Evaluating feedback

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

Some of my photos have a very wide range of response, going from "ugh!" to "wonderful." How do you process such a disparity of reaction?

To be quite honest, I go with what I like. I carefully examine each comment/evaluation, but sometimes I just think they're wrong. When there is such variance in response, though, it's difficult to know if the criticisms have any validity. If there is any validity, I surely want to learn from it.

An example is this photo. I like it. Some others have as well, but at the same time it's gotten "ugh" responses. Unfortunately, this is on a board where people can leave ratings without comment. Does one just ignore the bad numbers? Keep looking for what is "wrong?"

Edward Bussa · Nov 18, 2007

Rachel,

Responses are like feelings, by definition they are valid ... for the person having them!

Sometimes it says more about the person having the reaction than about your work.
As for the ratings on the board - you are presenting to an audience that probably has very particular visions of what a photograph should and shouldn't be, so I would anticipate more negative responses than positive, unless the picture transcends style.

The picture you posted is very graphic. The tonality is well done. The hand is slightly blurred and there is a lot of black. However, overall, I find it pleasing and interesting. I like the line of the keyboard coming into the picture from the border. I think all the black makes the line more graphic but I do wonder why the rest is so black.

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

You see, this is exactly what I need to learn: How to spot the inconsistencies, the things that distract. It's black because I hit the contrast selectively. The piano is a baby grand with a high gloss and I found the reflections not pleasing.

This is the original:

I know what I like, I know (sort of) what I'm trying to achieve. It's the details I'm still learning. I spend a lot of time manipulating images to try to sort out those details, but being so new I sometimes benefit greatly from an outside eye.

The question is...well, maybe it's a different question. Is this something I must do on a solitary journey? And are those numerical ratings helpful? Am I once again putting cart before horse and trying to skip the baby steps?

Maybe so. Or maybe not? I wonder how the very talented, accomplished photographers on this board managed the early stages? Did you all come fully formed as photographers as Diana from the head of Zeus? (It was Diana...or was it. Hmmm again.)

Edward Bussa · Nov 18, 2007

FWIW, I like the reflections, but I'm not surprised you don't, nor would I be surprised if other's don't...

You shouldn't let your greatness be limited to another's. Nor should you let your ego limit it either... no easy answer. Live and learn and live, repeat?

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 18, 2007

I think those numerical ratings are dreadful and destroy any otherwise productive thought process. Best to ignore them, in my opinion.

I thought the quality of discussion on photo.net really headed downhill when they added ratings. I used to be active on usefilm.com, which began as an assignment-oriented photo discussion site with a good community feeling like this site. As it grew, the site owner added a rating system, but tried to build in controls against rating abuse, but it was just more ratings and it attracted people who prefer rating systems to thought, and eventually that community feeling disappeared.

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

The problem is that the only place rank amateurs can post often is on a board with other rank amateurs.

I'm wondering if I should just look at the work of those are already accomplished and fumble my way toward learning privately without asking for feedback. I have learned a lot on PN, though, as well as here.

Tis a conundrum.

Edward Bussa · Nov 18, 2007

I like voting on the Pentax Photo Gallery, and its just a thumbs up, thumbs down. However, I wish I had a way of providing my thoughtful feedback as well. What do you think is behind the "ratings abuse"?

I know I've gotten frustrated with the process of posting for feedback and have tried to figure out how to get the feedback I desire and the conversations with myself usually go something like this:

Why don't I get any feedback? Is it because people find no fault or is it obvious the image falls short? Hmm... makes me think...

Do most people not like this picture? Hmm... that's a reaction at least... maybe I'm on to something?

Most people like this picture, yet I don't find it very special.... thats nice, but... something to think about...

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 18, 2007

Edward Bussa said:
I like voting on the Pentax Photo Gallery, and its just a thumbs up, thumbs down. However, I wish I had a way of providing my thoughtful feedback as well. What do you think is behind the "ratings abuse"?

Some people seem to like the competition more than they like making photographs. For some it's a means of publicizing their own work, so they post hundreds of photos on the site, give high ratings to people who will return the favor, and stay on top of the pile so no one else can get any meaningful response.

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

So, along with my perfect world list I should add board where newbies can get meaningful feedback with neither sugar coating nor other nonsense. Wonder if that goes above or below hot fudge sundaes that are a diet aid.

The kind of thing I'm longing for is, obviously, a photography school. However, many of us aren't able to take classes, so it's got to be self-directed study.

Thank you, this has been a helpful discussion. I think I need to limit who sees what I produce and go seeking occasional feedback from people whom I respect and know their business. Either that or take a class somewhere!

Does anyone know of online classes that are reasonable and reputable?

Diane Fields · Nov 18, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
Some people seem to like the competition more than they like making photographs.
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QUOTE]

That's the reason why I don't get involved in our local camera club. I spent years jurying for high end art/craft shows with tons of competition and I just shy away from anything that has to do with competitiveness now. There was a reason I subjected myself to that---but I don't need to do that now. The club here has competitions every meeting--basically its what the club turns on for the most part. I may be missing other things, but just don't want to deal with a print, slide competition with voting every meeting.

I do visit photo.net often--but don't ask for critiques and don't offer a rating on others.

Diane

Diane

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

I've rated only four photos there, ones I thought were particularly good. But I've commented on many. Hopefully as I learn I'll be able to offer more substantive critiques. In the meantime I'm learning a lot from reading the critiques of some people there who are especially knowledgeable and artistic.

I suppose there comes a time when every would-be artist and/or photographer has to start trusting her/his own judgment.

Gulp. That might be now for me.

Ray West · Nov 18, 2007

Hi Rachel,

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.....

But what to do if you do want to get some answers? Well, you have to ask the right question. Is there a question for your piano image posted here? Ask more specific questions, direct them at the people you want the answers from. Why do you 'like the photo'. Why is it different to others, or the same that you or others may or may not have made? Is the hand too fat, does it need more cropping, too dark, better with key pressed, would I be better getting a real pianist, how about the awkward finger shadows, sheet music - what are you trying to say with the image, what questions do you need answers to?

If you were to say something like 'I was trying to show the tension in the pianist's hand, before starting to play.... whatever, do you think I caught it', may work better than 'I like this, what do you think?', or even that is better than no statement at all. (although there can be reasons for that approach). I think you need to be more specific in your questioning. Before you ask, decide what it is you want advice/opinion on. Look at your picture, analyse it. Look at other pictures, analyse them. It doesn't matter how technically good you are at post processing, what quality camera you have, if you can't see, if you haven't 'the eye', you will never even get beyond average. You are not doing 'product photography'.

Anonymous voting, by folk who do not use their real names - value = none whatsoever, but it may be fun ;-) What exactly are they voting on? I like this picture?

Best wishes,

Ray

Rachel Foster · Nov 18, 2007

Asking the right question is an excellent point.

I posted the piano pic more to illustrate the sort of thing I was talking about, rather than asking for critique on it. I now am most hesitant to offer photos for criticism here (other the occasional "am I learning anything" photo) because I'm just not in the league of the folk here. Asking if I'm showing progress is the most I feel able to do with this calibre of photographer. But I'll bet anything if I hadn't posted an example an early question would have been "Well, what sort of thing are you getting feedback on?"

My question is not on the piano photo; it really is aimed at trying to understand how much stock to put in various sources of input. I do and will continue to consider every piece of advice/criticism I get. But I have to be able to pick out the nuggets of gold. Prioritizing my learning is a big issue for me right now. What do I learn now? What aspect do I focus on this very minute and then when I have that, what next?

I'm sorry if I was unclear on the point of my post. These things are so inextricably intertwined, though, it's hard to know where the general question leaves off and the specific kicks in.

Right now, I'm learning to bait the hook so I can catch my own fish.

And as I reread and digest your response, that's what you addressed. So....edited to point out this was a superfluous response. Sigh.

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

Having thought about Ray's point, be more specific in questions asked, I realized that the photographer has to have a certain amount of confidence in the piece before s/he can do that. One of the biggest hurdles for a beginning (this one anyway) photographer to overcome is being able to say "this is good, but it can be better; how?" It's far easier to say "What do you think?" because it doesn't presuppose the piece is good to start with.

I'm learning a LOT about the psychology of learning a new skill if nothing else!

Ray West · Nov 19, 2007

Hi Rachel,

"this is good, but it can be better; how?" It's far easier to say "What do you think?"

Labouring my point, but the above examples are both vague. In the first example - what is good? all of it, some of it? can you define the goodness in more detail? Do you want the good bits to be better, or just the bad bits to be better? You may have to be introspective, find the good bits, and why they are good for you - bait your hook, with a small worm, well attached, not a great lump of bread that just dissolves in the fast flowing stream. Match the bait to the fish - good analogy you chose earlier.

By you saying 'this is good', you are assigning your standards to me. I may think it is rubbish, but won't tell you, being too polite, so I'll say nowt. Might as well say 'wow, good shot'.

I can't speak for others, but if I see someone trying to help themselves (don't mean shop lifting ;-) I will try to help them. If they can't be bothered to study the image they have posted, then why should I? If you don't know where to begin, then begin somewhere. Divide your image into 9 squares, say, examine what you see in each square. You have to learn to see. Stand back a few feet, half close your eyes, squint at it, is there an underlying composition you can see, maybe a line that distracts? It depends on what you are trying to do, but it may not be easy. Go through any magazine, look in detail at the photos, the adverts, the page layout. Anything you would change? why?

The objective is not to be as good as anyone else, but to be better than most. If you know (sort of) what you are trying to achieve, then you need to be able to describe that, show examples of, to see if anybody can help you in that direction. But even just sort of knowing what you like is a very good beginning, and if you can get no help, then you'd better try it on your own.

Best wishes,

Ray

Asher Kelman · Nov 19, 2007

David A. Goldfarb said:
I think those numerical ratings are dreadful and destroy any otherwise productive thought process. Best to ignore them, in my opinion.

I thought the quality of discussion on photo.net really headed downhill when they added ratings. I used to be active on usefilm.com, which began as an assignment-oriented photo discussion site with a good community feeling like this site. As it grew, the site owner added a rating system, but tried to build in controls against rating abuse, but it was just more ratings and it attracted people who prefer rating systems to thought, and eventually that community feeling disappeared.

Hi David,

I am good at learning from other peoples bruises and am not keen to have to make every mistake myself just to get the feel of things. In any case I take consensus and get feedback from a number of people and especially Nicolas Claris who was instrumental in starting OPF. We try to get a good sense of things and not harm the community.

I need to have time to read everything above your post. We are appreciative of feedback. A rating system, if we used one would factor the quality of work and decision making of the OPFer adding a rating. So a newbie with little work to show might for example have just a small fraction of the weighting of someone whose judgment, skill, experience and openness merited higher value. However, this is not going to happen any time soon as we do not have any handle on this and we just want to use a nurturing attitude, (and my back channel of communication to people who post odd stuff that perplexes and is supposed to be art)! Nicolas and I trust the community to be self-regulating and responsible. We set a good example and others have made this the ethos of this place.

At the moment we just need people to post their best photographs and for us to respond honestly as to our feelings and thoughts induced by the picture. Nothing more is needed unless one has confidence to deal with composition, colors, reference to other work and so forth.

So don't worry that we are going to change substantially from that. When we have a workable idea, we'll put it out. Right now, it's not on the immediate horizon!

Asher

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 19, 2007

I'm glad to hear there are no immediate plans for a rating system here.

The usefilm.com system tried using a combination of ratings, one for the photograph and "karma" rating, so that if you were a rating abuser, you would get low karma points, and your photo ratings would count less, and if you were a good citizen who wrote longer comments and participated in the discussion forums as well as the galleries, your karma rating went up. It was a very clever approach, and the site owner was well-intentioned, but it seemed that no matter how much he tweaked the ratings algorithm, the site never quite recovered.

Critique is a difficult thing, and it isn't easy to make it work online, even when there are no rating systems and everyone has to provide a narrative response. Any kind of rating system is bound to be a simplification and a distraction from the task at hand.

Bev Sampson · Nov 19, 2007

My feelings on ratings, critiques, and experienced photographers comments are mixed. Aside from the art of photography, I always appreciate comments on obvious technical errors. Having said that, my style is what I am comfortable with. Someone else's style may not please me. For example, I do not like B&W. I do not like dark sinister portraits. I do like bright colorful photos and most of the time I like them sharp. I do not like artsy soft images (exceptions sometimes).

Perhaps then, comments by members of this forum may be suitable or acceptable to the person commenting but not to the liking of the person who made the photograph, again technical errors aside. Each photographer needs to learn the basics of photography, determine his/her own personal sytle and move on. Learning exposure, focus, natural and artificial lighting, setups, diffusion of light to avoid shadows, personal composition techniques, even to point of looking at what you see in your camera viewfinder to determine if your final intended crop is achievable. That is why the question is so often asked in this forum, what were you trying to accomplish with this photo. Isn't a final image subjective to each individual photographer. Just my opinion.

Bev

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

Bev's points are well taken. Learning the technical aspects is one area where critique can be so very valuable: One must know where one is lacking before one knows what to work on. If one is trying to learn photography without taking a course, that kind of input is critical.

I've in fact been considering taking a course more and more, but I worry that instructors may try to force the student into an accepted, conforming style. Knowing what I know about our educational system, that is a real possibility. However, there is so very much to the technical aspects that such a course could possibly save years of time in development.

Any opinions on taking courses?

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

Just a note: I have looked at the Briot seminars, and someday. . . .

Colleen Vermillion · Nov 19, 2007

Rachel Foster said:
You see, this is exactly what I need to learn: How to spot the inconsistencies, the things that distract. It's black because I hit the contrast selectively. The piano is a baby grand with a high gloss and I found the reflections not pleasing.

This is the original:
(snip)

I find that when you're looking for constructive comment in the digital world it helps to ask about the variations, or show a before and after like you did here. As Ray mentioned, you have to ask the right question. It's very hard to take one image and rate it on an absolute scale, and even harder to interpret the results from folks that are rating your image based on all their personal experiences and biases. Art is a form of communication... some of it "speaks our language" and we like it, and some of it is unintelligible gibberish and we don't understand it. The answer to "Do you like this piece of art" tells you more about the person than the art.

If you ask "Do you like this variation better than the original?" then everyone is comparing the same thing. They may not really care for the image as a whole, but they can tell you which version they like better and why. The most interesting image post processing discussions I've seen have resulted from either comparing variations or from the photographer asking for very specific help, for example, "I really like (something about the photo here) but I can't seem to (something you're trying to accomplish here). In general I would ignore numerical ratings and look at the substantial comments. If someone liked (or disliked) your image enough to try to articulate exactly why they liked/hated it, then that's valuable feedback. A simple "ugh" could mean anything. Maybe something terrible involving a piano happened to them they shudder every time they see one.

-Colleen

Asher Kelman · Nov 19, 2007

Improving Value of Photography

Anyone who wants to get a grip on this subject reread everything Ray and Colleen have written above.

In any endeaver, if there is no target, no destination no goal how can anyone of us get there?

Rule One for everyone in OPF: Be open to all forms of art and all purposes in and for photography. That way we all can grow!

The 4 "P's for posting":

1. Purpose in making the picture: The Precipitent drive and context of taking the picture, any special ideas and approach. News, Wedding, for Vogue, Greeting card for Catholic Charity or glamor magazine? Fun family memories, technical for evidence or engineering, stock sales, personal portfolio or art?

2. Particulars: Significant details, " used a soft focus lens in order to blur the details of the characters waiting for the train, I just want the movement and feelings, not particulars.

3. My Passion in the image: What it means by you, what seems to satisfy you and not and what's its value to you?

4. Purpose in posting: What is it you want? Share fun? Technical guide? Choice of versions? How to print? How do you react to this? Does it fit my stated purpose?

Responders: Relate replies to photographer's reasons for posting as well as your own, but know and separate the differences. Don't be closed-minded! Grow in the process or you'll gain nothing. The idea of doing this interactive work is to broaden your own perspective on photography and art and to help out in the process more or less for each. Don't dismiss work as "artsy" or anal this is perjorative! Instead, try to be be open to new experience!

Don't be shy. Your feelings and thoughts are valid if you are honest. Ideas on art significance require taking risks or else the feedback is shortchanged.

When you look at replies, conserve your own goals and therefore relate answers in your mind to your own stated needs. Get to rate or discount opinions based on experience with different responders. Be gracious and acknowledge all replies.

Asher

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

The responses to my two most recent threads (this and monitor calibration) have been enormously helpful and I want to thank everyone who responded.

The learning process is dialectical but not in an adversarial way; if done right, it's an exchange between people with a common goal. In this case, the goal is to advance someone's skills and ability to produce photos that have some value.

The members of OPF have shown a willingness to help along the ignorant (read "Rachel" here) and have shown amazing generosity with their time and expertise. One thing that has struck me, though, is that the neophyte and the skilled speak different languages, have different understandings, and sometimes just don't connect, neither one understanding what the other is saying/trying to do. I've been considering writing an essay on how the neophyte (or this neophyte) experiences this process. If anyone would be interested in reading that, please let me know and I will be happy to share it with you.

It won't be done immediately, but hopefully soon. I would like to repay the kindness shown here in some small way, and perhaps this is the one area wherein I can contribute.

Again, thank you all.

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

Let me know if I have the posting right?

The purpose and my passion combined: The purpose for this photo was to create something that pleases me, that I find lovely, that makes me "feel good." Ok, maybe my purposes are not grand, but that's why I shoot. I want to find new ways of seeing everyday objects. A deeper, more "psychological" motive might be a desire to see the world around me in fresh new ways, keeping alive a joie de vivre and counteracting the dullness that sameness can bring.

I shot this in a dark room and used a flashlight below to render an effect not usually seen. The focal length was 1/50, Aperture Value: 325770/65536 (that part c&p from exig data), iso 400, white balance corrected for tungsten lighting, on tripod and with remote shutter release.

Passion part II: I like it. I find it pleasing. However, I realize most will not because people dont' seem to like dark flowers.

Purpose: I would like to find out what I'm missing, what detracts from the photo that I've not noticed, any suggestions to improve the impact and presentation. I also am interested in frank, uncensored responses (ugh is fine for this part).

Ok, here's the image:

Asher Kelman · Nov 19, 2007

Good response Rachel!

However, my words were not particularly directed to you but really to everyone, including yours truly

Asher

Rachel Foster · Nov 19, 2007

The above photo post was not for the purpose of asking for critique (I don't want to derail the thread). It's to see if I understand what is wanted in presentation of a request.

Evaluating feedback

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