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Best ever news!

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/09/27/n...-with-interchangeable-sensor.aspx/#more-64774

The highly rumoured interchangeable sensor camera is on Nikon's plans! Can you imagine this?
You buy a body... and then 4-5 sensors!
I want mine with a 16mp "fast- LL" sensor, a B&W sensor, a "true colour" no BP no AA filter one, an IR one and another one for astrophotography! ....hope they won't delay this.
It's like going back to film days magic, ...but with digital quality! I never understood why I am restricted to use only one "film" when using a DSLR...
 
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/09/27/n...-with-interchangeable-sensor.aspx/#more-64774

The highly rumoured interchangeable sensor camera is on Nikon's plans! Can you imagine this?

Hi Theodoros,

A patent is not a product, and may even never become a product. Therefore it's not news, as such.

Patents for "interchangeable pickup devices" have been filed before, e.g. here is one by Kodak from some 24 years ago.

It's nice to speculate, but let's stay a bit realistic ...

Cheers,
Bart
 
Hi Theodoros,

A patent is not a product, and may even never become a product. Therefore it's not news, as such.

Patents for "interchangeable pickup devices" have been filed before, e.g. here is one by Kodak from some 24 years ago.

It's nice to speculate, but let's stay a bit realistic ...

Cheers,
Bart
I never said (or implement) that this is a coming product Bart... It is a good subject for a discussion though, about the benefits of such an approach and certainly the fact that Nikon made some research (and expenses) on the matter and asked their engineers to do research on it to the point of making it feasible is encouraging...

Besides, what happened 25 years ago, has little to do with today, as costs are only a small fraction of what they used to be and will (obviously) continue dropping rapidly. My opinion is, that this is a great idea that should proceed into production as soon as possible. Also, a patent can't be considered as speculation... it's realistic by definition. ...Nor I want a conversation on people speculating on the matter, I would prefer one for the benefits of such an approach.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

A very interesting notion.

What kinds of different sensor properties would you be interested in having available (based on what we now know)?

• Different overall dimensions?

• Different pixel pitches?

• Monochrome vs. CFA vs. true tricolor?

• Different spectral characteristics (e.g., IR sensitivity, UV sensitivity, etc.)?

• Different embedment of special provisions for AF?

• You mentioned different AA filter characteristics (if any).

Best regards,

Doug
 
Hi, Theodoros,

A very interesting notion.

What kinds of different sensor properties would you be interested in having available (based on what we now know)?

• Different overall dimensions?

• Different pixel pitches?

• Monochrome vs. CFA vs. true tricolor?

• Different spectral characteristics (e.g., IR sensitivity, UV sensitivity, etc.)?

• Different embedment of special provisions for AF?

• You mentioned different AA filter characteristics (if any).

Best regards,

Doug
High Doug, lets see... I'll try to list this with a priority (my personal priority) series... I also suppose that such a camera would be a 24x36 image size one (being a Nikon able to mount Nikkors on it), so I don't think that image size can be an option (lesser can always be implemented into larger).
Also... I will not include a "true tricolour" sensor in the list, since they can't be considered "current technology" or have matured enough yet, (It's only the small size foveon in production ...no?) although that would be first in the list.

1. An all around "fast" sensor with great LL capabilities (something like D4's sensor) would be a nice base.
2. A B&W with no AA filter is what I believe many photographers miss...
3. A high resolution, again no AA filter, but with no micro lenses too would make the perfect MFDB alternative for low ISO...
4. A dedicated sensor for IR photography is also what some photographers miss...

I would start with those, but there are many more that different photogs would have in their priorities... Raw video, 4K video, long exposure, Astrophotography... you name it!
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
This all sounds like Formula 1 talk over a scratchy radio in my 10 year old Corolla. Can't we do all that stuff already? I can understand someone with a scientific application going stir crazy at the notion but does this really have a general application? Is it really going to make a difference to your pictures or are you just making the hole in you trouser pocket big enough to fit your hand through.
 
This all sounds like Formula 1 talk over a scratchy radio in my 10 year old Corolla. Can't we do all that stuff already? I can understand someone with a scientific application going stir crazy at the notion but does this really have a general application? Is it really going to make a difference to your pictures or are you just making the hole in you trouser pocket big enough to fit your hand through.
I think your POV is totally wrong Tom, this development (if it will become a reality - which I believe it will) is primarily of importance to pros and artists, who can maximise the performance of their system greatly and save a fortune!

For pros, to be able to use one system only, with only one series of lenses and have the ability to perform different tasks without having to purchase dedicated equipment for the task (which they now do), but instead to adapt what they already have up to the task is a real blessing!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I think your POV is totally wrong Tom, this development (if it will become a reality - which I believe it will) is primarily of importance to pros and artists, who can maximise the performance of their system greatly and save a fortune!

Making the sensor exchangeable would not be cheap. The present situation is actually cheaper to manufacture and sell, especially considering economies of sales. Today, you could do the following:
-get a D800 for general shooting
-get a D800E for when you need the extra bite of no AA filter
-get a D700 for bigger pixels
-get a D600 and modify it for IR
-get a D600 and modify it for B&W.

You'll have a choice of sensor for when you need it. Sounds expensive? It is probably much cheaper than having a special cameras with special sensors which would be a niche product. Niche products are really expensive in electronics.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
I think your POV is totally wrong Tom, this development (if it will become a reality - which I believe it will) is primarily of importance to pros and artists, who can maximise the performance of their system greatly and save a fortune!

For pros, to be able to use one system only, with only one series of lenses and have the ability to perform different tasks without having to purchase dedicated equipment for the task (which they now do), but instead to adapt what they already have up to the task is a real blessing!

Not even a tiny bit right, Theo. Gee, that's harsh. I know you pro's and artists out there are something special and need all that super stuff with lots of interchangeable components just to get a decent picture, But as Jerome says, its probably cheaper for you to buy a few camera bodies and get some lessons on how to take pictures. I don't doubt someone is working on your perfect system and I don't doubt someone will come up with it soon enough. After all, current technology is capable of thinking up, developing and producing what I consider the most useful piece of inventiveness since the Sticky Note; ie, the little nick on the side of sealed plastic bags so you can tear them open without warranting the use of a Swiss Army Knife or your loosening your dentures.
The question I would ask is; will it make a difference to your shots or will it just put you in a position of waiting for the next development?

I also think you need a life if a 'real blessing' involves the production of a limited use camera. Have a look around you. You might find some blessings closer to home and cheaper, like the wife and kids, a home cooked meal, a bottle or two of fine red and an aspirin in the morning with the first coffee.
 
Not even a tiny bit right, Theo. Gee, that's harsh. I know you pro's and artists out there are something special and need all that super stuff with lots of interchangeable components just to get a decent picture, But as Jerome says, its probably cheaper for you to buy a few camera bodies and get some lessons on how to take pictures. I don't doubt someone is working on your perfect system and I don't doubt someone will come up with it soon enough. After all, current technology is capable of thinking up, developing and producing what I consider the most useful piece of inventiveness since the Sticky Note; ie, the little nick on the side of sealed plastic bags so you can tear them open without warranting the use of a Swiss Army Knife or your loosening your dentures.
The question I would ask is; will it make a difference to your shots or will it just put you in a position of waiting for the next development?

I also think you need a life if a 'real blessing' involves the production of a limited use camera. Have a look around you. You might find some blessings closer to home and cheaper, like the wife and kids, a home cooked meal, a bottle or two of fine red and an aspirin in the morning with the first coffee.

What Jerome says Tom is pure speculation (actually it's the definition of speculation)... As a man that has a British degree in Mech&Prod engineering I am in a position to ensure you that the price increase due to sensor interchangeability will be insignificant to consider (less than 10%), while the saving (for using much less equipment and easily at low cost upgradeable) can be one of more than halving the expenses.
OTOH, your suggestion to pros and artists not to seek advancement on their work and diminish their position to competition and customers is totally insane... It's provision to their families and love which is of importance to them and the tools (as in every other work) are important to be able to provide! ....That is unless you know another way of drilling ground holes without a powered drill!
To your question if this would improve ones (a pros or an artist's) photography, the answer is both "yes" and "No..., but it will cut expenses to less than half while increase flexibility", depending on what one does... But again, it's difficult to explain when one, being out of dancing... can think of dancing better than the dancers.
 
Cameras with interchangeable sensors exist... Think Phase One or Hasselblad. ;)

I can ensure you Jerome, that no P1 or Hassy have an interchangeable sensor camera or an interchangeable sensor MFDB.... In fact I wish they had an interchangeable sensor MFDB.... since they use the same frame, processing engine, recording media, screen and cooling system for their backs!
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
What Jerome says Tom is pure speculation (actually it's the definition of speculation)... As a man that has a British degree in Mech&Prod engineering I am in a position to ensure you that the price increase due to sensor interchangeability will be insignificant to consider (less than 10%), while the saving (for using much less equipment and easily at low cost upgradeable) can be one of more than halving the expenses.
OTOH, your suggestion to pros and artists not to seek advancement on their work and diminish their position to competition and customers is totally insane... It's provision to their families and love which is of importance to them and the tools (as in every other work) are important to be able to provide! ....That is unless you know another way of drilling ground holes without a powered drill!
To your question if this would improve ones (a pros or an artist's) photography, the answer is both "yes" and "No..., but it will cut expenses to less than half while increase flexibility", depending on what one does... But again, it's difficult to explain when one, being out of dancing... can think of dancing better than the dancers.

Having a British degree makes all the difference, Theo. I just have a couple of Aussie ones. They're of no value to anyone except for wall papering and wiping ones arse on. Was sooth saying part of yours as well? Your suggestion of my suggestion must have been pulled out of that same hat as your other predictions. And to 'ensure' of happenings in the future is certainly a part of a degree I would like to have included in my studies. Such certainty is beyond most of us lesser persons.
You're a young man, so I'll forgive you for your slight indiscretion into the world of wisdom. You see, I don't have to think about competition and customers. They are a thing of the past. Now I can rid myself of such consumer constraints and take my cute little point and press for a walk and enjoy the world that you painstakingly want to record and I can enjoy for real.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I can ensure you Jerome, that no P1 or Hassy have an interchangeable sensor camera or an interchangeable sensor MFDB.... In fact I wish they had an interchangeable sensor MFDB.... since they use the same frame, processing engine, recording media, screen and cooling system for their backs!

Obviously, I know that one exchanges some of the electronics with the sensor when one takes the back out of an Hasselblad or Phase One camera. Check how much these components cost (hint: you have about the same in a small smart phone) and check how much a MF sized CCD chip costs. Check how much the camera body itself costs. You should realize that the MF cameras are very much the equivalent of a camera where the sensor can be exchanged.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
It's good that we can have this kind of scientific discourse here, without the nuisance of having to navigate to DPR.

We of course already have a couple of situations that approach what Theodoros suggests would be attractive:

• In the "medium format" sphere, we have interchangeable digital backs. This is perhaps ""65% like" what Theodoros speaks of.

• We have the Ricoh GXR, in which we have "camera-lets", which are interchangeable in a "carcass" that provides some common support. This is perhaps ""30% like" what Theodoros speaks of.

A challenge in making an interchangeable sensor is how much of the supporting system would be in the module. My guess is that to best exploit the concept, there should be a great deal of the supporting system in the module (of course today there is a great deal of it in the "sensor" proper). I don't see this as weakening the concept, given that today 10,000,000 transistors costs about the same as a shoulder screw.

************

As to English degrees, there are 360 of them to a rotation, as contrasted to French degrees, of which there are 400 to a revolution.

I suppose that Australian degrees are much the same as the British ones, but perhaps the sign convention would be reversed.

As to saloons on Mars, do you chaps think they should be required to open late on Sunday?

Breakfast B today. Five kinds of fruit, scrambled eggs, bacon, rice-flour pancakes (in beta testing), and 16 IU of insulin.

Best regards,

Doug
Just a telephone engineer
 
Obviously, I know that one exchanges some of the electronics with the sensor when one takes the back out of an Hasselblad or Phase One camera. Check how much these components cost (hint: you have about the same in a small smart phone) and check how much a MF sized CCD chip costs. Check how much the camera body itself costs. You should realize that the MF cameras are very much the equivalent of a camera where the sensor can be exchanged.

I've checked Jerome, thanks! ...I've checked with my friends (or ex-student mates in university) working in Israel... The most expensive sensor used on MFDB today is less than half than 1000 sold to the maker of the MFDB... What did you say? ...FF cmos sensors cost around 100 or less to the makers Jerome... if some one would produce such a camera today, the cost of a sensor module would be from 600 and up to 1200 for the most complex ones of very low production... Thanks for posting ignorance (and speculation) Jerome! ...as I said to the start of this, I would prefer a conversation on the benefits, not a negative spirit of people who under (false) impressions that they turn to "self-knowledge" post ignorance as facts.
 
Having a British degree makes all the difference, Theo. I just have a couple of Aussie ones. They're of no value to anyone except for wall papering and wiping ones arse on. Was sooth saying part of yours as well? Your suggestion of my suggestion must have been pulled out of that same hat as your other predictions. And to 'ensure' of happenings in the future is certainly a part of a degree I would like to have included in my studies. Such certainty is beyond most of us lesser persons.
You're a young man, so I'll forgive you for your slight indiscretion into the world of wisdom. You see, I don't have to think about competition and customers. They are a thing of the past. Now I can rid myself of such consumer constraints and take my cute little point and press for a walk and enjoy the world that you painstakingly want to record and I can enjoy for real.
Good tip Tom if it works for you! I have that different opinion (on my 50 years) to serve photography till I leave this world, I prefer the inspiration from Bresson, Kappa, Adams and more than ...walking my dog around and find the "beauty of silence"... It's still "silence" (both on ears and brains) when I achieve creation! ...Thanks for the "wisdom" behind your advice, but I've seen different from people beyond your age... You see..., one can't follow all advises he gets!
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
I actually think the concept is rather handsome.

A great deal of the cost of a dSLR is in "mechanical stuff" - the interchangeable lens mount, mirror box, viewfinder, FP shutter, AF and AE detectors. battery holder, display panel, and so forth.

Let's imagine a new SLR-configuration camera in which the "carcass" cost, say USD 1500, with sensor modules in the range of USD 500 to USD 1200 (not including "really exotic" types). The user with a real need, over different tasks, for different sensor types could benefit considerably from this.

Would there be a big enough market to support such a thing? I have no idea. I asked the same question about a videotelephone for use on the public switched telephone network, and about cellular telephones with cameras in them.

Best regards,

Doug
 
I actually think the concept is rather handsome.

A great deal of the cost of a dSLR is in "mechanical stuff" - the interchangeable lens mount, mirror box, viewfinder, FP shutter, AF and AE detectors. battery holder, display panel, and so forth.

Let's imagine a new SLR-configuration camera in which the "carcass" cost, say USD 1500, with sensor modules in the range of USD 500 to USD 1200 (not including "really exotic" types). The user with a real need, over different tasks, for different sensor types could benefit considerably from this.

Would there be a big enough market to support such a thing? I have no idea. I asked the same question about a videotelephone for use on the public switched telephone network, and about cellular telephones with cameras in them.

Best regards,

Doug
Additionally to the above Doug... there is no reason why the sensor modules wouldn't be able to be shared with different type of cameras... Imagine a small mirrorless view camera (for FF imaging area) for instance, with bellows and full movements, that you could share your sensors with... I know thousands of photographers (especially pros) that would abandon their Sinar or ALPA for one of these.... (especially if the sensor was capable of really good live view). I still don't understand why cameras have to be sold with a certain "film" loaded to them.... Why can't one use his own choice of film? ...what kind of Fascism is this? Can you imagine people being forced to use "kodacolor 200" with their FMs ...just because that's what aunt Mary uses in her compact when she comes for vacations in the Greek islands...?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

Additionally to the above Doug... there is no reason why the sensor modules wouldn't be able to be shared with different type of cameras... Imagine a small mirrorless view camera (for FF imaging area) for instance, with bellows and full movements, that you could share your sensors with... I know thousands of photographers (especially pros) that would abandon their Sinar or ALPA for one of these.... (especially if the sensor was capable of really good live view).
Indeed.
I still don't understand why cameras have to be sold with a certain "film" loaded to them.... Why can't one use his own choice of film? ...what kind of Fascism is this? Can you imagine people being forced to use "kodacolor 200" with their FMs ...just because that's what aunt Mary uses in her compact when she comes for vacations in the Greek islands...?

You should have quit while you were ahead. We have others here to make silly and/or offensive politico-social metaphors.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Hi, Theodoros,

You should have quit while you were ahead. We have others here to make silly and/or offensive politico-social metaphors.

Best regards,

Doug
I really don't see what you find "silly and/or offensive politico-social metaphor"...? There is no metaphor in my comment ("aunt Mary" is a character to describe the typical camera user that thinks of photography as anything but creativity - she can be a great person, but her consuming power does affect photography) and there is certainly nothing political (and certainly not offensive) into calling "Fascism" if one would deny people to use different film than "Kodakolor 200" with their FMs....
I also don't see what offended you personally... was it "aunt Mary" or was it me using the word Fascism for a part of marketing actions? ...I can't see how any of the comments connect with you to be offended!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I've checked Jerome, thanks! ...I've checked with my friends (or ex-student mates in university) working in Israel... The most expensive sensor used on MFDB today is less than half than 1000 sold to the maker of the MFDB... What did you say?

I said that the price of the sensor alone should be compared to the price of the surrounding electronics. What did you say about the price of the surrounding electronics?

...FF cmos sensors cost around 100 or less to the makers Jerome... if some one would produce such a camera today, the cost of a sensor module would be from 600 and up to 1200 for the most complex ones of very low production... Thanks for posting ignorance (and speculation) Jerome!

You are welcome. While I am busy posting ignorant speculations, would you care to enlighten me on the number of units that could be manufactured and how that would influence the total cost of the final product?

1200 for a complex sensor module you said? That is very interesting.
 
I said that the price of the sensor alone should be compared to the price of the surrounding electronics. What did you say about the price of the surrounding electronics?

You are welcome. While I am busy posting ignorant speculations, would you care to enlighten me on the number of units that could be manufactured and how that would influence the total cost of the final product?

1200 for a complex sensor module you said? That is very interesting.
Why should the sensor be compared with something? ...it's the sensor that will be interchangeable, not the surrounding electronics... The requirement is how much will interchangeable sensors cost, ...no? Mind you that Sinar asks for 2350 to replace a sensor on a damaged 54lv of a friend of mine and that includes realigning, servicing and bringing it back to original spec... Nikon service here, asks for 900 to replace the sensor of a damaged D700 and bring it back to spec... and that is service, not a widely available sensor module sold on a retailer.

Number of units? I think if we are talking for a product in the D800 category (body/mech spec. wise) more than what D800 sells... If we are talking for a body in the D4 category... more than what D4 sells... do you see any reason why sales would fall from the current level for a same spec product but only with interchangeable sensor ability?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

I also don't see what offended you personally... was it "aunt Mary" or was it me using the word Fascism for a part of marketing actions? ...I can't see how any of the comments connect with you to be offended!
Nothing offended me personally. If you had offended me personally, I would have been quite clear about that!

My comments were in the spirit of "literary criticism".

Best regards,

Doug
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
And here I am thinking this is a scientific discussion and not a literary one. Anyway, for what purpose.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same door where in I went.

The above is literature.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Fahim,

And here I am thinking this is a scientific discussion and not a literary one. Anyway, for what purpose.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same door where in I went.

A wondrous passage. The tentmaker was wise indeed.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Hi, Fahim,



A wondrous passage. The tentmaker was wise indeed.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug

This tentmaker calculated the length of a year to 365.24219858156 days. Hubble and atomic clocks give a figure of 365.242190 days. An error in the sixth decimal place.

While taking a break from tent making he authored methods for solving cubic equations thru the intersection of a parabola with a circle. Equations that would only be understood a thousand years later.

While having tea, this tentmaker provided the solution to the binomial expansion. While his tent was incomplete he would gaze at the stars and author his critique of Euclid's theories of parallels. Later, much later Europe would use these to develop non-Euclidean geometry.

And while not tending to his camels, this tentmaker would author one of the most beautiful verses of poetry and philosophy.

I wish he would have been a tentmaker in reality. Who knows, he would have designed multistoried tents!
And spared us the misery of gazing at the concrete monstrosities of today.

Best regards.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Fahim,

This tentmaker calculated the length of a year to 365.24219858156 days. Hubble and atomic clocks give a figure of 365.242190 days. An error in the sixth decimal place.

While taking a break from tent making he authored methods for solving cubic equations thru the intersection of a parabola with a circle. Equations that would only be understood a thousand years later.

While having tea, this tentmaker provided the solution to the binomial expansion. While his tent was incomplete he would gaze at the stars and author his critique of Euclid's theories of parallels. Later, much later Europe would use these to develop non-Euclidean geometry.

And while not tending to his camels, this tentmaker would author one of the most beautiful verses of poetry and philosophy.

I wish he would have been a tentmaker in reality. Who knows, he would have designed multistoried tents!

And spared us the misery of gazing at the concrete monstrosities of today.
Truly wondrous!

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 
I would think it's better if we all discuss the topic though...

Can anyone enlighten us if a "true colour" (or tricolour as some prefer) sensor would require a dedicated processor? ...or is it that it can work with current ones (with different processing software of course)? My impression is that it can work since the first part of the software can be (told to be) ignored, (i.e. the interpolated colour creation from the Bayer Pattern and the rest of the processing should be relevant to what is now done in processing? ...Does anyone knows more on the matter?
 
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