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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Administrative: Storage and access to your pictures on OPF: Your needs and desires requested!!

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Cem's recent mammoth task of assembling in one place all of the 900 pictures posted over the years in numerous threads here on OPF reminds me of a commitment so far unfulfilled!

I have promised that we'd host all the pictures posted here. So this is a job for me to do exactly that. I have all the space and bandwidth. Just need guidance of what people would want. We could have options for word search and ordering prints, if you so desire.

Our IT guy is unfortunately not within our reach anymore! So I need to get a new one.

For now, tell us how we should build this facility and what options folk would want.

Asher
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Cem's recent mammoth task of assembling in one place all of the 900 pictures posted over the years in numerous threads here on OPF reminds me of a commitment so far unfulfilled!

I have promised that we'd host all the pictures posted here. So this is a job for me to do exactly that. I have all the space and bandwidth. Just need guidance of what people would want. We could have options for word search and ordering prints, if you so desire.

Our IT guy is unfortunately not within our reach anymore! So I need to get a new one.

For now, tell us how we should build this facility and what options folk would want.

Asher
Good to hear this Asher. What I have realized is that it is not enough to be able to upload photos to the posts as attachments, even though it would be a giant step forward. We also need to be able to see a collection of all pictures uploaded by a certain user. Only then it will function as a real gallery. But I'll take what I can get anyway. Thanks again.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Good to hear this Asher. What I have realized is that it is not enough to be able to upload photos to the posts as attachments, even though it would be a giant step forward. We also need to be able to see a collection of all pictures uploaded by a certain user. Only then it will function as a real gallery. But I'll take what I can get anyway. Thanks again.

We can readily achieve that.

Nicolas Claris, (to some extent contributing towards my moral compass in such matters, LOL), felt it was bad to have folk search his pictures here. That opinion may have been modified.

I'd like to be able to search and also to license pictures according to the wishes of the owner.

I'll send you a draft design I had for that page..

Thanks for your generous support!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
There is no need to re-invent the wheel. There are numerous sites where one can post and display pictures and the solutions have concentrated in the following directions:

1: Simple forum with capacity to add pictures. This is the simplest to do. It will not change much, just add the ability to attach a picture to a post. But usually, the forums choosing that solution leave messages editable, so that members can remove their pictures even after a few years. Example: luminous-landscape forums.

2: Combined forum and gallery. The intermediary solution where the pictures are in a gallery. Posts are not editable, but the members can delete the pictures in the gallery. They then disappear from posts. Example: dpreview.

3: Gallery with associated forums. This solution is chosen by sites whose main purpose is to sell art. The site is mainly a gallery, but members can comment the art between themselves. This is quite different to what we have here. Example: deviantart.com

The reasons why these different systems exist are:
1: that the constraints on selling art and on discussing in a forum are almost opposed and
2: that it can be extremely important for someone who decides to sell pictures to be able to remove the old ones from the Internet.

Now, Asher, I realize that the reason you go into the trouble of paying for storage space and bandwidth is the exact opposite: you want to avoid orphaned threads. But maybe a deeper reflexion on the purpose and objectives of openphotographyforums is necessary. If you were to create a site from scratch today, what would it be?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

I am not involved in gallerying my work nor in supporting general public or semi-public access to it.

Today, when I include photos in my forum messages, I mount them on my own site (where they are not organized in any way whatsoever) and link to them in my message.

It would be more convenient for me if I could just upload to the OPF site an image that was to be part of a message.

And of course it would eliminate the possibility that the links might be orphaned if I changed my site host and thus the URLs for the images (or if they just became homeless).

As for my modus operandi, this could seemingly be done just with what I expect to be a normal optional feature of the BBS package, as I can do so on some other forums worked with that package. (This is Jerome's item 1.)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi, Asher,

I am not involved in gallerying my work nor in supporting general public or semi-public access to it.

Today, when I include photos in my forum messages, I mount them on my own site (where they are not organized in any way whatsoever) and link to them in my message.

It would be more convenient for me if I could just upload to the OPF site an image that was to be part of a message.

And of course it would eliminate the possibility that the links might be orphaned if I changed my site host and thus the URLs for the images (or if they just became homeless).

As for my modus operandi, this could seemingly be done just with what I expect to be a normal optional feature of the BBS package, as I can do so on some other forums worked with that package. (This is Jerome's item 1.)

Best regards,

Doug

I appreciate the comments.

Is it important to folk here to be able to edit comments even after others have invested time responding? I wonder how a thread would make sense. That's why after ~ 6 hours, I believe and I'll check, comments get fixed. If either the picture or significant comments are remarkably changed or absent then the thread may as well be deleted. But we wanted to have no censorship, as much as possible, so there's the conundrum.

We can retune any parameter to improve user experience.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Is it important to folk here to be able to edit comments even after others have invested time responding? I wonder how a thread would make sense. That's why after ~ 6 hours, I believe and I'll check, comments get fixed. If either the picture or significant comments are remarkably changed or absent then the thread may as well be deleted. But we wanted to have no censorship, as much as possible, so there's the conundrum.

Indeed. Deleting pictures makes threads worthless.

But do we want to store discussions about a particular picture for eternity? Technical discussions may keep some values in 10 years, but we are talking about threads discussing pictures. Do we really want to keep these for decades?

If a member wants to sell his or her pictures as fine art, it will cause trouble. It simply is not possible to be perceived as an "artist" if one has old pictures on display with comments that do not reflect well on their qualities. We actually have one member who left the forum and removed all his pictures for that reason.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Indeed. Deleting pictures makes threads worthless.

But do we want to store discussions about a particular picture for eternity? Technical discussions may keep some values in 10 years, but we are talking about threads discussing pictures. Do we really want to keep these for decades?

If a member wants to sell his or her pictures as fine art, it will cause trouble. It simply is not possible to be perceived as an "artist" if one has old pictures on display with comments that do not reflect well on their qualities. We actually have one member who left the forum and removed all his pictures for that reason.

Well that's a good point, Jerome. Then let's have the option, perhaps of anyone deleting a thread when that photograph is to be published for sale. Could we make that work?

We do have a private professional forum and we could have photographers who intend to sell their pictures or who work professionally, to be able to be protected from negative criticisms being sent out to the WWW.

We could make it visible to only photographers who belong in that category or who are trusted to contribute to valuable discussion. But then wouldn't we destroy the openness of OPF.

We'd need to expand the OPF base to make this work but it could be done.

Ideally, I'd love to see a gallery here with prints for sale but still a vibrant place for open discussion.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Well that's a good point, Jerome. Then let's have the option, perhaps of anyone deleting a thread when that photograph is to be published for sale. Could we make that work?

Taking the example of that person who left the forum: no, it would not work. None of the pictures who were published here were offered for sale, I believe. Removing all pictures was a prerequisite for entering other circles (I don't know which ones), because the comments on the pictures did not reflect well on the capabilities of the artist.

Note that it is not only forums. I have been following some photographers whom I found interesting in the past years to see them disappear and remove their blogs/contributions/whatever after some time. Yet, for the few I was able to trace, I know that they are still active professionally (I may see their names in exhibitions, for example).

We do have a private professional forum

Do you mean the Pro-business Forum or do we have another one?

Ideally, I'd love to see a gallery here with prints for sale but still a vibrant place for open discussion.

I understand what you want, but I don't believe that you have realized how much the Internet has changed in the past 5 years or so. I don't think it is possible to have a common gallery to sell prints together with a discussion forum. The only sites which comes to mind as successful common galleries today would be: 1x.com, yellowkorner.com or lumas.de, where the last two also run brick and mortar shops. Check them up and you will understand that they could not be associated with open forums.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Taking the example of that person who left the forum: no, it would not work. None of the pictures who were published here were offered for sale, I believe. Removing all pictures was a prerequisite for entering other circles (I don't know which ones), because the comments on the pictures did not reflect well on the capabilities of the artist.

Note that it is not only forums. I have been following some photographers whom I found interesting in the past years to see them disappear and remove their blogs/contributions/whatever after some time. Yet, for the few I was able to trace, I know that they are still active professionally (I may see their names in exhibitions, for example).



Do you mean the Pro-business Forum or do we have another one?



I understand what you want, but I don't believe that you have realized how much the Internet has changed in the past 5 years or so. I don't think it is possible to have a common gallery to sell prints together with a discussion forum. The only sites which comes to mind as successful common galleries today would be: 1x.com, yellowkorner.com or lumas.de, where the last two also run brick and mortar shops. Check them up and you will understand that they could not be associated with open forums.

Jerome,

Well, I dream of starting a "museum of modern photography" to take prints to schools, community centers, colleges and churches to give access to work from all over in a new community based model. OPF photographers might provide the images and associated with that we'd have a store, even perhaps a bricks and mortar store in Los Angeles.

So then I'd need a new website perhaps.

But this is something that would be worthy of consideration.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Well, I dream of starting a "museum of modern photography" to take prints to schools, community centers, colleges and churches to give access to work from all over in a new community based model.

You are simply too nice a person, Asher. The problem lies in your idea of "community". I have seen you posting for some time now and I realize that, for you, every photographer and every picture holds value. While this is true up to some point, the very idea behind marketing art is that some people are designated as artists and some people are excluded from that privilege.

I'll repeat that, because it is essential: for your idea to work, you need a way to select people who will not be allowed to hang their pictures on the wall, eat biscuits and drink champagne with the others. You need to select people which you leave alone at the door in the biting cold of the night under the pouring rain, watching the others in the party lights. And you are too nice a person to do that.

A forum is just the opposite: we are all equals here. Nobody is left at the door. Everybody can post pictures and ask questions. But a forum is not designed to sell anything, it is designed as a place where people can share information.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
You are simply too nice a person, Asher. The problem lies in your idea of "community". I have seen you posting for some time now and I realize that, for you, every photographer and every picture holds value. While this is true up to some point, the very idea behind marketing art is that some people are designated as artists and some people are excluded from that privilege.

I'll repeat that, because it is essential: for your idea to work, you need a way to select people who will not be allowed to hang their pictures on the wall, eat biscuits and drink champagne with the others. You need to select people which you leave alone at the door in the biting cold of the night under the pouring rain, watching the others in the party lights. And you are too nice a person to do that.

A forum is just the opposite: we are all equals here. Nobody is left at the door. Everybody can post pictures and ask questions. But a forum is not designed to sell anything, it is designed as a place where people can share information.

Jerome,

Here in OPF we accept everyone who is on an honest journey, attempting to make their own work match and exceed their goals.

( as an aside, I've thought that folk who seriously can/ intend to/ sell as artists and need to have a play space and anonymity, could have pseudonyms by special exception. When I am ready I'd start inviting photographers to participate. We'd have to have a new website which would serve as our gallery and I'd try to get some folk here in Los Angeles to fund a brick and mortar museum. We'd not need more than 10 photographers, actually to starting. But the start would be modest, just exhibiting at schools colleges and the like together with supplying cameras for students and their participation.

I'm meeting with someone who might be able to help me. The way things work is the one gets a group of interested people to form a board that organizes funding. It's still just a notion but getting attention, however, it's a big step going from idea to actual organization.

I'll have to look to the brutal side of my being to reject what's not really excellent. But then that assumes that we really know!)

But for now, the practical matter is that I need a new IT guy to make any updates needed. I'll start looking!

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I think that what you are looking for is more like a school or university than a forum. A school is also a community, but is designed to chose the members who are awarded a "diploma" (or "artist exhibition space" in our case) and who is not. I should also point out that school / university are expensive in the USA, but that is a strange exception. In most other countries, they are more or less free.

I am sorry to insist on this discussion, but I really feel that defining what kind of "community" is really needed for this project is essential.


as an aside, I've thought that folk who seriously can/ intend to/ sell as artists and need to have a play space and anonymity, could have pseudonyms by special exception.

As an aside, there is ample evidence on the Net that forcing people to use their real name does not correlate with more civil behavior. The latest example is youtube, for which google just imposed the use of a google+ account for commenting and that resulted in much worse comments.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
fredmiranda.com is a forum and people do sell prints there.

I also think DPreview does that.

If someone leaves because he/she got negative comments on his/her work then tough luck. That is the real world.

People can be nurtured, encouraged, advised and so forth; but all one's work cannot necessarily be expected to please or be admired by everyone...and at times the work finds prominence after the ' artist's ' death.
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
A forum is just the opposite: we are all equals here. Nobody is left at the door. Everybody can post pictures and ask questions. But a forum is not designed to sell anything, it is designed as a place where people can share information.

Indeed. I fully agree.
OPF can be (and must be) updated with more features like ability to post videos, but stay a forum to share infos opinions, and advices. If we introduce such differentiation : being "galleryable" or not, money buy and sell images, the discussions will be necessarly distorted.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
A forum is just the opposite: we are all equals here. Nobody is left at the door. Everybody can post pictures and ask questions. But a forum is not designed to sell anything, it is designed as a place where people can share information.

I wonder. There seemed to have been a bit of a scrutiny during the enrollment process. I sat on the edge of my keyboard for 2days wondering if Asher would see through me and send my application to the shredder. There was another forum I made application for some time back. Can't remember which one. They rejected my photos based on some arbitrary set of rules they use to determine what is fitting for their site (sight), I guess to maintain some sort of artistic standard.
Personally, I like it here. All sorts of people talk and post all sorts of rubbish and all sorts of people get insulted and praised and yet we soldier on.
If you're going to flog photos or start up a gallery you'll need a committee and you know what happens then. Bugger all! Just make up your own mind and do it. Any idea is a good one at the time.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Just to clarify the matter, one thing we agreed, Nicolas Claris and I, that is, that we'd never teach here or pretend to be gurus.

Everyone who has a path for themselves is welcome, but not with past evidence of hurtful behavior like spamming or flaming.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Just to clarify the matter, one thing we agreed, Nicolas Claris and I, that is, that we'd never teach here or pretend to be gurus.

Everyone who has a path for themselves is welcome, but not with past evidence of hurtful behavior like spamming or flaming.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I am not saying that the experience on opf is bad, I am saying that adding features in the hope to sell pictures would need that experience changed considerably. Maybe the answer is that we should not try to sell pictures so as to keep the opf experience as it is.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am not saying that the experience on opf is bad, I am saying that adding features in the hope to sell pictures would need that experience changed considerably. Maybe the answer is that we should not try to sell pictures so as to keep the opf experience as it is.

Jerome,

You're probably right! I will make the needed upgrades and separately work on sales!

Asher
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Indeed. I fully agree.
OPF can be (and must be) updated with more features like ability to post videos, but stay a forum to share infos opinions, and advices. If we introduce such differentiation : being "galleryable" or not, money buy and sell images, the discussions will be necessarly distorted.

I am not saying that the experience on opf is bad, I am saying that adding features in the hope to sell pictures would need that experience changed considerably. Maybe the answer is that we should not try to sell pictures so as to keep the opf experience as it is.
FWIW, I fully agree with Nicolas and Jerome. I am enthusiastic about the possibility to upload photos or to create own galleries, but not for the purposes of selling art from OPF. They are two totally different things. Even if there is an upload possibility, one does not have to make use of it; it will be optional for those who don't have their own websites or galleries elsewhere so that they can conveniently upload their pictures here without any worries. I, for one, won't be using it as I am principally against uploading my pictures to anywhere but my own websites. But in case I would need to post a technical/explanatory picture to support a discussion in the forums, then I would choose to upload it here for the convenience and the continuation.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I really appreciate the kind advice given by everyone. My big rebuilding project of my kitchen, (destroyed over a year ago in a flood), is now nearing completion. I got side tracked in building a huge glass wine cabinet surrounding a steel sculpture, an inverted "U", like a smoothed architectural Stonehenge, LOL and it should be complete in the coming weeks. The steel arch will be bolted in place this friday! Then a glass door and panels to make the cabinet air tight and we'll switch it on!

At least we're almost completely liberated from dust and mess. My wife is now so happy to have a real kitchen but looks aghast at all the parts to be assembled that I have designed ad hoc for the project!

So my next job, aside from photographing my new muse, is to update everything here according to our needs. Galleries, video, storage, but no sales organized by me!

Asher
 
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