Which one ?

I am confused!! So many choices.

May I request suggestions/recommendations for a small camera I can use meeting most of the following
requirements..

- interchangeable lens
- Excellent ISO performance up to at least 1600
- Relatively fast AF
-add-on view finder if desired ( EVF, OVF, anything else recommended?).
- Raw capability
- Portraits, I love to take portraits.

Contestants ( I am only interested from amongst these..unless I have omitted something obvious ).

Lumix M4/3, Olympus M4/3, Ricoh GXR system,Sony Nex.

Experiences with anyone of these is really welcome. Ergonomics, ease of use etc.

Thank you.

Pentax Q

Please see this link as well. It has some pretty nice specs and it's smaller than a playing card.

http://www.pentaximaging.com/slr/Q_Black/

Hi Kyle,

Thank you for the quick response.

I read about it but really was not very interested as it stands. IF it had a larger sensor (maybe the K7's or K5's ) I'd give it very serious consideration.

It, to me, is a very niche product and I am apprehensive of Pentax's directions with this.

Kindest regards.

The question is "interchangeable lens to what?". What kind of lens do you want to use on that camera? That will probably constrain your choices considerably.

I would say the nex because of it's available adapter for all your beautifull zeiss/leica lens you already own.
Here's a flickr group dedicated to Sony NEX-5 and Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander lens


http://www.flickr.com/groups/1548589@N23/


Also you may want to wait till the end of august as nikon may be anouncing some new items.
The EVIL camera perhaps.

End of September for that one it seems, according to Thom Hogan. Here is an article by him comparing some of those options.

I'm also wondering about those choices plus perhaps Fujifilm X100.

Jerome Marot said:

The question is "interchangeable lens to what?". What kind of lens do you want to use on that camera? That will probably constrain your choices considerably.

Click to expand...

Hi Jerome,

I would like to use my M-mount lenses and sometimes my Zeiss F Mounts ( expect them to be huge on
the M4/3 bodies!!)

Thanks Jerome. Much appreciated.

jake klein said:

I would say the nex because of it's available adapter for all your beautifull zeiss/leica lens you already own.
Here's a flickr group dedicated to Sony NEX-5 and Leica, Zeiss, Voigtlander lens


http://www.flickr.com/groups/1548589@N23/


Also you may want to wait till the end of august as nikon may be anouncing some new items.
The EVIL camera perhaps.

Click to expand...

Jake, thank you so much..Just the link I needed.

Indeed, I am anxiously waiting for some ' new' items.

Take care.

Murray Foote said:

End of September for that one it seems, according to Thom Hogan. Here is an article by him comparing some of those options.

I'm also wondering about those choices plus perhaps Fujifilm X100.

Click to expand...

Good evening Murray.

How you been?

I would love to have the Fuji X100..lovely camera with a super IQ. But fixed lens!!

I have visited bythom for some time. Grateful for your suggestion and link.

Now if only one can afford all one ' wants '!!

Best wishes.

fahim mohammed said:

I would like to use my M-mount lenses and sometimes my Zeiss F Mounts ( expect them to be huge on
the M4/3 bodies!!)

Click to expand...

Quite frankly, it does not make much sense, especially if you already own a M8. Here is a link to a flickr gallery showing how big these lenses are on an Olympus EP-1:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jerome_munich/sets/72157625886896716/

It will not be any better for the Sony NEX, since the camera is even smaller.

In my opinion, there are very few lenses which are really useful adapted on these cameras (µ4/3 or NEX), most are too big and not wide enough. OTOH, the µ4/3 has interesting lenses, especially the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 and the Olympus 9-18mm zoom. To a lesser extent, the Panasonic 14mm f/2.5. The NEX line has the 16mm f/2.8, and for the moment that is about it.

None of these cameras is convenient if you need a viewfinder. In that case, take a Panasonic GH1/2/3 or wait for the NEX-7.

About Nikon: rumor is that the system to be announced will use a very small sensor. That would mean adapted lenses would be even less useful than on µ4/3. Of course, rumors are not always true.

fahim mohammed said:

Jake, thank you so much..Just the link I needed.

Indeed, I am anxiously waiting for some ' new' items.

Take care.

Click to expand...

Here is a biased review but shows some of the manual focusing aids in three of the compact big sensor cams.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DigitalRevCom#p/u/1/1p896tm9haU

Jerome, thank you for that informative link and very useful comments.

Waiting...

Kindest regards.

jake klein said:

Here is a biased review but shows some of the manual focusing aids in three of the compact big sensor cams.

http://www.youtube.com/user/DigitalRevCom#p/u/1/1p896tm9haU

Click to expand...

Jake, again a big thank you for pointing me to an interesting and informational url.

Much appreciated.

fahim mohammed said:

Good evening Murray.

How you been?

I would love to have the Fuji X100..lovely camera with a super IQ. But fixed lens!!

I have visited bythom for some time. Grateful for your suggestion and link.

Now if only one can afford all one ' wants '!!

Best wishes.

Click to expand...

Good evening Fahim

I am well and slowly getting through my processing backlog.

The answer to your question really depends on what you are looking for, especially since you have an M8. Are you looking for a system camera or something emininetly pocketable, perhaps with autofocus? Are you looking for something to replace the M8, something smaller to complement the M8, or just wondering what is possible?

When I went on my Antarctic trip I decided not to take a small camera with me, then I saw my travelling comanin get a lot of shots I missed out on with his LX5. So I am also cnsidering the alternatives.

The X100 might work for me. I have a 1937 Rolleiflex TLR that is a very nice camera to use though I haven't used it for a long time. I also have a Gaoersi 617 that I mainly used with a Rodenstock 75mm that could even make a street camera, though hardly small, light or inconspicuous. I think if a camera is compelling enough, it will compel you to use it.

The advantage of the X100 is that is gives image quality as good as the D300 (according to DxO) and is very compact, because of the fixed lens. You could get a very compact 4/3 camera with a pancake lens and another lens in another pocket but there are currently no 4/3 alternatives with a zoom range and pocketability like the LX5.

I'll be interested to see what Nikon come up with (and whether Canon are about to do something similar). It supposedly has a 2.7x crop factor, which is still a lot bigger than a digicam sensor, and the obvious reason for that would be to produce something significantly smaller than micro 4/3.

Hello Murray,

Straight up, I would love to get a X100. But only for a few days. Just to caress it, so to speak. A few days later I would need a different lens!!

One moment I want this and that and that. I pick up my Nikon and I want that and that and that.

Indecision reigns supreme..and then I say screw it all, I shall just stick with what I have.

But I do want something lighter, High ISO, low noise, Good DR and so on and so forth.

The selection process and waiting is exciting though!!

Stay well Murray.

fahim mohammed said:

Hello Murray,

Straight up, I would love to get a X100. But only for a few days. Just to caress it, so to speak. A few days later I would need a different lens!!

One moment I want this and that and that. I pick up my Nikon and I want that and that and that.

Indecision reigns supreme..and then I say screw it all, I shall just stick with what I have.

But I do want something lighter, High ISO, low noise, Good DR and so on and so forth.

The selection process and waiting is exciting though!!

Stay well Murray.

Click to expand...

If only they could strap a D3S sensor in your M8. I wonder how long we'll be waiting for something like that.

The perfect camera for me would be a leica/EPL3 sized body, plenty of knobs, wheels, and buttons to keep me away from the menu screen, manual focus except for AF-S lens, beautifull 100% viewfinder(EVF or mirror type), and what ever the next best FF sensor(or larger perhaps) with insane ISO performance.

Awww, but is a dream. But at the rate technology is advancing, I bet it will be in our lifetime.

fahim mohammed said:

Straight up, I would love to get a X100. But only for a few days. Just to caress it, so to speak. A few days later I would need a different lens!!

Click to expand...

What lenses do you regularly use? Focal length (please specify crop factor)? Aperture?

Fahim,

I am wondering myself what to take.

K-5 and 70 Ltd lens make a nice and discreet portrait combo, but I am afraid that his is beyond your scope in terms of size.
There is a new module for the Ricoh GXR allowing to use M-Mount lenses with an APS-C sensor.

Could this be something for you?

Kind regards,
Michael

jake klein said:

If only they could strap a D3S sensor in your M8. I wonder how long we'll be waiting for something like that.

The perfect camera for me would be a leica/EPL3 sized body, plenty of knobs, wheels, and buttons to keep me away from the menu screen, manual focus except for AF-S lens, beautifull 100% viewfinder(EVF or mirror type), and what ever the next best FF sensor(or larger perhaps) with insane ISO performance.

Awww, but is a dream. But at the rate technology is advancing, I bet it will be in our lifetime.

Click to expand...

I am with you Jake. We can dream can't we

But I really do not want a cockpit..that is a primary reason I use my Ms. Believe me, I have not explored the full menus on my D700!!

If only film could be processed everywhere, I would not be searching at all!!

Thanks.

Jerome Marot said:

What lenses do you regularly use? Focal length (please specify crop factor)? Aperture?

Click to expand...

Hi Jerome..

28/35/50/75-85-100mm 35mm ff equivalent. Primes. Very very rarely more than 2 from these at any one time. The 85 and 100mm on the Nikon are now a PITA for me, but the results make me forget
the pain!! Even the M-mount 75/2 I wish I could avoid, but it is bearable.

I usually limit myself to around a max of f/5.6. Mostly I am within f/2.8 to f/1.4 ( fastest lenses I have).

Take care and thanks.

Michael Nagel said:

Fahim,

I am wondering myself what to take.

K-5 and 70 Ltd lens make a nice and discreet portrait combo, but I am afraid that his is beyond your scope in terms of size.
There is a new module for the Ricoh GXR allowing to use M-Mount lenses with an APS-C sensor.

Could this be something for you?

Kind regards,
Michael

Click to expand...

Michael, I almost went with the K-5 and would have just got 2 lenses the 33ltd and the 77ltd. After reading reports of issues with focus ( in camera and in lenses ), I pulled back. It is a mouth watering offering no doubt. Just that the FF 35/70 lenses are getting long in the tooth and are not WS no have
speedy focus.

The GXR M-module is interesting..very. But there is a cost penalty with this Ricoh system.
And as Jerome correctly pointed out earlier the jury is still out on the performance delivered with
M lenses with these sensors!!

We do live in interesting times though.

Thank you very much for your suggestions.

fahim mohammed said:

28/35/50/75-85-100mm 35mm ff equivalent. Primes. (...)
I usually limit myself to around a max of f/5.6. Mostly I am within f/2.8 to f/1.4 ( fastest lenses I have).

Click to expand...

Then the answer is relatively simple:

Panasonic 14mm F2.5, 20mm f/1.7 and Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 (or use your 50mm on an adapter).

The camera will then be a Panasonic GHx if you use a viewfinder most of the time or one of the new small Olympus if you want to try using the rear screen. Personally, I would choose a PEN E-PL3, because it is small, has built-in stabilization and a tiltable screen, but you should try to see if you like the controls first.

The camera is not the question. The question is the lenses...

fahim mohammed said:

The 85 and 100mm on the Nikon are now a PITA for me, but the results make me forget the pain!!

Click to expand...

Don't you have a Nikon D700? You mean that the D700/ 85mm combination is too big or too heavy? I am not sure I understand what is the problem.

Jerome thanks for taking the time to respond to my indecisive camera/lens choices.

I have the D700. I also have the 85/1.4 and the zf 100/2 for it. I find this combination, with either lens but more so with the 100mm ) to be physically big and unwieldy for me. Additionally, it is too heavy, in kilograms, for me to lug around for extended periods of time.

My general shooting pattern is that I decide which lens to use for that day/outing etc. I stick with this setup for considerable periods of time. With the Nikon, mostly because I do not carry the other Nikon lens

With the M, I carry two lenses, but rarely change them for that outing.

So I am looking for a setup that would ideally be small in size, light in weight, could use M lenses if need be
and have very high ISO capability. My Nikon is hard to beat in this respect.

What you suggest looks very interesting and tempting..but I shall not rush before the sony nex-7.

Kindest regards.

fahim mohammed said:

I have the D700. I also have the 85/1.4 and the zf 100/2 for it. I find this combination, with either lens but more so with the 100mm ) to be physically big and unwieldy for me. Additionally, it is too heavy, in kilograms, for me to lug around for extended periods of time.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by "too big", if you do not mean "too big to lug around"? Too big to hold in your hands? Too visible for others?

You also say it is too big to lug around. How do you carry your camera around? In a bag with other equipment? Alone hanging on your neck/shoulder?

Jerome Marot said:

What do you mean by "too big", if you do not mean "too big to lug around"? Too big to hold in your hands? Too visible for others?

You also say it is too big to lug around. How do you carry your camera around? In a bag with other equipment? Alone hanging on your neck/shoulder?

Click to expand...

Visibiltity of the camera is not the issue.

it is the dimensions with the lens/hood attached..in cms all round and in kg.

I carry my camera hanging on my shoulder or in case of M around my wrist.

best.

Why would the physical size of the camera (in cm) be a problem if you don't need to put it in a bag?

Excuse me if I am asking too many questions, but you are not the first person complaining about the size/weight of cameras and I never quite understood what were the problems. For me, there are only three camera sizes:
-small enough to put in my shirt/jacket pocket
-bigger, so that it needs a camera bag or it needs to be carried on a strap
-too big to carry.

If we are just talking about the camera with one attached lens, about everything with interchangeable lenses fails in category 2. If we are talking about taking a collection of lenses (say: 3 or 4, I never take more and even rarely take that many), then indeed the type of camera may enter the equation, because they quickly add up (especially zooms).

As to weight, my personal limit is around 2 Kg if I carry a camera or bag on the shoulder. Heavier starts to get tiring after a while, but 2 Kg I don't even feel. That would be a full frame DSLR with one lens and maybe a few personal items (e.g. wallet, cell phone) in a small bag.

Jerome..I would like a camera system with a weight around 1100 gms with a lens of fl ( 75 upto 100 mm including hood ) attached. Prime lens of course. The camera body around the size and weight of a M body, about 600 gms.

A wish list of mine. I think the M4/3 would fit the bill and the newer sensors offer some excellent high ISO
performance.

I am waiting for definite info on the Sony Nex-7.

Thank you.

Hi, Jerome,

Jerome Marot said:

Why would the physical size of the camera (in cm) be a problem if you don't need to put it in a bag?

Click to expand...

I become conscious of the overall "envelope" of the camera (that is, body, current lens, and hood) when I am carrying the camera on a wrist strap (as I will often do when at an "event"). The larger the envelope, the more I have to maneuver it when going through small doorways or through thick crowds. And often young people at full run will collide with it.

This factor conspires with the matter of the weight of the rig.

Best regards,

Doug

Hi, Fahim,

fahim mohammed said:

A wish list of mine. I think the M4/3 would fit the bill and the newer sensors offer some excellent high ISO performance.

Click to expand...

I personally am quite fascinated by the Micro Four Thirds (MFT) "movement".

I think there is the potential for this paradigm to have the same impact on "serious" photography that the full-frame 35-mm camera had in the late 1930's (the start of the "miniature photography" era).

I'll be anxious to see what your actual next step is.

Best regards,

Doug

Canon EOS 550D: 530g (with battery and card). Canon 50mm f/1.8 (equivalent 80mm on the 550D): 130g. Total for the camera with a lens: 660g.

I am just picking this one out, because it is a very common camera, not because I advise for this particular camera. I just want to show that a total weight of 1100g is easy to get.