The Ethics and Morality of "Becoming" a Wedding Photographer

I have a request to make, as a weekend warrior myself...

Those of you high and mighty wedding professionals that believe that to truly make it in this business you have to shoot multiple weddings alongside real "pros" like yourselves, just answer me this...

In all your many weddings that you are constantly shooting, how often do you take an aspiring learner along with you, so that they may benefit from your experience and become one of the greats, such as yourself?

My point is, in the case of the sushi apprenticeship mentioned previously, there seems to be an expected path that one can get on. Let's compare it to medical school training in the US. If you want to be a doctor, there's a presecribed (pardon the pun) track you get on: 3 years medical school, then a residency for 3 or 4 more years, etc. There is no such track or program for photographers. Why don't some of you pro's help out some of us aspiring to be as great as you and set up a mentoring program of some kind? Establish a track that may become the norm, so that the integrity of the art may be maintained.

I may not be phrasing this quite how I like so that my point comes across, so I reserve the right to edit and explain my position when folks reply. Thanks.

Zach Jacob said:

I have a request to make, as a weekend warrior myself...

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In all your many weddings that you are constantly shooting, how often do you take an aspiring learner along with you, so that they may benefit from your experience and become one of the greats, such as yourself?

My point is, in the case of the sushi apprenticeship mentioned previously, there seems to be an expected path that one can get on. Let's compare it to medical school training in the US. If you want to be a doctor, there's a presecribed (pardon the pun) track you get on: 3 years medical school, then a residency for 3 or 4 more years, etc. There is no such track or program for photographers. Why don't some of you pro's help out some of us aspiring to be as great as you and set up a mentoring program of some kind? Establish a track that may become the norm, so that the integrity of the art may be maintained.
{snipped}.

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Zach, the answer is simple...

I take them along about as often as I get asked Not always, and I won't put people I don't think are suitable in front of clients, but that's my call.

Now, the better question is "how often do weekend warriors ask to come along with pros? And will they come to the engagement shoot, or to a rehearsal dinner, too? Will they hoist a reflector or two before the wedding to understand how light works?"

There are actually a ton of ways to be involved here. Some stores, like Headshots in Toronto, actually have lists of aspiring assistants.

But understand you guys are competing with people who take their training seriously enough to do the work at college or university, which I just mentioned. You should be willing to do that work too--I don't want to have to explain to an assistant what an fstop is or how to set up a softbox (and if you haven't done that before, you really should try it sometime).

So there are established paths--many of them--I mentioned a ton of professional organizations too. But there's no established path for weekend warriors because, frankly, it takes longer than weekends to learn this stuff. As I said before, it's a lot less arduous than it used to be, but it's still years of training, IMO.

Are you ready to put that time in? Or do you just want to compete with the ever-increasing numbers of low-end shooters?

BTW--you need some talent too, not just enthusiasm and sacrifice. Without training and judgement (school, competition etc...) how do you know you've got it?

Not everything is good. That's just a fact, and not an opinion. I know that's counter to pop-culture these days, where "it's all good"--but actually, it isn't

Jamie,

James Roberts said:

Zach, the answer is simple...

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It looks like we've done the full - vicious - circle.

There is no - easily accessible - training program, yet even to get a chance to go for a shoot with a pro, a novice will be required to "know everything there is to know".

I wonder how can a person learn how to mount a softbox on his/her own, if the only way to get his/her hands on it is to buy it, and I don't need to tell you that this stuff is *expensive*.

So it's the hard way or highway?

For the record: I know what an f/stop is and I have few lights of my own. Cost me pretty penny, too.
But, funny, you know who talked me into getting good lights even BEFORE I got a decent camera? Shay.. Thus far everything he advised me on turned out to be the solid truth, and I'm soooo happy I followed his advice. Thus you can understand why I'm so happy he finaly decided to do this workshop...

Cheers!

Nik, yes it's the hard way or the highway. Great photography is not easy. I'm sorry for people who think that it is.

But that doesn't mean there isn't easy access to learning! As I said, most weekend warriors don't know what they don't know; it never occurs to them to ask a pro--let alone pay for their time.

So you've actually completely mis-read my post.

I never said you shouldn't go to a workshop. I take it you're talking about Shay Stephens? I don't know him, but I use his PS actions. I like his work. I'm glad he got you to buy some lights. Though if you can't "see the light" they're not going to do you very much good.

But please don't pretend I said you need to know everything to work with a pro! I said you need to know something.

You don't need to buy stuff to see how it works; rent it. Take a course. That's reasonably cheap.

But, please, knowing the mechanics of photography is basic, not advanced. You can read it for free from any number of books, or from the Web (though we all know everything on the Internet is true )

So all I've really said is that if you want a pro's time--for free, essentially--then come prepared to work. That's the only option open. I'm not giving away more than I do on the 'net (which has been a fair bit, actually). And just to be clear, the only people I won't put in front of my clients are ones with personality issues or that don't want to work.

How is that going full circle?

And yeah--go to the workshop--that's a good start. Just don't pretend you're a pro when you come out.

Jamie,

Back to the beginning of this discussion.

Nikolai was originally hit with what he could perceive as a barrage of ridicule for saying he was going to this course!

In fact I know his work and he's one of the most avidly knowledge and skill-acquiring "weekend warriors" I know. He tries to hone his lighting skills, shoots a lot and puts his work out for feedback. He's honest in growing and trying to meet high standards.

I don't know Shay, but I have no reason not to believe the course will provide a good ground in business and lighting techniques and more on the huge enterprise involved in a wedding.

Your comments and advice are more open and not at all hostile. So that's why Nikolai feels we have come full circle.

I happen to be a very harsh critic of the naive (or worse) "Weekend Warrior" photographers who take on the responsibility for weddings when there are competent guys ready, waiting and at competitive prices.

That being said, who am I to be the judge?

After all, if phortographers like Nikolai and Kathy, (who already know all the basics), take the course and take this seriously and will work towards mastery, that can only be good. They will manage to rise above the standard of the weekend 10D shooters and progress to making it. I'd really respect that they also take as many assistant jobs as they can get.

Yes, it would be great if there were "certified" and monitored paths to reaching the standards one would like to see. However, that doesn't exist in the USA, at least.

I'm not sure how it is in the rest of the world.

Some really fine photographers, of course were self-trained, so it's therefore possible.

This discussion, on the ethics of undertaking a Wedding Photography asssignment without series of mentoring is, I believe, important.

For most creative work, I say "Don't think!, try!" however for a bride's memories I'd add, "Except weddings!"

Asher

My two cents worth:

I have taken several lighting classes - and probably practice and study that subject for 10-20 hours every week after working 50+_ hours in my other business. Just because I hae not studied it in a college setting doesn't mean that the study is not legitimate and useable!

Renting is a waste of money! (I am an accountant by trade and formal education). I've invested in hot lights, Profoto strobes, softboxes of all sizes, modifiers of many kinds. This has nothing to do with my camera gear.

Very few of the local pro's will take on an intern. Particularly one who is female, 51 years old with an established head for business. Why? I guess there is some fear that I will know their inside secrets. One of my clients is a well known ad/fashion photographer. He is the only one of that caliber who has said anytime I want to go and sit on his sets to study lighting, he's happy to have me there. My friend is is VP/Ad Director for a major cosmetics company has offered the same - come sit on our sets anytime you want and we are shooting, which is monthly at least.

But the wedding photographers? - nope! I belong to PPA and WPPI and I have taken many of their classes and workshops, among others, So to study that and the other subjects, I am willing to take on additional accounting work, which will pay for me to do Wedding and other Event Photography.

This weekend, I volunteered for an animal rescue group as a photographer. Did some journalistic style photography at their event in some very harsh light. 23 Animals found new homes. The subjects are difficult - they don't sit still and pose. They are usually untrained. My keeper rate was about 60%. No, it's wasn't a wedding. Lot's of Black and White in the same photo (Many dogs have fur in those color schemes). Lots of skin tone from the volunteers. Noontime sun. Canopies and shade. I don't see that this is much different, except it's disposable if I miss the shots. Blue jeans and chinos aren't lace and silk - but, hey that is no bearing on shooting people in the sun having fun at an event out doors on grass and under canopies - just like a wedding!

If that is where my portfolio goes, and if I have to do some portrait and other types of photography work while I perfect the wedding work, there is no reason not to take a workshop to help progress, build skills and a portfolio.

Kathy--

With respect, renting is not a waste of money if you can't afford to buy. I agree it's better to have a friendly photo store manager who will let you try stuff out, but that's not always the case.

Case in point: you can rent a full-blown studio in Toronto (as long as you have business insurance) from $400 per day of shooting. That includes lighting, backdrops and everything else you might need aside from your camera and tripods. They have an assistant's list and everything!

That's value. Vistek in Toronto will let you try out new gear for a nominal (to any business) fee. That's value too.

You want a day with some models and a couple of softboxes, and even your own assistant? Less than $1500. That's less than a lot of seminars, and I guarantee you'll learn lots, too.

But I'm belabouring the point. You should understand why a lot of pros don't take you seriously, even if your friends in other industries don't mind your interest.

First, on a commercial shoot, you can hang around and not get in the way. That's fine. No-one will lose anything by you doing that, because the barrier to your entering that business, is, well, investment and the actual business, not business-savvy.

On a wedding, what do you offer a pro, who may be an independent? Really--from an accounting perspective, why should I just let someone come along who isn't prepared to work?

Finally, I'm glad you practice many hours a week on lighting. You're right, taking a lighting course or going to university isn't the only way to get experience.

But it's still the only way to get credentials And, less cynically, you can learn a lot more in those places sometimes because the exchange of value is all about education.

Oh--and sometimes even the best-intentioned pros are lousy teachers At least a college, you have some recourse there (and lousy teachers get a reputation, too).

Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage you. But be aware that, in general, shooting animals is still a lot easier (for all kinds of reasons) than people on one of their most important days.

But good luck! All I'd say is keep taking the WPPI courses (which I mentioned) and do the hard work, and eventually you will get to a point you want. That's still not to say you should practice out of hand on some poor bride

Marketing and lack of ego

I think that even with skills developed by the manner that I gain them and not necessarily from a college education in photgraphy, the one skill that I have to offer(besides perserverence) are people skills.

A bride may or may not care whether or not I have a degree in photography. If she likes the work I have done that she sees, I have been honest with her on how I have learned these skills, and I have the ability to make her feel comfortable then I will already have a leg up on those with a huge ego and a large price tag. Personality plays a big part in photography. It's all part of the style game which will make the subjects comfortable. An a relaxed bride is definitely a great subject.

One of the things I think why there is this whole "if one buys a flute - s/he owns a flute, if one buys a camera - s/he's a photographer" ordeal, is that it is actually possible for a relatively inexperienced person to come out with a really nice picture, if only once in a while. Which makes it a precedent.

At the same time, it does not seem possible for a relatively inexperienced person to come out with a "nice" brain surgery, "nice" operating system, or a "nice" performance of Sonata in A major BWV1032. It just can't happen.

Of course, in most cases it simply means a lucky shot. And the difference between the real pro and the n00b is the fact that the former can deliver those nice shots day in and day out, while for the latter it would be hit or miss every time, more on the miss side.

And yes, experimenting with people's Big Day can lead to a lot of disappointment. So, returning to the primary question of the thread, the ethic should lie in a full disclosure.

James Roberts said:

On a wedding, what do you offer a pro, who may be an independent? Really--from an accounting perspective, why should I just let someone come along who isn't prepared to work?

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James,

I'd welcome the chance to work for another photographer. I actually have offered my services and my gear (I have bought nothing less than the best for the application) - I paid to learn to set up softboxes and the like. As I stated, people don't take 51 year old women as serious when they offer to set up lighting, hold reflectors and carry gear. So those of us who want to do things the traditional way have to think outside the box. Fortunately for me, I don't have to worry about the costs because I have another way to support my lifestyle and my passion to get where I want to be.

at the end of the day everyone here has an interest in photography at whatever level they are at. Some of us make their living out of it, others would like to & others just love it for what it is & the dollars are not an issue.
A forum such as this is ideally a place where people of like mind can get together to learn & share information. It is an art, as Nikolai said. There really is no room for antagonism or judgement of any kind.
Personally, I am just trying to get along & do the best I can with the limited talent I have. I retract & statements I have made that may have seemed inflammatory.

Cheers,


Paul

I think James hit the nail on the head here in his reply to Kathy. The emphasis is mine.

First, on a commercial shoot, you can hang around and not get in the way. That's fine. No-one will lose anything by you doing that, because the barrier to your entering that business, is, well, investment and the actual business, not business-savvy.On a wedding, what do you offer a pro, who may be an independent? Really--from an accounting perspective, why should I just let someone come along who isn't prepared to work?

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Who decides whom to take on as apprentices, how many apprentices to take on or how long the apprenticeships are strung out for? The pros. Is it any wonder that pros are hostile to training such as workshops that bypass the apprenticeship process partially or wholly? Offering an apprenticeship only benefits the pro in one way -- getting cheap labor. Otherwise he is training someone who may one day take bread out of his mouth. So they may take one look at Kathy and decide that she's not young and naive enough to get "their money's worth" out of her in terms of gruntwork. No apprenticeship for her.


I agree with Nick, lets return to the basics of the thread -- the morality of "becoming" a wedding photographer. Asher points out correctly that since a wedding is a (hopefully) once in a lifetime moment, more is at stake than compared to a portrait sitting. However, we also have to remember...whose wedding is it anyways? The bride and the groom's. It they decide that Kathy's style is the best fit for them, and Kathy have not mislead them about her experiences in the field, then nobody is acting immorally. I would further argue, though this point may be more controversial, even to aspiring wedding photographers like Kathy, who thinks that it is very important to preserve the 'going price' in wedding photography, that the 'weekend warrier' photographer who charges a cheaper price for wedding pictures is not necessarily acting immorally.


Does he show the couple a portfolio that is all his own work? Is he frank about his level of experience (low)? Does he charge a price that is fair to the couple (lower than photographers with more experience) and fair to his competition (at least covering his costs)? As long as he does all that I believe the B&G have the right to choose. Doubtless the pros will look distainfully upon such an arrangement. But that does not make it immoral.

at the end of the day everyone here has an interest in photography at whatever level they are at. Some of us make their living out of it, others would like to & others just love it for what it is & the dollars are not an issue.
A forum such as this is ideally a place where people of like mind can get together to learn & share information.

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Paul,
Thanks for the reconciliatory statement. I feel like at the end of the day we are incredibly fortunate to have this community where newbies can mingle with pros. It's a testaments to the confidence and generosity of the professionals on this board that they are so willing to help out those new to the field become better photographers!

Nikolai Sklobovsky said:

One of the things I think why there is this whole "if one buys a flute - s/he owns a flute, if one buys a camera - s/he's a photographer" ordeal, is that it is actually possible for a relatively inexperienced person to come out with a really nice picture, if only once in a while. Which makes it a precedent............

And yes, experimenting with people's Big Day can lead to a lot of disappointment. So, returning to the primary question of the thread, the ethic should lie in a full disclosure.

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Nikolai, I like that apperoach better.

So what both Kathy and you are saying is that one needs discosure. This, to me is the minimum ethical approach. However, when you are charming too, the latter will outway the ethical step.

Still I have great respect for you both, even more affection. I'm personally thrilled that both of you are going to Shay's seminar and want you to excel.

Asher

{snipped}Who decides whom to take on as apprentices, how many apprentices to take on or how long the apprenticeships are strung out for? The pros. Is it any wonder that pros are hostile to training such as workshops that bypass the apprenticeship process partially or wholly? Offering an apprenticeship only benefits the pro in one way -- getting cheap labor. Otherwise he is training someone who may one day take bread out of his mouth. So they may take one look at Kathy and decide that she's not young and naive enough to get "their money's worth" out of her in terms of gruntwork. No apprenticeship for her.
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Angelica, I still think people are perhaps still misunderstanding a bit. Most pros I know don't resent any courses or workshops. Usually, they're the ones both running them and taking them. Who on earth do you guys think runs WPPI, for example? Working pros, that's who!

And most pros I know don't take on an assistant for "cheap labour!" In point of fact, most assistants are paid, and very good ones are paid very well.

Now, someone who wants to volunteer, well, frankly, I don't actually need their softbox equipment or their lighting expertise, ok? I don't actually care, even, if they're better at it than I am; I'm not learning on the client's nickle, in that case. If they want to teach me later, that's fine. But that shouldn't even be in your mind.

But I do like it when I can just say "go set this up" and don't have to explain how to do it. The whole point of an assistant is to save time

So look, if someone like Kathy wants to "hang out" as an unpaid assistant, well, then, I'm still going to treat her like a paid one, if she wants to learn. But more importantly, that means representing me and my company to my client, and not just blending into the background. It's my business face out there, if you know what I mean, and it's public, not in the privacy of some studio somewhere.

Anwyay, I wish people quite well when they want to hang out their shingle. That's fine. But no-one gets to just watch... First because I don't want them in my way (a wedding, while a joyous thing, is an often stressful shoot. It's good stress, though!)--but more importantly because they're not learning by just watching, really.

Anyway, I probably mis-spoke about the reasons for the commercial shoot, but it is true that you're not likely to cause trouble to a commercial shoot if you don't show up, say. But if I'm counting on you, then you'd better be there, or it's not worth my while worrying about it.

And Kathy--I'm sorry no-one local takes you seriously. I'm not sure why that is, but it might be an age thing, and not for the reason you think. Schlepping heavy equipment around is hard; I don't mind throwing that to someone young, but our preconceptions of folks in their 50s might hinder you there (heck, I'm 47, so I know how you feel!). My back certainly ain't what it used to be!

But there's a couple more things worth mentioning here.

Kathy, most of the very big pros I know are very good with people, and are pretty ego-less. In other words, your competitive advantage in dealing with people is actually a basic requirement for anyone to succeed in this business. Unlike big commercial work, which will tolerate a fair bit of eccentricity in exchange for results, no-one hires a prima donna photographer for their wedding day (well, you know what I mean. There are some, but honestly in the top tier of photographers I haven't met them yet. Eccentric? Some, but nicely so, always. And fun, too! They're mostly wonderful and helpful people).

And Nick, hey--anyone can right one or two good lines of code, or get lucky and strum one good chord on the guitar with minimal instruction. But again, just because you have a compiler or developer's workbench (or can write script, for that matter) doesn't make you a software engineer! A few good shots does not a photographer make...

Put another way--if you're showing people your best shots all the time, instead of your usual shots, then you've got a ways to go, because you won't always acheive your best. (I'm not being stupid, but this is why you should show people full wedding albums: you show them your good, regular stuff. Not just your best shots. And get your stuff critiqued. too. Don't just go by the bride thinks she wants, either).

In other words, to be really ethical--and excuse the lousy analogy--it's a little like golf. You can't just say well, I've only played once, but I've taken lessons and the one time I was out I shot a 95!!

Well, that's as maybe, but on a different course, with different circumstances, you're as likely to shoot a 115 when you start out. See the problem? (apologies for the golf metaphor if you don't; high scores are bad. I know all too well )

It's all about consistency (like, I know that I consistently shoot over 100 as a "golfer". That's good; knowing your limitations is half the battle. Oh, and I'll never be a professional golfer! )

LOL!! And yes--we all have an interest in photography here. I hope the people starting out get some value in this!

Like Asher--I wish you all well on this journey, and you'll have to let us know how the seminar was! As I said, I use Shay Stephen's CA photoshop actions, and they do rock

James well said. It seems to me that with regard to photography. A person buys equipment , has an interest in a particular photography genre & that is it. They take a few course & suddenly they have taken on the mantle of pro photographer.
I don't get why it is that way. None of my friends who have followed various career paths have decided they love doing something, taken a few courses & then automatically become qualified to operate in that field.
Unfortunately in many cases I think the profession of photography has been devalued. It is just the nature of the beast & I believe the onus is on professional shooters to clearly differentiate themselves
from the part timers. Much of the time the clients are particularly non discerning & it is not till after the event that the results of a poor choice become evident.
Co incidentally, only an hour ago I had a woman come in to the studio who had been a bridesmaid at a wedding I shot. She bought her son in for some shots & mentioned that she loved her friends photos which I had done a few years back. & how disappointed she is with her own which were taken by the very type of photographer we have been discussing in this thread.
As far as training photographers is concerned, I have a young guy I have been taking out & he has now shot a couple of weddings for me. But that is an exception. I shot his wedding & he asked me to teach him as he was interested & in a moment of weakness I took him on. (he is a nice guy)
In a small city where there is already more competition than is healthy, why would anyone want to teach someone to start up in opposition to them ?? I would not have thought that would be considered good business ??
Regarding the course that Nikolai is attending. Well, I would say that those steps are an important part of ones photographic education. Do as many as possible. Here in Tasmania there are none. I wish I could do a few courses myself.

Cheers,

PB