Question - Metering for the sky

Sydney Rester · Oct 25, 2009

I have so much trouble with blown out skies in my outdoor photos (I used to do waaaaay better with my point and shoot), and I've heard people mention 'metering for the sky.' I'm just not sure what this means. Can someone walk me through what you would do as you are taking an outdoor photograph? It would be *greatly* appreciated!

fahim mohammed · Oct 25, 2009

Sydney, welcome to OPF. I guess you are using a dslr. without long stories and theories...

1. use matrix/evaluative metering. put camera in aperture priority mode, and choose an aperture.

2. point at what you want to shoot.

3. examine the picture with the histogram. use exposure compensation ( + or - ) till the highlights are
not blown out where you want the details.

4. there will be times when the contrast range of the scene exceeds that of the sensor. in this case
and without using filters etc., aim to keep the highlights from overblowing in the area of interest.

5. try taking 2 shots, one exposed for the sky and one for the darker areas. combine them in ps.two layers and gradient mask.

6. you will come to know how your camera handles with a bit of experience.

hope this helps.

Sydney Rester · Oct 25, 2009

fahim mohammed said:
Sydney, welcome to OPF. I guess you are using a dslr. without long stories and theories...

1. use matrix/evaluative metering. put camera in aperture priority mode, and choose an aperture.

2. point at what you want to shoot.

3. examine the picture with the histogram. use exposure compensation ( + or - ) till the highlights are
not blown out where you want the details.

4. there will be times when the contrast range of the scene exceeds that of the sensor. in this case
and without using filters etc., aim to keep the highlights from overblowing in the area of interest.

5. try taking 2 shots, one exposed for the sky and one for the darker areas. combine them in ps.two layers and gradient mask.

6. you will come to know how your camera handles with a bit of experience.

hope this helps.

I am using a Canon T1i, which I've had for nearly 90 days now. Thank you for those instructions. That's the clearest explanation I've heard so far, and I will definitely practice. Now to learn layers in PS (Ouch).

Justin Buono · Oct 25, 2009

Good suggestion given above. Another easy way is...

While in Av, Tv or "Green Box" mode, you could let the camera
meter for the sky:

1. Point camera at sky
2. Half shutter click (no release)
3. View the suggested aperture, shutter speed settings

Then, go into Manual "M" mode and dial those aperture and shutter speed settings in. Your photo will be metered for the sky. But, keep in mind that your landscape or whatever object will most likely be a bit underexposed, especially if you have a very bright sky that day. In which case, you'll need to play around with the photo in PS or LightRoom, as was mentioned above.

Mike Shimwell · Oct 28, 2009

fahim mohammed said:
Sydney, welcome to OPF. I guess you are using a dslr. without long stories and theories...

1. use matrix/evaluative metering. put camera in aperture priority mode, and choose an aperture.

2. point at what you want to shoot.

3. examine the picture with the histogram. use exposure compensation ( + or - ) till the highlights are
not blown out where you want the details.

4. there will be times when the contrast range of the scene exceeds that of the sensor. in this case
and without using filters etc., aim to keep the highlights from overblowing in the area of interest.

5. try taking 2 shots, one exposed for the sky and one for the darker areas. combine them in ps.two layers and gradient mask.

6. you will come to know how your camera handles with a bit of experience.

hope this helps.

Hi Sydney

Just to add a bit to what Fahim has said, you may find a need to use raw files if you adopt this strategy. Depending on the contrast on the day it is possible that to save a bright sky you will leave the land/subject underexposed and if you want to brighten it again in post processing you will get better results from raw files.

Also, if the light is constant and you are taking pictures of children and pets, you might try setting the exposure (iso, aperture and shutter) manually based on a reading such as suggested by Fahim above. This will give you consistent exposures and avoid the meter being confused by different pictures including different amounts of bright sky and dark land. Again, try this on something not too critical before using it in an important situation.

best

Mike

Benjamin Vallejera · Oct 29, 2009

for me,
i shoot landscapes just after the sun goes up.
or, i use center-weight spot metering and meter on the horizon,sky touching ground. (but that doesn't work if its too sunny.)

or you can use graduated ND filter to solve the problem

nicolas claris · Oct 29, 2009

Hi Sydney

all good technical advises!

Now, the most you shoot with the sun in your back, the more blue the sky will be.
It seems obvious, but with our modern cameras and excellent "derawtisers' we tend to forget that simple rule!
When I was a kid and used a Kodack Retinette 1b, my father told me to always:
Shoot with the sun (or light) in my back
ƒ8
1/125 second…
Quite a simple but effective rule !

Source

fahim mohammed · Oct 29, 2009

Nicolas, i shall go get my brownie, if someone has not thrown it away! Lovely memories that kodak brings.

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Oct 29, 2009

Nicolas Claris said:
Shoot with the sun (or light) in my back
ƒ8
1/125 second…
Quite a simple but effective rule !

Hi Nicolas,

Your father was correct!

Depending on the film speed used (probably around ASA 50, 18 DIN, at that time), that would approx. equate to what is known as the 'Sunny 16 rule' (some used Sunny 11, depending on geographical latitude and film type). One sets shutter speed equal to (the reciprocal of) film speed (in ISO), and f/16 at noon). For Back-lit scenes increase exposure by 1-2 stops, depending on cloud cover.

'Sunny 16' even works when shooting images of the full moon (!), which is after all also lit by the sun. For a slightly brighter moon one can use 'Sunny 11'.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Oct 29, 2009

Justin Buono said:
Good suggestion given above. Another easy way is...

While in Av, Tv or "Green Box" mode, you could let the camera
meter for the sky:

1. Point camera at sky
2. Half shutter click (no release)
3. View the suggested aperture, shutter speed settings

Then, go into Manual "M" mode and dial those aperture and shutter speed settings in. Your photo will be metered for the sky. But, keep in mind that your landscape or whatever object will most likely be a bit underexposed, especially if you have a very bright sky that day. In which case, you'll need to play around with the photo in PS or LightRoom, as was mentioned above.

Hi Justin,

That's correct, but when one measures the sky (I assume there are clouds there that we want to avoid being clipped) the camera will under expose the sky by 2 or 3 stops. So it is better to increase that manual exposure by say 2 stops to avoid too much underexposure.

A spot meter (or close up) reading of the brightest subject in the scene, then apply a +2 to +3 stop Exposure Correction (+2EC to +3EC) in manual mode, works fine (as long as the light doesn't change drastically).

Cheers,
Bart

Tim Armes · Oct 29, 2009

Sydney Rester said:
I have so much trouble with blown out skies in my outdoor photos (I used to do waaaaay better with my point and shoot), and I've heard people mention 'metering for the sky.' I'm just not sure what this means. Can someone walk me through what you would do as you are taking an outdoor photograph? It would be *greatly* appreciated!

Well, I don't wish to be the cook that spoils the broth, buy I'll give you another method.

I personally always work in manual mode since it gives me control and better shot-to-shot consistency. Here's my method if I'm metering for the sky:

1) Switch to manual and choose desired aperture.
2) Use partial metering.
3) Aim camera at brightest part of sky, look through viewfinder.
4) The viewfinder will have a meter that swings left to right to tell you how bright the object your aiming at will be. On a canon left is brighter.
5) Continue to look and alter the shutter speed so that the sky will be rendered bright, but don't push it off the scale.

Once you're set up you can shoot away in confidence.

Tim

Alain Briot · Oct 29, 2009

Sidney,

My process is simple:

1- I take a photograph using the camera's automatic exposure settings

2- I look at the histogram

3- if the photograph is overexposed, I underexpose the next photograph

4- If the photograph is underexposed, I overexpose the next photograph

5- if I cannot capture all the brightness range in the scene I take several photographs then merge them with photoshop

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Oct 29, 2009

Alain Briot said:
My process is simple:

1- I take a photograph using the camera's automatic exposure settings

2- I look at the histogram

3- if the photograph is overexposed, I underexpose the next photograph

4- If the photograph is underexposed, I overexpose the next photograph

5- if I cannot capture al the brightness range in the scene I take several photographs then merge them with photoshop

Hi Alain,

That's pretty much how I do it, but usually in fewer iterations (often only in 1 exposure), unless a HDR/Fusion of multiple exposures is needed. The histogram is a great help. However, it unfortunately doesn't tell a very accurate story about the Raw file date (it's based on the JPEG thumbnail, which depends on e.g. contrast settings).

Over time one will learn how to interpret the JPEG thumbnail's (RGB) histogram(s), and how it relates to the Raw data that will be available for the Raw conversion process. There often is more usable data in the Raw file than the JPEG/histogram suggests.

Cheers,
Bart

Alain Briot · Oct 29, 2009

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:
Hi Alain,

That's pretty much how I do it, but usually in fewer iterations (often only in 1 exposure), unless a HDR/Fusion of multiple exposures is needed. The histogram is a great help. However, it unfortunately doesn't tell a very accurate story about the Raw file date (it's based on the JPEG thumbnail, which depends on e.g. contrast settings).

Over time one will learn how to interpret the JPEG thumbnail's (RGB) histogram(s), and how it relates to the Raw data that will be available for the Raw conversion process. There often is more usable data in the Raw file than the JPEG/histogram suggests.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,

Completely agree. This is the "for students" version. I go much faster. I don't even use a light meter since my Hasselblads don't have one built in. I just rely on my experience with natural light to make what I will be so bold as to call a very educated guess.

AB

fahim mohammed · Oct 29, 2009

various techniques have been mentioned for exposure metering so that one does not blow the sky highlights.

I would like to also suggest that getting a technically perfect and correct 'rgb' histogram, for me at least is not the ultimate objective. To capture the essence of what one feels at the time one decides to take a
picture and have it exposed at, or after the time of exposure ,to convey the orginal emotional impact to
me remains the challenge.

To paraphrase, there is no correct metering technique for a vague vision.

Bart_van_der_Wolf · Oct 29, 2009

fahim mohammed said:
To paraphrase, there is no correct metering technique for a vague vision.

Hi Fahim,

You are absolutely correct. But what we are seeking here is a way to avoid one of the things that can distract from getting that vision across. Photography is a special mix of technical skill and creative vision. He/she who masters them both to perfection, is a fortunate person for he/she can express that vision more effectively. The others have to work harder, and hope ...

Cheers,
Bart

Alain Briot · Oct 29, 2009

Fahim,

"there is no correct metering technique for a vague vision"

Actually, with digital capture exposure is far less critical than with film since images can be greatly changed during conversion and processing. As long as you capture details everywhere, you pretty much keep all your options open and can express different things with the same capture.

However, if expressing your vision is your goal, then you need to focus on the artistic aspects, not the technical aspects. What you want to express needs to be your primary concern.

You also need to ask yourself what your vision is.

AB

fahim mohammed · Oct 29, 2009

Hi Bart, Alain...

I think we all agree, technical competance is as much required as is artistic vision. With modern day dslrs, getting a technically correct exposure as has been suggested is what...3/4 shots maximum. I however find that my issue and struggle remains :

1. what and why

2. how to get the ' what '

3. after that it is much easier.

I always fail in numbers 1/2. I think I have got number 3 under the belt.

alain, just looking at your 2 books is what I am refering to here.

Alain Briot · Oct 30, 2009

Fahim,

Since you have my books, I suggest doing some of the exercises in the inspiration, creativity, vision and personal style chapters. These are very useful in helping you define your vision.

ALain

fahim mohammed · Oct 30, 2009

thanks Alain for your suggestions. I am sure I could learn a lot from your books. If, however, I learnt them perfectly would I not become the master's pupil? Duplicating the master's work. excellent though it surely shall be for me to even approach your level of artistic and technica competance. I think my goals lie somewhere else. I enjoy and continue my learning of the techniques and the process/es you go thru to realise your vision. But you are already way way ahead of me, you start with a vision.

I neither have a visions nor dreams ( of course photographic ones) Is all lost for me then?

Best.

Alain Briot · Oct 30, 2009

You are welcome. We all have to find our path to knowledge.

fahim mohammed · Nov 6, 2009

I have been in Dubai ( and still am ) on vacation with my wife. Lounging on the sea-side ( yes we can here ), it knocked me cold.. What I was doing wrong with my photography all along. Something I read in a book recently hit me and how true it is.

In the book I read about Michealangelo ( spelling! ) who when asked how he could create such beautiful scupltures replied. ' I take a block of marble and slice away everything till only the sculpture remains. ' WoW!

Secondly, I know where my photographic passion lies...it is not in landscapes, man-made objects, macros, flowers, etc. I knew it all along but never gave it serious consideration.

Today it stared me in the face...literally! I love people, their humanity, their struggles, joys, sadness, laughter and cries and their surrounds within which all this drama plays out.That is the path I have to follow to realise my photograhic vision. To paraphrase a sentence from the book..' the people are my subject but not the subject matter'. Precisely! What a fool I have been.

Just had to share it with you all.

May the Light be with you.

Mike Shimwell · Nov 6, 2009

Fahim, I am pleased that you see what your pictures have shown all along - your photographs reveal the love of people and humanity that is echoed in your writing. If you look back over your pictures from Sweden, India, Manchester or anywhere else, you have been entirely consistent.

I hope you will continue to share your path with us as I always enjoy seeing your work.

And may the Light and the light be with you!

Mike

Question - Metering for the sky

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