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  #1  
Old February 21st, 2007, 01:49 PM
Edward Bussa Edward Bussa is offline
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I was just looking at the Members List, and I'm sure this has to be a topic of discussion for you guys, but it looks like nearly half or more new members have never posted a single message...

Why is this?
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  #2  
Old February 21st, 2007, 01:53 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Hi Ed,

A lot of people lurk. They glide through, again and again, gleaning what is good but don't speak. We have many more people lurking at any time than posting and many don't even log in!

Any ideas to bridge the gap would be welcomed!

Asher
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  #3  
Old February 21st, 2007, 01:56 PM
Edward Bussa Edward Bussa is offline
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I'm not sure I have the solution, but I thought a discussion might help.

Off-Topic - how do I use the multi-quote feature? I think I understand what it is supposed to do, but I don't see it documented anywhere... ???
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  #4  
Old February 21st, 2007, 01:56 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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What do you mean by the "multi-quote feature"?

Asher
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  #5  
Old February 21st, 2007, 01:58 PM
Edward Bussa Edward Bussa is offline
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Between the Quote and the Quick Reply button - the icon that changes from + to - when you click on it...
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  #6  
Old February 21st, 2007, 02:33 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Bussa View Post
Between the Quote and the Quick Reply button - the icon that changes from + to - when you click on it...
Bonjour

you may get some explanation here

Have a great day
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  #7  
Old February 21st, 2007, 05:29 PM
Anil Mungal Anil Mungal is offline
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Some reasons why people dont post (not just here, but in general):

- Afraid to voice their opinion which might provoke a flame war or personal attack (like on many other discussion sites)
- Someone else has voiced the same opinion you have, so no need in posting a "me too"
- Have nothing new or succinct to add to a thread
- Don't want the real info in a thread to get diluted/lost.
- Apathy
- Are happy with just reading the discussion, but not participating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Bussa View Post
I was just looking at the Members List, and I'm sure this has to be a topic of discussion for you guys, but it looks like nearly half or more new members have never posted a single message...

Why is this?
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  #8  
Old February 21st, 2007, 05:59 PM
Edward Bussa Edward Bussa is offline
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That's a good list.

It seems like we could do something about both Fear and Apathy AND I can identify some things that ARE being done.

The general tone here is gentle and thoughtful. That should help assuage fear.

The challenges and other queries that Asher and others pose can also help with Apathy.

Some comments about the challenges, they seem intimidating and confusing. When no one comments on photos I post, I tend to wonder why. Are people wary of offending someone / me ? I've found that I learn better when others are direct with me about what is good and bad.

Of course, its just their opinion, right?
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  #9  
Old February 21st, 2007, 09:55 PM
Charles L Webster Charles L Webster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anil Mungal View Post
Some reasons why people dont post (not just here, but in general):

- Afraid to voice their opinion which might provoke a flame war or personal attack (like on many other discussion sites)
- Someone else has voiced the same opinion you have, so no need in posting a "me too"
- Have nothing new or succinct to add to a thread
- Don't want the real info in a thread to get diluted/lost.
- Apathy
- Are happy with just reading the discussion, but not participating.
Given the high quality of talent here, mostly I lurk because I don't feel I can contribute in a meaningful way. I'm hear to listen and learn, not shoot of my mouth. If I think I can contribute to a thread in a meaningful manner, such as now, I'll jump in. But mostly I just lurk.
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  #10  
Old February 22nd, 2007, 02:55 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Charles,

Thanks for being here and speaking up. We value so much learning how to serve people better. We do have a lot of safe places to post such as Layback Cafe and Intoduction to Digital where there should be comfort.

I do hope it can be made easier to get over the inertia or reluctance.

While we're at it, what are you shooting with now and have you done anything interesting lately?

Cheers!

Asher
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  #11  
Old February 22nd, 2007, 03:14 AM
David Lowell David Lowell is offline
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"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt." - Galileo (also attributable to many other people in many different forms).
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  #12  
Old February 22nd, 2007, 03:31 AM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lowell View Post
"Tis better to be thought the fool and remain silent, than speak and remove all doubt." - Galileo (also attributable to many other people in many different forms).
The true mastery of a subject is marked by the ability to teach something. Not only can you do it and do it well, you can communicate this to others.

As to being a fool? Who cares. Sometimes it is nice just to be the center of attention. Beginners questions may get short direct answers. Sometimes the answer may be to read up. i.e., for a Canon EOS flash question the answer is likely here:

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ (a good read for Canon users)

There are lots of resources out there and sometimes new ones come along and a better solution arises. When these things are not discussed, then others who have similar questions do not get answers.

enjoy your day,

Sean (who is rather pro-education)
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  #13  
Old February 22nd, 2007, 12:13 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean DeMerchant View Post
The true mastery of a subject is marked by the ability to teach something. Not only can you do it and do it well, you can communicate this to others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean DeMerchant View Post
TThere are lots of resources out there and sometimes new ones come along and a better solution arises. When these things are not discussed, then others who have similar questions do not get answers.
When you ask a "dumb" question you really facilitate the learning of everyone.

There was, for example a simple question of getting a "linear file" from the 300D. This eventually raised the question of what does Adobe mean in the choice of "linear" in the ACR dialog box, "Curves"? Are we talking about gamma = 1.0? If not how does one get those files and what is the value of such output?

So whenever you feel reluctant to ask a too simple question or share a frustration with software or gear, step forward and share this issue.

If it doesn't belong in that particular forum, we move it anyway! Sometimes I'll answer provately, most times we get contributions that help everyone.

Posting is your only contribution to making this work and it's so appreciated.

Asher
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  #14  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 12:18 AM
Brian Ripley Brian Ripley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post

A lot of people lurk. They glide through, again and again, gleaning what is good but don't speak. We have many more people lurking at any time than posting and many don't even log in!

Any ideas to bridge the gap would be welcomed!

Asher
Calling people who have posted `New member' and those who have posted 100s of messages (irrespective it seems to me of helpfulness) `Senior member' is pretty discouraging.

As an early adopter I thought we would all be 'just' members (except the owner). No other site I
use practices such discrimination.
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  #15  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 06:01 AM
Edward Bussa Edward Bussa is offline
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Discrimination? That's an interesting viewpoint.

I look at it as recognition. I don't think it's meant to provide authority to anyone. Moderator's seem like they might have some authority but not Senior Members.

Also, I hadn't thought of it this way, but it could be a way of motivating (some) people to post more as well! That is, if you want the "status" of Senior Member, you can obtain it by just posting more.

Of course, hopefully your posts are helpful and positive and informational. Otherwise, it would just be spam! =D

I do see how the "New Member" title might cause you to wonder how your are being perceived. When a New Member posts, do Senior Members discount your message because you are "new" ? I guess I don't worry about it. I can't change how someone chooses to interpret my message. After people get to know me, they might discount my message just because of my name!

Plus, after all, I am new. Being new could also work the other way for me too. For instance, if I post something in the wrong place or break some other vague or unspoken rule, perhaps someone would see that I'm a new member and take a kinder, gentler approach and instruct me rather than criticise me!?

Or, someone could see that I'm a new member and decide to reply to a post simply because they want to encourage me.

Is that a valid, alternative viewpoint?
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  #16  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 10:43 AM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
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During a previous "life" I co-administered a large forum site. We would periodically become apprehensive about the ratio of the silent majority to active participants. We actually saw more people with 1 post than none, perhaps because that forum's nature attracted people wanting to ask a single question.

Ultimately we abandoned worrying about it. Silent visitors will sometimes come forward if they have a question or see a topic to which they feel they can constructively contribute. But i wouldn't worry about this stat; it's par for the Internet course.

Regarding titling, this is a feature of the software package that Asher uses. It's a very common feature to all such forum systems and can generally be controlled through the system's administrative preferences tables. It's a robotic feature, with forum administrators establishing pre-set title assignments based on post counts. Some sites disable this feature altogether while others enable members to create their own titles.

Surprisingly, again in that previous life, we found that members placed a great deal of stock in their "titles". For example, members with a great deal of experience and stature in the forum's subject field rather resented carrying the title "New Boot" until they reached some arbitrary number of posts. Others resented frequent, but vacuous, posters being awarded apparent seniority for their propensity for drivel.

Personally I really do not care a whit about this. But I do admit that assigning some type of seniority hierarchy based simply on number of posts is, indeed, a little nutty and carries some emotional weight with membership ranks. I think that registration date and total post count is enough to establish some degree of pseudo-seniority with the general membership. Titles should also be used to flag members who represent sponsors or who hold some other distinctive stature (or who may have a dull axe).

My pence.
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  #17  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 11:13 AM
Ray West Ray West is offline
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I think at the moment, if you post more than 100, you become a 'senior member'. I have/had no strong views on that, but as Ed mentioned, we tend to treat the new folk more gently. I don't know if it may be better to have 'new member' for say the first 5 posts, then just 'member' or no title after that. That would be enough to explain how to link to images, introductions, etc. for the new folk. I think a number of 0 posters registered last May/June, but it seems most new members now join and post immediately (a few just to sell gear, but they get removed...). Personally, I would remove all members who do not post at least once every three months or so.

Best wishes,

Ray
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  #18  
Old February 23rd, 2007, 01:20 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
During a previous "life" I co-administered a large forum site. We would periodically become apprehensive about the ratio of the silent majority to active participants. We actually saw more people with 1 post than none, perhaps because that forum's nature attracted people wanting to ask a single question.

Ultimately we abandoned worrying about it. Silent visitors will sometimes come forward if they have a question or see a topic to which they feel they can constructively contribute. But i wouldn't worry about this stat; it's par for the Internet course.

Regarding titling, this is a feature of the software package that Asher uses. It's a very common feature to all such forum systems and can generally be controlled through the system's administrative preferences tables. It's a robotic feature, with forum administrators establishing pre-set title assignments based on post counts. Some sites disable this feature altogether while others enable members to create their own titles.

Surprisingly, again in that previous life, we found that members placed a great deal of stock in their "titles". For example, members with a great deal of experience and stature in the forum's subject field rather resented carrying the title "New Boot" until they reached some arbitrary number of posts. Others resented frequent, but vacuous, posters being awarded apparent seniority for their propensity for drivel.

Personally I really do not care a whit about this. But I do admit that assigning some type of seniority hierarchy based simply on number of posts is, indeed, a little nutty and carries some emotional weight with membership ranks. I think that registration date and total post count is enough to establish some degree of pseudo-seniority with the general membership. Titles should also be used to flag members who represent sponsors or who hold some other distinctive stature (or who may have a dull axe).

My pence.
Brian,

Your discomfort with titles is mine too.

I have quoted in entirety since Ken' post is exactly the truth and how I feel.

We are always improving. I like Ray's suggestion. We can alter titles and this is a good thing to reconsider. In the next months we have a lot of improvements. Send me suggestions provately to keep on topic!

I would encourage anyone who is not sure about the wisdom of a question, worried about sticking their neck out to do this:

PM one of the moderators. We are always available somewhere on the planet LOL!Check time and location. If Ray or Nicolas are up Euro time, ask them, myself or Nikolai Pacific time and so forth.

Asher
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  #19  
Old July 12th, 2007, 09:10 AM
Vivek Khanzode Vivek Khanzode is offline
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Here is another reason to add to Anil's list:
-- Photography subjects are intensely personal in nature.

As is my case, I don't want to share the pictures which are mostly of my kids, in an open forum due to some personal circumstances. This in no way implies that I am not interested in photography of course (which is my main reason to visit this site). Actually I have never _ever_ felt 'fear' or any manifestations there of on this site.

I don't have any opinion on the 'New member' debate because I think that there are pros and cons of both options (seniority based on number of posts vs no hierarchy). It certainly does not bother me that I am a 'new member' here.

-- V
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  #20  
Old July 12th, 2007, 11:34 AM
Anil Mungal Anil Mungal is offline
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I personally don't even notice the "new member"/"senior member" designations. If I want to get a better understanding of a poster and his work, I check the information in their profile and any web links they may have. This gives me some context to their posting.
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  #21  
Old September 11th, 2007, 09:50 AM
Greg Rogers Greg Rogers is offline
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Nothing quite like my first post here being in a thread dead for 7 months.

Interesting discussion. My 2 cents is that "lurkers" may be unduly criticized in some previous posts. Gathering information without providing any is not a breach of social norms. As to those lurkers (such as me for the last several days, anyway) who join yet do not post, perhaps they (we?) join as a compliment to the forum, it's owner and active participants, yet choose to remain silent. (as opposed to those who luck as guests and never bother to join). That's why I joined, until I feel confident enough to post more regularly.

I look at this phenomenon as being akin to a child jumping (or diving) into a swimming pool for the first time. They tend to do it when they are quite good and ready, and not before. <smirk>

I tend to be on the "don't really care for it" side of the fence on the "title" issue (new member, senior member). As somebody stated above, post count works. OTOH, I can't see that it hurts anything, and although it might provide a bit of an intimidation factor to new posters (like me), I'd sway easily to the other side of the fence and say that the "senior member" designation is perhaps a nice token of appreciation for more active posters.

Hope my thoughts provide some insight...from the perspective of a somewhat apprehensive newbie. (no need for reassurances, btw.........I can already see what a friendly and civilized place this is!

Thanks to Asher and all members for providing this forum. I am liking what I see so far!
-Greg
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  #22  
Old September 11th, 2007, 12:26 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Rogers View Post
...
Hope my thoughts provide some insight...from the perspective of a somewhat apprehensive newbie. (no need for reassurances, btw.........I can already see what a friendly and civilized place this is!

Thanks to Asher and all members for providing this forum. I am liking what I see so far!
-Greg
Spot on Greg! Knowing you from our other photographical home for quite some years now, I am very happy that you've joined and de-lurked. Welcome :-).

Cheers,
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  #23  
Old September 11th, 2007, 01:13 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles L Webster View Post
Given the high quality of talent here, mostly I lurk because I don't feel I can contribute in a meaningful way. I'm hear to listen and learn, not shoot of my mouth. If I think I can contribute to a thread in a meaningful manner, such as now, I'll jump in. But mostly I just lurk.
Chas is a photographer with a lot of talent. I look at his portfolio for inspiration.

Me, on the other hand, am a newbie hack and I shoot my mouth off at any provocation. Methinks members who don't post may be far less annoying than hacks (me) who suffer from "verbalitis."
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  #24  
Old September 11th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Nikolai Sklobovsky Nikolai Sklobovsky is offline
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Default Fwiw

In another, much smaller forum (which I also have an honor to moderate), we have kinda rule of thumb that any new account with zero posts is deleted after a month of silence.
I'm not saying we should do it here at OPF, simply sharing another workable modus operandi.
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  #25  
Old September 11th, 2007, 03:28 PM
Kathy Rappaport Kathy Rappaport is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
Methinks members who don't post may be far less annoying than hacks (me) who suffer from "verbalitis."
Rachel,

I think verbalitis is a good thing. I love to Chat.

OPF is a community which requires participation to succeed as a community. If we don't post, we won't have much of a community. Asher can foster our communication and encourage it, but, if we choose not to put up a word, some encouragement, an image then how else can we remain that community?

A newbie or a well seasoned photographer with years of experience can learn something new just by being here too. But you have to partcipate to make i t happen!
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  #26  
Old September 11th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Greg Rogers Greg Rogers is offline
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Thanks Cem, and thanks to all for having me. In a horror of horrors, I find myself out of town for night and I forgot my laptop AC adapter, so I won't be spouting off much for at least 24 hours.
-Greg
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  #27  
Old September 11th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
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Thanks, Kathy. I often worry I'm violating the unwritten community "rules" by talking so much. It's just that I'm so excited about photography I can't seem to shut up.
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  #28  
Old September 11th, 2007, 07:20 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel Foster View Post
Thanks, Kathy. I often worry I'm violating the unwritten community "rules" by talking so much. It's just that I'm so excited about photography I can't seem to shut up.
Hi Rachel,

It all balances out! If you have some issue in photography, lenses, insurance, filters or getting a print not to flake, then be sure a score of others have had or are having the same issue.

In OPF we encourage you to become familiar with the idea that Layback Cafe, is exactly like its name, for relaxing chat.

If you choose to post in a technical forum, make sure it is related to the overal intent of the place. Don't worry, we'll move anything else to a proper home!

Try to photograph new subjects every day and return to familiar ones to improve based on your new ideas and, with luck, help from us too. Then post. We like to see your enthusiasm especially when expressed in photography. Still your comments are very welcome anywhere. After all this is a forum. We do need speech!

If it's contraversial and might offend, we'll move it to the appropriate part of the forum in "Uptown" as we encourage expression but don't want to offend people's feelings or beliefs.

So don't worry about talking a lot, you make sure to make us laugh once in a while, or we'll get a contract on you!

Asher

Still, we don't allow demeaning or humiliating people! That's in the TOS!
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  #29  
Old September 11th, 2007, 07:29 PM
Rachel Foster Rachel Foster is offline
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The only humiliating I do is of myself....snort! I figure if I can laugh at myself, I'll have laughter in my life daily. Hourly. Ok, every 5 minutes. Snort.

Thanks, Asher, I became concerned when people began expressing a reluctance to post because of the high level of talent. As usual, I jumped in with both feet and was worried I violated forum standards.

It's also reassuring to know that when (notice not "if".... I know myself pretty well) I mess up someone will move my misplaced post to it's proper place.

Again, thank you for clarifying.
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  #30  
Old September 20th, 2007, 08:21 AM
Steve Saunders Steve Saunders is offline
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On my own humble motorcycle board I have recently added a note in the registration form telling newbies that if they don't post at least once in the first month (even just to introduce themselves) we will delete their accounts. Part of the reason is that these members use up some forum names that actual posters would like to have.
A better solution I'm looking at is having newly registered members in a Newbie part of the forum with limited access until they post (ie no Gallery use, no signatures, no use of the For Sale area etc)and once they post they will have full rights. This may also helps to catch spammers that slip through the usual precautions.
I think out of 8500 members, 2500 of the oldest ones have never posted and at Christmas I will do a huge prune of these members. I may send them a message first before I bin their accounts.
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