Who has used the new Leica M8 and what do you think about it?

Will,

I posted a complete reply on LL but I'll copy it back here. For now, let me put it this way. The Leica M8 Digital Rangefinder takes superb pictures. It has faults which are correctable with a Phase 1C1 curve or an IR cut off filter right now, today, to be pretty good. Leica will do a proper fix for its M8 customers who they value.

Michael could have acted like New York Theater Critics, who, from one night's performance, decide to kill a show on its opening night!

When the bad review is publsihed, a million dollars and years of sweat and creativity are lost and cannot be recovered!

The decision, given the stakes, to grant Leica the time to address the IR problem was no doubt difficult, but I believe, done with good intent and therefore ethical.

I look at Leca and MR in the light of the whole. Leica makes microscopes, surgical scopes that save lives and and R9 system which is breathtaking. The M7 is a marvelous film rangefinder camera in the great tradition of Leica. MR, put his reputation on the line, because the M8 was on the line.

What he did was correct, but in a storm, people get stranded, marooned, forgotten on an island, and that happened here.

Let's not make villains out of anyone. It's just a camera not an operation!

Ashehr

leicamania

i was working in my film days with a leica R8 and a variety of r lenses, aside my leica m4p and my m7, also with 5 lenses ( sold all except the m4p with a 35+90mm ). i liked the cameras and used them mainly for detail shots aside 4x5", which was my main shooting gear,- and which has put also in perspective all the stuff about the leica glow, the leica sharpness, the coma-freeness and all that from leica-people usually beloved things. ofcourse i liked the leicas and the image quality,- but i never could avoid in thinking that with canon or nikon i would not have had similar good results,- ofcourse seaching the best lenses for that cameras also ( zeiss,- nikon mf, olympus and so on...). it amused me sometimes to read in the photo.net the leicanians and how they were speaking about their incredible leica glowing shots.- showing often totally aburring shots, taken more or less casually on the street ( as now the canonians like to do with cats ). yes.... thats the same. canon froums and how people will kill you if you start to demsonstrate that other 35mm cameras can do things in same or better quality than their 1ds2 ( so it can do the kodak slr in its iso6 mode- and i had both and no reason for any brand advantages ). or if you write your 5d is same sharp ( or better ) than their queen, the 1ds2 ( sold mine , holded the 5d ).
i am sorry that i take this things as what they are. things. yes i like good craftmanships, and so i liked that leicas, so i liked my technikardan. but i personally had problems to find any specific "glow",- how i have setup my drumscanner was by far more glowing or not glowing as if i took a nikon, canon or leica lense, sorry for beeing that ignorant ( ofcourse a good one, but leica had lemons also as the 19/2,8 or the 28-70 zoom or the leica/schneider 28PC ).
and so the M8 is not a amazing and excellent camera as i havent seen before from other cameras similar good files..... the R9 is also good, so is the canon 5d the canon 1ds2( sharpen) the newer nikons.... and especially a camera which hates everybody , the kodak slr/ n or c. the kodak has the most things common than the leicas cause it didnt used also an AA filter. already it showed more artefacts but they have been very good controllable in sw,- if you knew how to do, and that camera was made 2 years ago.
now people post images from the M8 and they are amazed how good they are, if the conditions dont show purple blacks. sorry...... but.... what a bullshit. no,- they are not good as far i have seen.
its simply totally off colorwise for the ir inluence over the whole spectrum. yes they are sharp as every camera without AAfilter and with sharp lenses, but not more. the R9 or the kodaks are as sharp as the M9. and the sinar-leaf-phase-imacon mf backs also,- just with 3 or 4 times bigger files, but with same sharpness and way better colors.
and...... 8bit dngs is a nightmare if you want to raise up fine color gradations, as you often have them in the sky or in skintones. its really very bad. 12bit is ok, not 8. another hystercic point, here about mf backs. everybody thinks how important is that they have 16bit and the canons are therefore worther cause they have just 12bit DA processing. a first all backs read out 14bit, not 16, at second 12bit is a good number for postprocessing headroom, esp. if you interpolate up to 16bit in the conversion. but not 8 bit. its bad, unprofessional and not glowing. with or without ir filters.
its a simple compression which is not lossless. similar or same way of compression is offered in the eMotion backs as option. use half of the disc space but also you loose half of the information in the highlight zones, where also are often fine sky colors. never use that mode in my eMotion, except if i run out of memory card space, which not often happend. amazing that nearly noone cares this 8bit thing, more becuase these are the same people who cannot stop to speak about that the DMR is so much better than the canon cause it has a 16bit d-a converter and goes on with 16bit files. this is by far less improtant to go from 16 ( or upinterpolated 14...) to upinterpolated 12 bit than from 12 bit to 8bit. 12 still is in 99,9% of the case enough. 8bit will often end up with banding, if you make deeper image editings.

NOTHING especial and really no reason to tell that there is some especial thing in these files,. its not. they are off and have several heavy flaws if you look the closed.
i dont like hysteric brand lovers as i dont like any hysteric ideologic believes. cameras are not goods, but they are put somehow in these psoition. as football clubs. or cars- or politics.
sorry me , dont want to blame anybody but wanted to express . just shake my head how people can say these files are amazing, just a little bit off.
no, they are not amazing. they are off. leica or not. they have wrong colors at the moment over the wole spectrum. horrible skin tones. and 8bit dng files.
if not , maybee i would go and buy one,- just for fun.

Hi Asher
answering your email in the spirit of the Open Photography Leica Club...errr...forum : )

Asher Kelman said:

Will,

I posted a complete reply on LL but I'll copy it back here. For now, let me put it this way. The Leica M8 Digital Rangefinder takes superb pictures.

The ones that don't have the IR magenta, banding, green blobs and purple fringing...

Click to expand...

It has faults which are correctable with a Phase 1C1 curve or an IR cut off filter right now, today, to be pretty good. Leica will do a proper fix for its M8 customers who they value.

LOL ..... Leica is so "proper in looking after its customers" that they had reviewers suppress the flaws they found in thre M8?.......that they sent a product they knew was flawed to market?...............looks like they are still selling the flawed camera ? ...I dont buy that.



I have a different point of view about to what degree these image artifacts can be made "whole", - Lets just see how this thing plays out in the next few months ; )

BTW : I have a contax, fuiji, leica, and polaroid rangefinders.
Yes I am "camera crazy"! (thank you Arthur Elgort) -But I dont favor any brand and have learned each system has pros & cons.

Click to expand...

Michael could have acted like New York Theater Critics, who, from one night's performance, decide to kill a show on its opening night!

hmm...guess you invested in a Broadway play!

Click to expand...

When the bad review is publsihed, a million dollars and years of sweat and creativity are lost and cannot be recovered!

....you invested quite a bit!

Click to expand...

The decision, given the stakes, to grant Leica the time to address the IR problem was no doubt difficult, but I believe, done with good intent and therefore ethical.

I look at Leca and MR in the light of the whole. Leica makes microscopes, surgical scopes that save lives and and R9 system which is breathtaking. The M7 is a marvelous film rangefinder camera in the great tradition of Leica. MR, put his reputation on the line, because the M8 was on the line
What he did was correct, but in a storm, people get stranded, marooned, forgotten on an island, and that happened here.

Let's not make villains out of anyone. It's just a camera not an operation!

Are you directing that at me, or just venting?I never said that.

Click to expand...

Ashehr

Click to expand...

Obviously, you are camera crazy as well!
Best,

Rainer,

Without you what would I know about Munich, a wonderful German family, some of the best prints I've seen ever, the dichotomy of precise architectural images and then a slow shutter portrait style that knocked my socks off?

Arguing with Dierk is no small feat, specifically in his semantic imperatives. Taking on Sean is like challenging the Celts in an invasion of Britain itself. However, responding to your remarks here, are the hardest of all!

I start handicapped. I admire the reviewers. I'm grateful to them. I am, after all, in awe of well engineered things. Leica has symbolized that. My recent tests of the R9 and the DMR reinforced my fascination with Leica and Leica optics.

So there are handicaps to being even and dispassionate. Unfortunately, one of the very factors that ensured our development, tribalism, extends to our political process no less than sports. Worse it is seen in the PC-Mac and the Nikon-Canon sparring we see on forums and ot extending to what Leica makes is, in itself, unsurprising. So stepping into the Leica debate is bound to be contentious. I value your experience on Leica and as you know treasure every word you write on cameras.

Yes, I'm an advocate for Leica as for the RD-1 and Cosina cameras. These all represent the modern expression of a part of close photography that, for some time was bypassed. Most photographers have never even held a rangefinder! Because of the smaller market, it takes more risky investment to bring new models to us. Indeed these arrive like the opening nights at New York Theaters, where waiting critics, can, (and often do) kill a $2,000,000 production in two paragraphs the very next day!

I dined last night with several executives and heard the issue of the reviewers articles argued! I myself was taken back to see my own views strongly questioned.

William,

I see this debate a little differently than most. I admit, I do, at times, frame issues with a touch romantacism and moral imperitive, a dangerous mixture. I allow my faith to see the best in people especially when I identify with some goals. So, unlike the generals, looking down at the battlefield, I can be down in the trenches with my vision obscured, a consequence of being driven to empathize with the people who actually have the most to lose.

Yet, with all this crazines, I do and will strive to be honest, rise above the fray, and not permit my judgement to be flubbed.

I will try to bring to this forum a true picture of what the M8 has to offer.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Rainer,

...............snip..................
I start handicapped. I admire the reviewers. I'm grateful to them. I am, after all, in awe of well engineered things. Leica has symbolized that. My recent tests of the R9 and the DMR reinforced my fascination with Leica and Leica optics.

So there are handicaps to being even and dispassionate. Unfortunately, one of the very factors that ensured our development, tribalism, extends to our political process no less than sports. Worse it is seen in the PC-Mac and the Nikon-Canon sparring we see on forums and ot extending to what Leica makes is, in itself, unsurprising. So stepping into the Leica debate is bound to be contentious. I value your experience on Leica and as you know treasure every word you write on cameras.

Yes, I'm an advocate for Leica as for the RD-1 and Cosina cameras. These all represent the modern expression of a part of close photography that, for some time was bypassed. Most photographers have never even held a rangefinder! Because of the smaller market, it takes more risky investment to bring new models to us. Indeed these arrive like the opening nights at New York Theaters, where waiting critics, can, (and often do) kill a $2,000,000 production in two paragraphs the very next day!

I dined last night with several executives and heard the issue of the reviewers articles argued! I myself was taken back to see my own views strongly questioned.

William,

I see this debate a little differently than most. I admit, I do, at times, frame issues with a touch romantacism and moral imperitive, a dangerous mixture. I allow my faith to see the best in people especially when I identify with some goals. So, unlike the generals, looking down at the battlefield, I can be down in the trenches with my vision obscured, a consequence of being driven to empathize with the people who actually have the most to lose.

Yet, with all this crazines, I do and will strive to be honest, rise above the fray, and not permit my judgement to be flubbed.

I will try to bring to this forum a true picture of what the M8 has to offer.

Asher

Click to expand...

Hi Asher
Thanks for your thoughts about this.
Sounds like youve been piled on enough about it. ; )
Best

On the contrary, if I put myself out there I can be challenged. That is the whole point of an open photography forum.

At the end of discussion here, we should be better prepared to make all the decisions needed todeliver a file or photographic print with pride, satisfaction, great reception and hopefully benefit, financial and otherwise.

Let's see how the much awaited M8 might fit into this scheme of things for all kinds of photography. That is what we want to know here!

Asher

Have you all caught up with the Infa Red Issue, looks pretty bad to me and the only fix for now is to use IR cut filters on the fron of the lens. here is a link to show the problem http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20822038

Hi Daniel,

Caught up? No I've been studying it for many hours! It's really an inescapable issue with the design all digital cameras. How it is dealt with depends on many factors. However, it is not something that one can push aside. Leica has admitted the M8 IR issues and is working for a solution.

I'm interested at this time in where the camera shines.

It's real! however, I feel it will be overcome. Whether or not it will fit into the workflow of wedding and reportage photography is yet to be seen.

Some have an instinctual and intellectual aversion to adding any filter in front of the superb Leica optics that they have invested in!

So we'll have to wait for the planned announcements by Leica in the next 2 weeks and then the reactions that follow from Professional and other capable users.

I'm still excited about the M8. However, I need to get more experience with the actual use and the files.

Asher

had a feeling you would know LOL

just didn't see it mentioned on these pages. I read somewhere that the official fix would be front element filters and a firmware upgrade. problem is to get the firmware side working you had to have coded lenses. I believe the person who said this worked for leica, and was a well respected member of a leica online community.

There's no point in worrying about the coded lens need since we don't know whether or not firmware tweaks can deal with haphazard IR reflections from even IR reflective materials.

Leica for sure has the optical engineers needed. Some solutions can be implemented now, as with a front filter, different for each lens.

I see other solutions appearing in new editions of the camera. Some now in further production and some in a subsequent version.

I see, from the scientific standpoint the following options:

1. Front filters for each lens.

2. A rear lens filter. Perhaps possible technically, could it be implemented physically and in time?

3. Factory replacement of the 0.5mm thin glass cover the CCD with its weak IR blocking capability, for one that is more effective.

4. A firmware/software solution: this can be partial at the most and needs to be in addition to IR cut off, offering, at best, a final tweaking of the color and luminance, not the primary correction.

It will be fascinating to see what the actual remedy might be!

Asher

Jamie Roberts found a C1 profile work-around.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9178-magenta-work-around-capture-one-workflow.html

- DL

Don Lashier said:

Jamie Roberts found a C1 profile work-around.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9178-magenta-work-around-capture-one-workflow.html

- DL

Click to expand...

This solution appeared previously and I have also referenced it. We have yet to see whether or not it can deal completely with the following 3 phenomena:

1. Magenta cast, especially from IR refelctions from blacks on synthetics.

2. Ghost green blobs on the contralateral side of the picture to bright severely overexposed light sources.

3. Purple streaking from areas of severe over-exposure (4-7 stops may be needed).

Right now, the Phase One Ci profile is attractive for problem # 1, except we don't know about the robustness of this solutions for different components of the IR spectrum and diferent flux (luminence) levels. We also need to know if this software solution deals with the haphazard IR reflections.

Further, we have to find out to what extent, if any, other parts of the color space are impacted by the profile. If indeed, the problem is perfectly addressed so easily, then the erro is in not hiring Magne to make C1 profiles in the first place!

As I have been saying all along, I have faith in the M8. One way or another the issues will be addressed. Not only that, the remedies will be progressively refined.

Asher

One thing I should add about software fixes. IR with most optical systems focuses to a different focal plane that does visible light..

Now it is said, but I have not found a definitive source, that Leica lenses focus the IR to the same plane. Just the same, on the pictures I have seen posted, the images taken with IR cut off filters, are it appears, sharper.

So, even though purists might find this distasteful, an IR cut-off filter in front of the lens is likely to be superior to any software solution.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

[...] on the pictures I have seen posted, the images taken with IR cut off filters, are it appears, sharper.

Click to expand...

Hi Asher, do you happen to have a link at hand? I'm not interested enough in the M8 to read the Leica forums, so I have no idea where to search. I'm quite happy with my current equipment and I don't have Leica glass like you do, but I find it an interesting subject by itself.

So, even though purists might find this distasteful, an IR cut-off filter in front of the lens is likely to be superior to any software solution.

Click to expand...

But not all IR filters are usable. A hot-mirror type of coated filter (like the B+W 486 UV and IR cut) changes its effectiveness with the angle of light incidence, and the resulting color in the visible spectrum as a result.

Here are two (linear gamma) examples on my Powershot G3 of a defocused gray card;
one at 7mm wide angle zoom position:


and one at the 28mm tele zoom position:


I've read that Sean Reid will test the M8 with such a 486 filter, I assume he'll confirm my experiences.

It would require a thin IR absorbing filter, which must be relatively expensive compared to a sensor package coverglass solution. A filter in front of the sensor package can be much smaller and, especially in DSLR's (due to restricted angle of incidence), would likely be subject to less challenging angles of incidence.

I don't know who offers such an absorbing filter.

Bart

filters and the M8

Sean Reid posted several pictures from a wedding that he shot last weekend with two M8s and 486 dichroic filters on each one. They look just fine, with natural and flash illumination. Go to the Leica camera users digital forum and look for the "Wedding pictures with M8" and "cut-filters" threads.

In the "cut-filters" thread, which is mostly Guy Mancuso, you can see the effect of putting a dichroic filter in front of a 21mm lens. This doesn't work as well, and leaves cyan tinges around the edges of the frame. It has been pointed out that the range of angles encountered in the ultra-wide angles (24, 21, 15, 12) at the front of the lens is much greater than the range of angles that the light makes meeting the sensor in back of the lens, so the "cyan vignetting" will be less if you fix this at the sensor than with a filter in front.

Something in which there is still forum confusion is just what sort of IR filter the Kodak KAF10500 imager chip is using. The DMR's imager, the Kodak KAF10100, used a dichroic with all the angle-dependence problems to be expected when the lens is moved much closer to the imager than in a DSLR. So the KAF10500, in addition to being much faster (two outputs) and holding 60K electrons per cell instead of 40K for greater dynamic range and ISO capability, has a mysterious "BS-7 absorptive cover glass, thickness 0.5 mm." One assumption is that Leica and Kodak accepted the color shift at the edges, but moved the IR cutoff deeper into the IR to avoid clipping the visible reds at the edges of the imager. But it is also possible that the M8's cover glass is simply a less sharply cutoff colored glass filter, non-dichroic, and thus having less angle-sensitivity.

Still somebody at Leica let fixing the IR sensitivity drop off the bottom of the todo list during 2006, with the present embarassing consequences.

scott

scott kirkpatrick said:

But it is also possible that the M8's cover glass is simply a less sharply cutoff colored glass filter, non-dichroic, and thus having less angle-sensitivity.

Click to expand...

I think the angle sensitivity in an IR absorbing filter is also angle (longer travel distance) dependent, but depending on the lens design the angle is potentially less extreme. It's the (lack of) thickness that will define the fall-off.

Still somebody at Leica let fixing the IR sensitivity drop off the bottom of the todo list during 2006, with the present embarassing consequences.

Click to expand...

Almost incredible, but apparently a design decision rather than an oversight. :-(

Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

I think the angle sensitivity in an IR absorbing filter is also angle dependent,
Bart

Click to expand...

It's different. In an interference filter, passing through at an angle shifts the frequencies at which things cut off up into the visible. In an absorbing layer, passing through at an angle just causes more absorption because the path is longer. So the second case should look like more vignetting and not have a strong color shift. Since a focus in the redesign of the KAF 10500 was to minimize vignetting, but then remove whatever remains in firmware, this would be consistent.

scott

I put the "good" dng back up. it's at:

http://home.pacbell.net/perlisw/L1010374.DNG

I'll try to leave it there.

I have extensively tested the M8, as it is delivered. It works by daylight. Every second night-time shot is wrecked. Also, white balance is always a lottery, by day or by night. If the camera is used in B&W it's mostly ok.

Everyone in the world including this site has refused to run a negative review of the M8 - such is the power of the Leica name. I sent Asher my review in the first week after the camera came out, he didn't believe me and never ran it.


If a point and shoot behaved like this it would be off the market pronto. Why not expect at least normal quality from Leica ?


Who cares about all this filter BS ? Every camera in the world except the Leica does decent colors and black blacks. Even cheap point and shoots.


Edmund

Edmund Ronald said:

I have extensively tested the M8, as it is delivered. It works by daylight. Every second night-time shot is wrecked. Also, white balance is always a lottery, by day or by night. If the camera is used in B&W it's mostly ok.

Everyone in the world including this site has refused to run a negative review of the M8 - such is the power of the Leica name. I sent Asher my review in the first week after the camera came out, he didn't believe me and never ran it.


If a point and shoot behaved like this it would be off the market pronto. Why not expect at least normal quality from Leica ?


Who cares about all this filter BS ? Every camera in the world except the Leica does decent colors and black blacks. Even cheap point and shoots.


Edmund

Click to expand...

Hi Edmond
I remember something about a review here, and *poof* its gone!
I would have liked to read it. : (


Yes, the "leica blinders" are on maximum ; )
Cheers
William

I guess Leica may be able to grind glass, and cut metal, build a traditional fim camera, but I think they are buying in virtually all the technology for the electronics, software, sensor, etc. , for the M8, or else they are themselves a tad useless. So, it's not really a leica anymore. It's just badge engineering, as far as Leica digital is concerned. It is probably not really a market place they want to be in. With film, the lens and build quality was everything. With digital, at the moment, progress is pretty fast, the sensor and software is the important thing, just the areas which Leica know little about. I think they have left it too late to catch up. Very much like the British motor bike industry, the swiss mechanical watchmakers, etc.

If they were aware of the problems before they shipped it (and I think they were) then actually shipping it, then the weak follow up letter, speaks volumes of the company's ethos. It may be just as well that they crash and burn.

Ray West said:

Leica .......buying in virtually all the technology for the electronics, software, sensor, etc. , for the M8, or else they are themselves a tad useless. So, it's not really a leica anymore. It's just badge engineering

The sensor and software is the important thing, just the areas which Leica know little about. I think they have left it too late to catch up. Very much like the British motor bike industry, the swiss mechanical watchmakers, etc.

Click to expand...

Toyota, Apple, Airbus and Dell, all at the cutting edge depend on supply chains, which themselves have suppliers of advanced technology. This is one ecological system that works well. The Canon innards are, by legend at least, made by Canon. Today it's not unusual to have these lines of supply. Why expect less of Leica?

However, this is a harsh world. Bambi has to be alert, or she'll become the Big-Mac special.

Leica is no less, at risk. Leica's advantage is their superior glass and design of lenses. The mating of this advantage to a digital camera path to a final image file requires new system models. This is no longer, as you have pointed out, just a matter of brilliant machining of camera parts, silent shutters and stellar optics.

Now the main remaining digital back experts, Phase One, Jenoptic-Sinar-Leica, Kodak-Leaf so far, will make a "last stand" for themselves around the Hy6 standardized body.

This camera body has Rollei 6x6 6008 heritage, and does not require huge risks for anyone, just a chance of surviving based on the quality of the sensors and the software.

Leica is in this more competitive setup. It is now, I have been told by Leica representatives, organizationally closer to the integration of the Kodak sensors.

My own belief is that in Leica's case, the quality of the files, the utilty of hand-held photography at 1/15sec with the finest lenses ever made is exciting enoughto get the attention of a new breed of photographers always searching for the latest offerings. People will learn of the role of rangefinders and be open to the RD-1 and M8 even with all their limitations. They will be taken by the buzz on what rangefinder photography has to offer in close photgraphy:

The special sense of integration of the photographer, (using a rangefinder), with the field he is looking into, and the non-invasiveness of this type close photography, is going to have to assure the success of this camera.

This potential new rangefinder romance, addiction, affliction or love has to be strong enough to allow Epson and Leica to catch up. We need even better design, integration, software with every stage optimized by QC and feedback from the very photgraphers who use the rangefinders!

This are the bottom line real-politik, rules of survival. It's Leica's fortune, there are enthusiastic photgraphers that the M8 might tempt. After all the M8, despite flaws, offers a lot. I think a lot of people, just trying the Leica will fall in love!

Still, even with eyes wide open, photographers doing intimate work would do well to look at this unique tool. It is not at all suitable for much of photography. However, we will see in the coming weeks and months what it can do and do well for street photography, reportage, weddings and other circumstances whare the rangefinder always exceled.

Asher

This M8 business is really getting tiresome . . .

... its almost like reading one of those edgy political blogs. On one hand, there are the defenders of the flag. On the other, the detractors. Polarization rules. The moderate voice is drowned out, and what is worse, set upon by those at both extremes, and if the spinning doesn't work, they are bashed, or even worse, ignored.

What is it about inanimate objects that get people fighting like dogs over a bone?

If and when the M8 is fixed and I deem it suitable for my intended purpose, I'll get back in line in buy another one. In the meantime, I've been busy making images with my M7 - when not in the studio doing paid work.

John,

I am a pragmatic optimist! Today I'll have an M8 in my hands again and will start using it. That's my approach. Does it work for me?

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

John,

I am a pragmatic optimist! Today I'll have an M8 in my hands again and will start using it. That's my approach. Does it work for me?

Asher

Click to expand...

Ah yes, my friend.

And when my black Billingham camera bag, in my driveway, imaged by my now dearly departed M8 turns black again, as Aahnold says, "I'll be back" - - or is it "I'll be black??"

Jamie Roberts prgressively improving C1 profiles does cure most of the problem for all except the widest lenses and a recent test case on a green colored pile jacket.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9637-new-m8-profiles-c1-instructions.html

and you can download his C1 profile for free!

Jamie is still working hard as are others outside of Leica such as Guy Mancuso and of course Sean Reid to name a few!

Asher