even post once! That's fine by me. However, when a guy posts a lot in chat form and no images are shared, then what? To me it's like coming to the pot luck and never once bringing wine or a pizza.

However, do we expect anything? Should it be that to use the forum just for personal stories, opinions on general photography a balance in other threads with pictures would be considered reasonable and fair?

Imant's K., for clear example wants to post links, not images, we did not allow this. That was a definite breach. We want our pages beautiful and rich with content too! Another member posts a lot of personal stories but no pictures as of yet and says we have no standards. Well, should we not expect images?

Do we need some sign of photography or else, in lieu of occasional sharing of images, some other value to this community. This could be, for example, obviously valuable guidance from really experienced photographers or experts who help us out with their specialty?

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 17th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Mike Shimwell Mike Shimwell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 1,792
Default

Asher

I think we need to be happy to 'pass pictures around the front room' - ideally whilst sharing a suitable beverage.

I try to post images that fall into probably 3 categaories - pictures I'm really please with, pictures I'm unsure about and want some critique (though I'll always welcome constructive comment on any picture - anything that he or help with the idea (though I'm always open to criticism or comment that helps me grow my work) and pictures that I just want to share for some reason (there'll be another tonight). Equally, I try to comment on other pictures, and if I am confident in the other poster I'll add my constructive criticism - always aware that I am a pretty simple fellow and that we all have out own creative bent that must be respected.

It's a shame about Imants, but everyone comes to my living room as an equal in value if not in ability, not as a prima donna. You appear to have a similar approach

Best

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 17th, 2009, 05:12 PM
Maris Rusis Maris Rusis is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Noosa, Queensland, Australia.
Posts: 381
Default

I won't be posting any pictures. All my pictures are made from light sensitive materials and are basically flat sheets of matter bearing marks. I don't own a scanner and never will. My business card bears the phrase "Guaranteed No Digital". Fortunately I no longer have to work for a living and my time is my own.

And yet I spend a goodly part of my waking hours nearly every day making photographs, looking at photographs, studying the historical and technical aspect of photography, and writing about photography. OPF is immensely valuable as it provides a forum with a unique mix of genuine intellectual rigor, aesthetic insight, philosophical credibility, and civility.

I suspect much of the original virtue of this forum emanates from Asher Kelman himself who exemplifies a urbane, literate, and liberal presence. It would be sad to lose contact because I don't download enough "screen lookers".
__________________
"Photography or the application of the chemical rays of light to the purpose of pictorial representation...". Photography, the word, coined and first uttered by Sir John Herschel at the Royal Society, Somerset House, London; 14 March, 1839.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 17th, 2009, 05:37 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maris Rusis View Post
I won't be posting any pictures. All my pictures are made from light sensitive materials and are basically flat sheets of matter bearing marks. I don't own a scanner and never will. My business card bears the phrase "Guaranteed No Digital". Fortunately I no longer have to work for a living and my time is my own.

And yet I spend a goodly part of my waking hours nearly every day making photographs, looking at photographs, studying the historical and technical aspect of photography, and writing about photography. OPF is immensely valuable as it provides a forum with a unique mix of genuine intellectual rigor, aesthetic insight, philosophical credibility, and civility.

I suspect much of the original virtue of this forum emanates from Asher Kelman himself who exemplifies a urbane, literate, and liberal presence. It would be sad to lose contact because I don't download enough "screen lookers".
Hi Maris,

You are already covered as someone who's work, influence and authority already puts you in a category of value to OPF for your opinions not your quips or jokes. So although I would like to get you drunk enough to scan your pictures or copy some with my DSLR, I'm happy that you are here, without posting images as we are served by that. The fact is that if you are to have a gallery opening and it's promoted on the web, the gallery owner will no doubt show representative images for his clients! All my invitations have pictures!

So this does not apply to you although you are still stubborn as a mule, LOL!

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 17th, 2009, 05:44 PM
ErikJonas ErikJonas is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 453
Default ...............

This thread was started in part cause of me....I am not going to go open a account on a image hosting site just so i can upload images...If i could up load images directly then i would do so eventually but not right away. I just want a feel of the board....

If you make it a requierment you then restrict the board to photographers and not to simple folk who like just to look and talk and art should be able to be appritiated by all...But again...Limit the board by requiring posting and that only hurts the forum. The less interactive it is the less enjoyable it is on a broader spectrum.....So if John Deer wants to come to the forum and just admire works and chat with photographers and see what their thoughts are but not post this would not be allowed???

I wont be posting in the Critique section cause i really could careless what others think of my images. I am extremely grateful to those who spend their hard earned money on my images. Every time i make a sale i am sure to say "thankyou for supporting my art"......On the Critiquing of images i really like what Brooks Jensen had to say about that in a older issue of Lens Work....I still have more to learn, thats always a on going thing.....Some people like to tear down others work, that makes them feel better about themselves....I know that some people are wanting me to post jut so they can do as such....

Again....How would it benefit the board to make it so you had to post?....It would not....And input from non-photographers can be as valueable as input from other photographers....Like i said though...Institute what your saying and you get someone who just wants to be here and share thoughts and enjoy the images and that would not be allowed????
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 17th, 2009, 05:58 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Alamogordo, New Mexico, USA
Posts: 8,399
Default Just stoppin' by to get my tricket punched

Greetings,

Just stoppin ' by to get my ticket punched.



Douglas A. Kerr—On the Way

Two 1.5" diameter (1.6 MCM) aluminum-steel conductors begin their journey to the "pulling point", 3.6 miles away, in an upgrade to a 345 kV power transmission line near our place.

They pass through a pulling sheave ("dolly") on a crane on their way to the first tower. (There is another one at each tower, and a couple more on cranes to help the conductors make it across Interstate 20.)

The crane in the right foreground is loading another reel of cable onto a trailer so it can get into the act when the first reels are emptied.

Canon EOS 40D, Sigma 18-200 mm f/3.5-6.3 at 51 mm, ISO 400, f/14, 1/500 sec. Full frame, presented here at 23% of original resolution. Ex camera except for downsampling and the attendant sharpening.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
If someone is a registered member, we've never insisted they even post once! That's fine by me. However, when a guy posts a lot in chat form and no images are shared, then what? To me it's like coming to the pot luck and never once bringing wine or a pizza.

However, do we expect anything?
Yes Asher,

If one is in any way interested in photography/imaging, I'd expect some sort of image contribution. It may not be of stellar artistical proportions or if one is learning, or if it is to illustrate an important notion, but an image is expected. I do prefer images of stellar proportions/impact, rather than the other ones ..., depending on the forum.

Quote:
Should it be that to use the forum just for personal stories, opinions on general photography a balance in other threads with pictures would be considered reasonable and fair?
If it's just for personal positioning/gain, then no! Sharing also has an element of sacrifice/giving. If one isn't willing to share/be vulnerable, then one is only practicing one-way communication (which isn't COmunincation).

Quote:
Imant's K., for clear example wants to post links, not images, we did not allow this. That was a definite breach. We want our pages beautiful and rich with content too!
Imants didn't COmunicate anything else than his own agenda. He sold himself short.

Quote:
Another member posts a lot of personal stories but no pictures as of yet and says we have no standards. Well, should we not expect images?
Erik is walking a thin line ... We/I do expect images rather than a chat forum. We/I expect a considerable contribution, or a serious quest for knowledge/inspriration. Of course not everybody is a recognised professional, but that is no excuse to lower the expectations. We/I expect a strive for more/better/improvement/learning/community.

Quote:
Do we need some sign of photography or else, in lieu of occasional sharing of images, some other value to this community. This could be, for example, obviously valuable guidance from really experienced photographers or experts who help us out with their specialty?
I do like the low(?) threshold, but it should be clear that the visual/intellectual expectations are higher than with other common sites, for now or as a goal for the future. As I understand it, OPF is not for huge volume traffic but for open, yet quality, high quality interaction involving photography. There is also room for a bit of fun, or personal content. We are a community of kindred spirits, for better and worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Shimwell View Post
I think we need to be happy to 'pass pictures around the front room' - ideally whilst sharing a suitable beverage.
I don't only like the images part, but also like the beverage part, even though I'm not able to share the fine 'double wood' Irish 'beverage' I'm enjoying at the moment. Passing puctures, and related stuff, is something that's do-able though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Shimwell View Post
Equally, I try to comment on other pictures, and if I am confident in the other poster I'll add my constructive criticism - always aware that I am a pretty simple fellow and that we all have out own creative bent that must be respected.
The 'other' creative bend is what makes it interesting, IMHO! We can only learn, be inspired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Shimwell View Post
It's a shame about Imants, but everyone comes to my living room as an equal in value if not in ability, not as a prima donna.
Hear, hear.

Cheers,
Bart
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:09 PM
ErikJonas ErikJonas is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 453
Default ...........

Bart....I never said i'd not post...If i could up load a image from my computer i would do so and theres a legal issue i have to deal with as well which i made some mention of to you Asher.I'm not going into detail on it here...

In my post where i said i could careless what anyone though of my work that reads harsher then i intended it to be....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug_Kerr View Post
Greetings,

Just stoppin ' by to get my ticket punched.
Hi Doug,

Ticket punch recorded!

In fact your image, so far is the only one in this post(!), has interesting qualities about it. Whether intentional or otherwise, there is a 'rule of thirds' (or rather golden section), sectioning.

Without the added comments it raises a question of what's being hoisted.

Cheers,
Bart
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Oh, dear. What a can of worms. Asher, think carefully about this.

During my time at OPF, I've learned that photos are wanted, but more than just photos. What's wanted are photos of high quality. Now, if you want everyone to post photos, and want those photos to be of high quality, you're going to have to change the name of the forum to "Talented Photographer's Forum" or something similar.

Furthermore, you don't have to post images to be helpful. Posting critiques (even if the critic does not shoot her/himself) is useful. In fact, reactions of ANYONE can be helpful because people know what they like. If any of us have a desire to sell, it's those "everyday people" likely to be among the buyers.

Finally, what's wrong with a chat forum? Why can't there be one place (Layback?) for chat? Interpersonal connections and interaction certainly have value. Why can't photographers have one small space to connect on that level? After all, what's more likely to be on one's headstone: "Beloved Friend" or "Kick-Ass Photographer?"

Now, having said that, I'm cool with whatever policy is adopted. But I do urge Asher and the Mod Squad to carefully consider the ramifications of various policies.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:34 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikJonas View Post
Bart....I never said i'd not post...If i could up load a image from my computer i would do so and theres a legal issue i have to deal with as well which i made some mention of to you Asher.I'm not going into detail on it here...

In my post where i said i could careless what anyone though of my work that reads harsher then i intended it to be....
Erik,

We are most generous in tolerating a lot of chat, even enjoying it, but there's enough time already to know whether we're genuine ourselves and worth trusting or not. Our criticism is not up to that of any curator of a major museum but it's a real attempt to share ideas on what make us feel something about a photograph. Everyone has to have respect for their own intent and the humility to put their own work out for viewing. I've had pictures simply ignored. Other times suggestions I've made knocked down, but that's part of taking the risk to be part of a community. We're kind and nurturing.

I cannot see any legal impediments to you taking 20 shots a week and posting 2-3 here. To the extent that you have the rights to your pictures under legal challenge, if that's the case, fine, show other images. setting up a free account on Smugmug, Flikr or what have you, is so easy!

OPF Hosting: I'll share with you that we've purchased the Cloud Server space but there's a ton of work to do setting up the database on the new site and then testing it. As for image uploads, we have to see what the load might be and how we want to use that going forward. We need to assess what kind of galleries we might have as some folk have very strong opinions against it, believe it or not!

So please treat yourself as just another member of the community: get your pictures hosted! You talk of your many customers on a number of occasions and the visits to Lens magazine to chat with Brooks and others there. Well, then, you must have some pictures to show that aren't under legal constraint. After all, how could you sell any, if you lack the clear title!

So find a way!

As a result of this, I have asked Mike Shimwell to draft a fair a guideline about images. Certainly, we cannot just be a chat forum. Beer and no pictures doesn't work! You are not a bedridden old lady of 95. You're able to take pictures and know enough to talk about print size, framing, the names of publishers, selling prices, rules of including or excluding limbs and even etiquette with nude models and more! So you, according to your own posture are experienced. Well then, sharing no pictures is not fair. An excuse is not a reason!

The Scythians were a fearless and brutal population of warrior clans, (that plundered, led a good life) and really were connoisseurs of the arts! They had a weakness for wonderfully ornate fine jewelry and ceremonial objects made in gold. IMHO, there's no gold-work to match that of the Scythians!

But it wasn't a sense of just "anyone" can simply "turn up" to enjoy the spoils. There was a sign over the warrior chief's tent, (packed with bounty after their latest raid on some hapless community), "No head, no booty". So the battle and slaughter weary fighters lined up with a string of heads they cut off, to justify their place in the booty tent.

So, Erik, where's the head dripping with fresh blood? Anyone can talk! but you must also show something eventually.

Said in the New York Chinese Laundry vernacular, "No ticky, no laundry!"

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.

Last edited by Asher Kelman; October 17th, 2009 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old October 17th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Oh, my! Asher, you do turn a phrase with aplomb!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old October 17th, 2009, 07:39 PM
ErikJonas ErikJonas is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 453
Default ................

Asher.......This kind of thinking is very new and its NOT like this on other forums...The legal issue i face has NOTHING to do with my images,i will try to explain more in a note...

How about this....I'm sure no one on this board cares about my images other then to try to discredit them like the one poster in my Pentax thread tried to discredit me....But how about i e-mail you 3 or 4 of my images,you can post them in a thread in the Cafe section then others can see and mock or whatever as they choose.....

The one thing i have heard from 3 photographers is that when they saw the web size image of mine it looked a bit washed out but when they saw my actual prints they look great...I dont know why that would be be it from compression from the tool i use to re-size to a low res web file or what.....

Anyway....I'll send you 3 or 4 an you post them in the Layback section......I'm not making a page at mugshot or flikr..I have no interest in that....Which is why i dont curretly have anything there...Its not of interest to me,not something i am going to spend the time setting up or dealing with....
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old October 17th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maris Rusis View Post
I won't be posting any pictures.

I suspect much of the original virtue of this forum emanates from Asher Kelman himself who exemplifies a urbane, literate, and liberal presence. It would be sad to lose contact because I don't download enough "screen lookers".
Maris is a prime example of members who add a great deal but don't post images themselves. Maris has made some extremely astute comments that have made me think and helped my growth as a would-be artist. Ray West is another. And there are others as well.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old October 18th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Mike Shimwell Mike Shimwell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 1,792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
After all, what's more likely to be on one's headstone: "Beloved Friend" or "Kick-Ass Photographer?"
I know which I'd prefer - and it doesn't begin with kick ass (which I presume is a positive Americanism)

And Bart, the double woods are intersting. Perhaps one day I'll have the opportunity to tell you about a memorable tour of a bonding warehouse in Scotland.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old October 18th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

OOPS! Once again I forgot the international nature of the board and devolved into colloquialisms. Yes, it is positive, in a back-handed "in-your-face" (confrontational) way.

Thanks, Mike.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old October 18th, 2009, 08:23 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,307
Default

Twitter
Facebook
OPF?

sesame street..thats me..see and then hear. my son grew up watching it. he is a doctor now. see!

when u want to shoot..shoot. don't talk.

Regards.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old October 18th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,300
Default

I strongly echo Rachel's remark: "Oh, dear. What a can of worms. Asher, think carefully about this."

Among the strengths of OPF is that it's not Flickr. It's also not a gear hound club. It's a generally mature, thoughtful place where many aspects of the photographic process and photographic appreciation can be discussed. No, it's not really all that broad of a membership. But Asher makes sure that it remains an open-minded place.

It's also worth noting that many people are very involved in photography but never take a photo. I attended an event Friday evening where a handful of people dropped over a quarter million of their dollars on photographic art that would never pass muster on any Internet form -- including here. I doubt that any of the buyers ever attempt serious photography, either. But they're all deeply involved in supporting the photographic art community.

But like Doug, I'll punch my ticket to be on the safe side. None of these images have anything near the intended impact in such tiny form and at 72 dpi. Each features immersive detail which is lost here. But here are three from an abstract/expressionist series I've currently in development.





__________________
- Ken Tanaka -
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old October 18th, 2009, 10:44 AM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Ken, the second one intrigues me a great deal. I'd love to see that one large. Will it eventually hang in a gallery?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old October 18th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
Administrator/Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Bordeaux
Posts: 5,663
Default

Bonjour à tous
I guess it's time for me to get out of th bush.
Most of you do know that I have been with Asher since the very early days, when we didn't even know that we'll build OPF :-)
One of the most important thing in OPF, one of the more significative and efficient has been to ask to new registrant to use REAL NAMES.
I am convinced that this is one of the reasons for the "good" tone of wording, comments and mutual respect that is not found in other fora…

When someone does comment or critique one of my photo, in order to accept it as valuable, I need to know who this person that's says wow or pffff…
Wether the critique is positive or negative, if I want it to become positive, I must know the "quality" of the commentator.
How's that? because people who register do always post a link to their website if they have one, and if not and if I really want to search more, they can't really hide from the Internet (very rare ones can do so… though).
OTOH when one does not hide behind a fake name, one's behavior is much more "responsible", polite and welcoming.
Because what we write is directly connected to our name, hence it has a direct incidence of our own ID's image.
So knowing the name of OPF members does benefit to all of us (I don't like the idea of "communauty", to me it embeds the contrary of openness) .

But what's the reason of posting this here?
Because showing an image we have done/shot/built/snapped is also a part of our indentity, a part of ourselves.
Hence the importance of showing also our pics.

Now, for those who have not followed the threads and "discusion" between Iman K and I (and some others like Bart as well) do know that I decided to ban Iman K. Taht was tough to do, all in all, a bad day :-( but no regret.
Here: http://www.openphotographyforums.com...ead.php?t=9988
and finally there: http://www.openphotographyforums.com...ead.php?t=9995

I have no problem with discussions without posting photos, even if they are with another subject such as in "Provocative Thoughts and Images" but also in any discussion about photography, non photographers can have interesting and valuable point of views, critics, philosophers, writers or whoever they are.

The problem for me is when someone post links to their website without posting images in their threads.
A minimum of communication is required to really suggest a visit out of here. For more of my feeling on this, you may read the links pasted above.

Also posting never ending texts 'asking for' or 'giving' advices without illustrating is the same "error" than above.

I have no problem with regular posters of images to have write only posts from time to time, in fact what I don't wish is people that NEVER post photos. Unless they do have a strong valuable ability to comment, OPFers have registered to show and look.

After all, sharing means that there are at least two parties… Communication is not a one way road.
Thank you to have read my not so good English, I hope I've been understanble.

And even if Doug and Ken posts with image made me laugh, I won't post a pic here ;-)
__________________
WEBSITE - FACEBOOK - INSTAGRAM
Please do no repost my images elsewhere than OPF without my permission.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old October 18th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Alain Briot Alain Briot is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Posts: 1,423
Default

I just posted two new photographs in the medium format thread :-)
__________________
Alain Briot
Fine Art, workshops, books: Get 40 Free eBooks when you subscribe to my newsletter:
http://www.beautiful-landscape.com
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old October 18th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

I was unaware of this event and this discussion. I wish I could chalk that up to "artistic temperament" or "misunderstanding due to language differences" but clearly, neither is the case.

I know it does not matter, but I fully support the decision to ban Imant K. None of the Mod Squad receives payment (as far as I know) for their work on the forum. Even if they did, that does not require them to take abuse. I myself have been chastised for frivolous posts in the past, and while I chafed under such (in my opinion) overly strict rules, the simple fact is that it's not my board, I don't make the rules, and I don't do the work to keep it up and running. More importantly, I've gotten a great deal out of participation here and I do deeply appreciate the professional tone and civility that is expected and required here.

So, now that I have a fuller understanding of the issues, I will again exhort the Powers (Asher and the Mods) to carefully consider ramifications of policies. In fact, I see the issue as a bit different than how I read Asher's presentation of it. It's not a question of posting or not posting images. Rather it's a question of behaving courteously and respectfully. Along with that, OPF should not be used as a venue to drum up traffic for one's own website for reasons of personal gain. Thus, one should not post a link and use OPF as bait to lure traffic to one's own website.

So, in essence, is this not more of an issue of behaving appropriately and participating in OPF in good faith rather than being abusive and exploiting OPF?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:10 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
I It's not a question of posting or not posting images. Rather it's a question of behaving courteously and respectfully.
Rachel,

Not quite! Think of this as a party. Some could bring no new pictures and we'd still treasure and enjoy their company. Each already brings experience and judgement. (Of course, we want Maris to post his fine photography and would be startled if either Bart or Ken stopped!)

Others are expected to occasionally bring some pizza or a bottle of wine! One can't enjoy the goodies others so openly share. That is simply not good manners. Also, as Nicolas implies, it's the window to their own identity, what they choose to bring. After all, who makes lasagna like Maria or Hungarian goulash like Imre? Normally, when friends gather, no one gives out a rule sheet, they just know what good etiquette is. Here, from time to time, someone arrives and makes a rainstorm of chatty threads but there's nothing to bite on. Sheer volume of fun comments can't make up for occasional really meaningful contributions.

When Ken writes, or Bart gives some advice, I read that twice and even may bookmark the posts! That's how useful they might be. They can quip, rattle or joke as much as they want since it's backed up by an identity that works here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
When Along with that, OPF should not be used as a venue to drum up traffic for one's own website for reasons of personal gain. Thus, one should not post a link and use OPF as bait to lure traffic to one's own website.
Well, Rachel,

Let's be entirely open about this. There's a lot that goes on under the surface. Still, it might surprise you that none of the team here begrudges active contributors improving their own standing through OPF! We want to see everyone grow! It must, however to be a fair exchange of support! Involvement with OPF has to be real. No one is going to tolerate one way traffic.

To start with, we devote huge blocks of time to check for harvesters of names and block access to your contact information. All members are screened, website if available checked, we filter for spammers and more. The community ends up highly selected as a resource ripe for exploitation. We don't want that!

Still we can permit folk to benefit from all this. For example, Alain Briot has an active business of selling educational materials, books and art. He admits that he's an artist photographer business man who actively market's himself. He contributes by posting photographs, of course we'd like even more! Yes, I know folk go from here to join a workshop or buy a DVD. However, we always are mutually alert to a balance. We want to be generous and would do the same for you. Someone here would notice if it was utterly wrong and complain. So this is an active area for administration and that's why you might notice Cem banning one or two new people a month who passed all my checks yet arrive to selfishly hawk just their own services.

As long as the person is qualified to offer the service they offer, we're generous.

A suggestion to posters: Each posted image should be matched by 4-5 useful comments sometime, that week or so, to other photographer's threads. Like behavior at a dinner party, this is governed by simple good manners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
So, in essence, is this not more of an issue of behaving appropriately and participating in OPF in good faith rather than being abusive and exploiting OPF?
True!

We want to develop our pictures and have fun in a nice place for humor and exchange on what we're so passionate about and then, of course, everything else too.

Asher

..and BTW, Doug paid his way above; but that Ken... hmmm? Those abstracts? Well, that's for a separate discussion!
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Rachel,

Not quite! Think of this as a party. Some could bring no new pictures and we'd still treasure and enjoy their company. Each already brings experience and judgement. (Of course, we want Maris to post his fine photography and would be startled if either Bart or Ken stopped!)
Yes, that's what I meant. One does not have to post images in order to make valuable contributions.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:26 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,574
Default

Since it's time to pay our way, this won't get me in the first class cabin, but maybe standing room in the caboose? I'd hate to be thrown from the train now!


Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:26 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
...(Of course, we want Maris to post his fine photography and would be startled if either Bart or Ken stopped!)
Hi Asher,

What about this one or this by Bart then? Or this by Ken?

Cheers,
__________________
Kind Regards, Cem

flickr
website
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
Hi Asher,

What about this one or this by Bart then? Or this by Ken?

Cheers,
Precisely!

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old October 18th, 2009, 01:59 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Precisely!

Asher
Then I am afraid I did not understand your original message. I thought you wrote that you'd be surprised if Bart or Ken would post some pics. Obviously not, so please ignore my previous message.

Cheers,
__________________
Kind Regards, Cem

flickr
website
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old October 18th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Mike Shimwell Mike Shimwell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: North Yorkshire, UK
Posts: 1,792
Default

Sorry, no passport this evening as I need to be ready for the coming working week. But a couple of quick thoughts for now:

- The key is to contribute to OPF. That may include images, critique, technical information etc. We are not here just to pat each other on the back, but to help each other develop our own photography. That works on many levels and requires consideration of other people's point of view and experience.

- We are not a chat forum. We do chat because we have built some empathy as a result of sharing our work and ideas - that is good and natural, but the chat is based on at least some level of relationship we have built and not just because we're in the same room.

- By sharing and discussing our work and ideas we learn where each of us is coming from. I have read Rachel's, Asher's, Bart's, Cem's, Fahim's, Nic's, Ken's etc comments many times. I know something of their approach and their style and how that influences their critique - but they are all still capable or surprising me so I need to keep an open mind.

- Sharing work, as with other ideas, makes us vulnerable. Work particularly, because we are putting up something that reflects us and then opening it/ourselves up for critique. I firmly agree that anything I post can be commented upon freely, and have no issue with people reworking to share their ideas. Even if I don't follow the suggested path I still learn, and one of my favourite pictures directly resulted from challenge from Asher around a whimsy I posted.

- We do all of this civilly. We remember the person who made themselves vulnerable and we care for them. We do not seek to pull people or their work down. We may ask for an explanation, but that is to allow us to consider whether the work succeeds before a wider audience. Ken is often direct, but he spends time thinking about work before commenting and his comments are perceptive and valuable.

- For all of this to work, we each need to earn our place. This isn't based on experience or merit, but is based on having the honesty and vulnerability to risk placing our work etc in front of others knowing that will impact on how our contributions are weighed. We are not 'internet experts' who have plenty of opinion and nothing to back it up that's too easy and cost free, but it profits nothing. But, we gather in Asher's home at his invitation to share our ideas and discuss photographic topics - a forum if you will. We have some very distinguished artists here - where else would Alain pop in to pay his dues, and there are many others some already mentioned - who take the time to help others less far along that path.

So to be a part of all that anyone needs to be open, willing to make themselves vulnerable and willing to contribute. Not just their views that leave them the ditant expert, but their own work, thoughts and ideas. That requires some humility, but then we can get to know them and they us and we are an open photography forum that retains its unique character. As Ken said earlier, there aren't many serious photographic places on the internet where you can admit shooting jpeg and not be ridiculed or ex-communicated.

Finally, it does work. I am not a founding member, but i have been made welcome, encouraged and have learnt more by sharing work here than in any other place. So, Erik, share some work, chill out and let us all get to know you and your work, and you get to know us. Then you will be welcome and we will know where you are coming from and vice versa.

Sorry that was longer than I intended and probably rambles a bit, but OPF is unique in my experience and that is worth holding on to.

Mike


PS Ken's headshot. Still great.

PPS Ken's point about non-photographers is a good one. But, OPF needs everyone to contribute and for that to really be valuable they need to be known in some way. Say John Szarkowski joined and offered critique on images (please just imagine...), unless we knew something of his background w would not know what to do with it:

'Say Debbie, John S thinks my works great and that I should exhibit'

'Really dear, whose John?'

'Oh this guy on the internet. He seems pretty clued up. has all the right words.'

'You be careful dear. You know how dangerous the internet is. I've read about it in the paper.'

'Yes dear, your right. I'd better just stick with my boring humdrum and underpaid job.'
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old October 18th, 2009, 02:08 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 33,943
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
Then I am afraid I did not understand your original message. I thought you wrote that you'd be surprised if Bart or Ken would post some pics. Obviously not, so please ignore my previous message.
On the contrary, my Dear Cem,

It's worth emphasizing their generous sharing of their fine images!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
...(Of course, we want Maris to post his fine photography and would be startled if either Bart or Ken stopped!)
You even made bold by comment! I'd be startled, ie concerned, frightened, disappointed and worried, if they stopped doing the wonderful and appreciated image posting that Maris has as yet to match! A small sample of his work can be seen here.

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Members w/ Zero Posts post Martin Kuivenhoven Architectural - Industrial 14 September 13th, 2007 01:20 PM
Flooded landscape! Post your images! Asher Kelman Landscape - Travel 9 July 27th, 2007 10:55 AM
Approaching posted images! Edit or not someone else's work! Asher Kelman Layback Cafe 20 February 25th, 2007 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Posting images or text grants license to OPF, yet © of such remain with its creator. Still, all assembled discussion © 2006-2017 Asher Kelman (all rights reserved) Posts with new theme or unusual image might be moved/copied to a new thread!