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Religion is getting to me.

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Tom dinning

Registrant*
This isn't art but its a sort of arty farty mistake. I got back from my class the other night and found this in the CF card. At first I thought it was a gremlin, then a religious experience or vision or I was drunk. Then I realised what I had done (silly me) and cropped it a bit, smoothed out the colours and hey presto! I should make mistakes more often.
Its not something I would purposely go for myself. All a bit 'over the mantle piece' surrounded with icons and candles or displayed in a card shop with some inane to accompany it like 'May all your Christmas's come at once'
But, ****, there are plenty of people out there with bad taste.


_DSC0791 by tom.dinning, on Flickr​
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Nah. I like a bit of colour in my religion. Nothing so black and white for me. This has a bit of a cult feel about it, though. Not big on the cults. Scientology and that sort of bullshit. Who'd believe there are people out there who think we come from outer space.
Beam me up Scotty.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Maybe the same people who insist the world was created 5000 years ago on a Mon-Sat?

A very nice image, Tom, with or without the religious content.

So what do we tell children? We give them magic of Mickey Mouse and Merlin and maybe Moby Dick too! Same difference! All part of human culture to simplify things. We tell stories to fill the voids of our ignorance and free time.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Maybe the same people who insist the world was created 5000 years ago on a Mon-Sat?

Jarmo,

The contention was Sunday to Friday, LOL!! The Romans switched the 7th day from Sat to Sunday to distinguish Christianity from the parent faith.

"Though the majority observance of Christian Sabbath is as Sunday rest, this development was gradual. In the 2nd century, the observance of a corporate day of worship on the first day (Sunday, or Saturday night) had become commonplace as attested in the patristic writings. For such worshipers the term "Lord's Day" came to mean the first day or Sunday. From the 4th century onwards, Sunday worship has also taken on the observance of Sunday rest in some Christian traditions, such as the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries. Among these "first-day Sabbatarians", Sunday worship and/or rest eventually became synonymous with a first-day Christian Sabbath." Wikipedia


Asher
 

Jarmo Juntunen

Well-known member
Jarmo,

The contention was Sunday to Friday, LOL!! The Romans switched the 7th day from Sat to Sunday to distinguish Christianity from the parent faith.

"Though the majority observance of Christian Sabbath is as Sunday rest, this development was gradual. In the 2nd century, the observance of a corporate day of worship on the first day (Sunday, or Saturday night) had become commonplace as attested in the patristic writings. For such worshipers the term "Lord's Day" came to mean the first day or Sunday. From the 4th century onwards, Sunday worship has also taken on the observance of Sunday rest in some Christian traditions, such as the Puritans of the 16th and 17th centuries. Among these "first-day Sabbatarians", Sunday worship and/or rest eventually became synonymous with a first-day Christian Sabbath." Wikipedia


Asher

Asher, true, yet it's still a six day miracle! I, like most Europeans, tell my kids about the bearded guy who rewards people if they're nice. Quite a similarity come to think of it.
 

Charlotte Thompson

Well-known member
Tom

I for one super like the image- and I don't think it was a mistake-
Whatever one takes away from this I find it a mistake made in grace-

Charlotte-
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Tom

I for one super like the image- and I don't think it was a mistake-
Whatever one takes away from this I find it a mistake made in grace-

Charlotte-

Whatever you think, Charlotte, it was a mistake.
I had been demonstrating to my students the function of the multiple exposure mode in their cameras and forgot to switch it off. We went to the beach to shoot a silhouette and one of the students stood on the horizon and I told her to do something with her arms. She held them up as shown. I fired off a long exposure and as she walked off I fired off a few more. They all appeared on the one frame as seen here. I had also switched the camera to manual focus and guessed the focal range because it was too dark to see what was going on. The shots turned out blurred. So what you see is a result of a series of errors on my part. The only addition I made was in ps by creating another layer and adding a bit of vertical movement blur and putting the sun in.
 

John Wolf

New member
I left this forum about six months ago, mainly turned off by what I perceived as the intellectual arrogrance and condescension of a few members. I dropped by today after this long absence, and the first thread I open is this one, full of ridicule of the spiritual values of others as "bullshit" and "Mickey Mouse." What are you guys, like fifteen years old?

This kind of mocking of others' beliefs would not be tolderated in any respectable American workplace, yet here it is, practiced freely and with shared delight. Asher, as a professional yourself and forum owner, I would hope you would seek a higher standard. It is especially distressing because among this very community are dedicated members whom we all know to be deeply religious. It's insulting to say they are "filling voids" and "ignorant."

Call me over-sensitive, but there's no denying this forum -- any community -- is only enriched by courtesy, tolerance and respect for differing viewpoints. I could care less if you believe what I or anyone here believes. But other than some petty ego-gratification, what does it serve to mock views we don't share or understand, especially those as close to the heart as faith?

Anyway, if's farewell for me again, this time for good. It's unfortunate because I admire the work and attitudes of many here.

John
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I left this forum about six months ago, mainly turned off by what I perceived as the intellectual arrogrance and condescension of a few members. I dropped by today after this long absence, and the first thread I open is this one, full of ridicule of the spiritual values of others as "bullshit" and "Mickey Mouse." What are you guys, like fifteen years old?

This kind of mocking of others' beliefs would not be tolderated in any respectable American workplace, yet here it is, practiced freely and with shared delight. Asher, as a professional yourself and forum owner, I would hope you would seek a higher standard. It is especially distressing because among this very community are dedicated members whom we all know to be deeply religious. It's insulting to say they are "filling voids" and "ignorant."

Call me over-sensitive, but there's no denying this forum -- any community -- is only enriched by courtesy, tolerance and respect for differing viewpoints. I could care less if you believe what I or anyone here believes. But other than some petty ego-gratification, what does it serve to mock views we don't share or understand, especially those as close to the heart as faith?

Anyway, if's farewell for me again, this time for good. It's unfortunate because I admire the work and attitudes of many here.

John


So what do we tell children? We give them magic of Mickey Mouse and Merlin and maybe Moby Dick too! Same difference! All part of human culture to simplify things. We tell stories to fill the voids of our ignorance and free time.



John,

It's necessary for us to relate to those who have different views from us and that's how we move forward. Here at OPF we have to tolerate/accept so many conflicting stories/accounts of "the word". It can't be that the tales told in the monasteries of Nepal, the orthodox Yeshivas in Jerusalem or the seminaries in Rome are all the absolute exclusive truth. As long as a Catholic monk, a Janist or animist stays in his world and prays, everything is self-consistant. But if any religious person ventures into an open global society, then thunderstorms of culture clash must be expected. Just as one person treasures his or her beliefs, others have natural disdain for some or any such notions. All these approaches are viable here, belief and disbelief! It seems paradoxical, but it's the only way of functioning. One should be strong enough in one's own core values not to be threatened by other folks dismissal of what we might consider holy. We do draw the line on incitement to racial hatred or humiliating others here, but otherwise, there's freedom of speech.

We celebrate each others good lives, identity and values, but don't have to buy into each others cultural stories, however holy they might be.

Asher
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Where did the wolf come from? I think he bit me on the leg. Ouch!
It seems strange that we are the ones that we are the ogres here once again, yet I have a feeling John has just spat on our beliefs with something green and vile.
Never mind, I'll go cheers myself up with a rerun of 'Life of Brian'.
 
I left this forum about six months ago, mainly turned off by what I perceived as the intellectual arrogrance and condescension of a few members. I dropped by today after this long absence, and the first thread I open is this one, full of ridicule of the spiritual values of others as "bullshit" and "Mickey Mouse." What are you guys, like fifteen years old?

This kind of mocking of others' beliefs would not be tolderated in any respectable American workplace, yet here it is, practiced freely and with shared delight. Asher, as a professional yourself and forum owner, I would hope you would seek a higher standard. It is especially distressing because among this very community are dedicated members whom we all know to be deeply religious. It's insulting to say they are "filling voids" and "ignorant."

Call me over-sensitive, but there's no denying this forum -- any community -- is only enriched by courtesy, tolerance and respect for differing viewpoints. I could care less if you believe what I or anyone here believes. But other than some petty ego-gratification, what does it serve to mock views we don't share or understand, especially those as close to the heart as faith?

Anyway, if's farewell for me again, this time for good. It's unfortunate because I admire the work and attitudes of many here.

John


Oh good lord.....



It's called sarcasm. Well I think it is.


Either way we are not in the workplace. I see this as more of the local pub.

You know where everyone knows your name...
 

John Wolf

New member
Guys, I really wish you would give my post some thought, rather than simply reacting flippantly or dismissing the offensive language as sarcastic fun. Would you make these comments here about someone who was Jewish, or African American, or a woman? Or would you do so and explain them away as harmless sarcasm? Which, incidentally, is the standard justification of bigots. Yet faith is fair game.

And if I labeled your photographs bullshit or Mickey Mouse, would that be accepted here? I would hope not. It certainly would not be considered acceptable on other forums I frequent.

We're not talking about truth or untruth - spirituality is belief, just as is disbelief in spirituality. That's not the point. The point is one of basic human decency. Respect for others, who they are and what they value. Is that really so hard to understand or accept? Can't you at least try to understand that it really does matter, and it really is offensive, to some people of faith. In a small, close community like this, that alone should be sufficient reason to abstain.

John
 
Guys, I really wish you would give my post some thought, rather than simply reacting flippantly or dismissing the offensive language as sarcastic fun. Would you make these comments here about someone who was Jewish, or African American, or a woman? Or would you do so and explain them away as harmless sarcasm? Which, incidentally, is the standard justification of bigots. Yet faith is fair game.

And if I labeled your photographs bullshit or Mickey Mouse, would that be accepted here? I would hope not. It certainly would not be considered acceptable on other forums I frequent.

We're not talking about truth or untruth - spirituality is belief, just as is disbelief in spirituality. That's not the point. The point is one of basic human decency. Respect for others, who they are and what they value. Is that really so hard to understand or accept? Can't you at least try to understand that it really does matter, and it really is offensive, to some people of faith. In a small, close community like this, that alone should be sufficient reason to abstain.

John

Yes, I understand.

Just as offensive as someone pushing their religious dogma on me...
 

Chris Calohan

Well-known member
Regardless of a pub setting or within the sanctity of some chapel on a high hill, the desire to express oneself in a manner which may ridicule someone else's beliefs is as commonplace as apple pie and cheese.

My feelings Mr. Wolf, are you are quite insecure about your beliefs to the point you feels you must defend yourself against the words of others. My suggestion is if you have a deep, abiding belief in something spiritual, then ride that pony until either you die or the horse kicks, but leave the rest of us to speak as we please, to believe as we please.

Respect for others beliefs...okay, fine, but the door opens both ways. At the end of the night, we all go home with our own beliefs intact, wake up fuzzy-headed and do it all again the next time we gather. It is the nature of man to argue about politics and religion and the nature of photographers to discuss photography.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
....

Yet faith is fair game.

....

The point is one of basic human decency. Respect for others, who they are and what they value. Is that really so hard to understand or accept? Can't you at least try to understand that it really does matter, and it really is offensive, to some people of faith.
...
John

John, you make ample sense to me. But you have read the replies of others too. I shall leave it here, for the time being.

Let me make it very clear, anyone ridicules any faith..any faith..i shall kick you in the teeth. Speak what you like, but show disrespect to others, ridicule someone else's values and beliefs, I shall disrobe you amongst others.

Respect and you shall get it in spades from me. But take a soft spoken person's justifiable request for showing respect to others and make a parody of it...you have not heard the last from me.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
This isn't art but its a sort of arty farty mistake. I got back from my class the other night and found this in the CF card. At first I thought it was a gremlin, then a religious experience or vision or I was drunk. Then I realised what I had done (silly me) and cropped it a bit, smoothed out the colours and hey presto! I should make mistakes more often.
Its not something I would purposely go for myself. All a bit 'over the mantle piece' surrounded with icons and candles or displayed in a card shop with some inane to accompany it like 'May all your Christmas's come at once'
But, ****, there are plenty of people out there with bad taste.


_DSC0791 by tom.dinning, on Flickr​


Well, John,




You may have your mind closed at this point, but just in case there's still a crack to let the light in, (and for the record) I offer you this:-



I had to look at everything again and try to discover where the offense was. Now I see that you might feel that there's a shape resembling a crucifixion on the beach. It hadn't occurred to me before!!!!

Do you know who is writing these comments? It's an Australian. They'll insult their closest friends with profanities and that means they love you! They're are even worse on themselves; called self-depreciating humor and Tom's a natural at it. He's not insulting you, he's being introspective and having a vision on the beach! It's as if he had a vision. He's just being poetic and not meaning to be a lout or hooligan as you seem to think.

The sign of the cross is part of plains Indian cultural totem pole symbolism and was leveraged by Belgian Catholic missionaries to connect with and convert the folk. The cross is part of most cultures, Jewish, Muslim or whatever. We see the shape everywhere and the symbolism is behind the vision. To crucify someone is now part of the language of revenge and unfair punishment in the workplace and there it does not refer to religion at all!! Folk who use it are not knowingly referring to Christ, just the unfair punishment!!

There's a picture of a lone tree on the brow of a hill, here in OPF, and I referred to Christ's crucifixion, and discussed it at length as the shape buttressed the feeling of the abandonment and starkness of the tree with two outstretched branches. I'm Jewish, but the symbolism is part of all cultures now. (I used to teach the headmaster's classes in New Testament in return for private French lessons when I was in high school in the UK, and I cannot believe it myself, LOL!)

Tom would not plan to hurt your feelings. He'd call you something shameful, disgusting and awful, if he really liked you, and buy you a beer! He's a bloody Australian and that's how they do things when they're going at full steam! All language is metaphorical, even "up" and "down". I wouldn't let Tom's comments offend you. However, if Tom was next to you and he saw with his own eyes how taken back you'd be, he's express regret, otherwise, he's be miles down the track with not the slightest concept of any deep pain you'd felt.

This is very different from someone saying "dirty Jew" to me on the way to school. They mean it and that's why I there was a policeman escorting us every day when I was a small child. Same as the spitting and frightening of little Catholic girls in Ireland, shouting at them, "Mary lovers!" as the kids were forced to to walk through a gauntlet of hostile Orange Protestant women. The neatly dressed marched bravely on children marched in twos and that sight broken my heart. It's etched in my mind and that nightmare will never leave.

You may have used the name of the holiest place in Islam, for some oases of utopian shopping where everyone makes their destination. That's the place where one can shop and buy anything you want, nothing is missing, nothing is out of stock or unavailable. But then you'd cause far deeper pain and fury than Tom did here and no amount of explanation would remove it. But that's the downside of the use of words in cultures that are strange to each other.

BTW, we do have beautiful work on the cross too.

here, or even here and many other places too! Why not stick around and celebrate these and ignore the odd rain drops that get in your face?

Look at this last image and you will understand how the crucifix has embedded itself in our common heritage.

Asher
 

John Wolf

New member
Chris, commonplace does not mean decent or desirable. I would hope we all aspire to more than common.

Jake, I hope you're not suggesting I'm pushing dogma on you. Nothing is my remarks should lead to that conclusion. Simply a plea for basic human regard.

Fahim, Yes, I read all the posts. Of course, anyone is free to say any thing here. But sometimes kindness and consideration supercede our clever impulses to impress others. Honestly, isn't that what sarcasm is? Think about it. What purpose does dissing your, my, or anyone else's beliefs serve in this forum? And would not everyone's experience here be better without it? I think so.

Anyway, I've made my point as best I can. I'll split now. No ill-will. Just an understanding that this forum is not a place I care to spend my time.

John
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Sorry, to hear that John. I wish you the best wherever you are.
BTW, loved your series from India!!

I shall stay here..if for no other reason then to keep an eye on the intelligent agnostics and atheists that
parade around here in the guise of artists.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nah. I like a bit of colour in my religion. Nothing so black and white for me. This has a bit of a cult feel about it, though. Not big on the cults. Scientology and that sort of bullshit. Who'd believe there are people out there who think we come from outer space.
Beam me up Scotty.

Well, Fahim, are we going to give Scientology, this, (arguably major business), venture the same deep respect as Islam and Christianity? It's based on the made up premise by L Ron Hubbard that aliens started the human race some 3 trillion years ago and he even knows the name of the leader. No authority, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Scientist can even consider that to be seriously considered. Furthermore, they measure people's responses with a so-called e-meter and have kids on the streets bringing people in for classes and taking their money for this in a giantly-successful scheme, better than Herbalife.

Is Tom wrong about Scientology? Yes he's blunt and rude, but is he wrong? Wouldn't you tell a child who was being seduced into that belief that it was exactly what Tom characterized? Of course your vocabulary might be more refined, but essentially you'd say the same thing! The difficulty is that if we tolerate that, then where does it end? So it's a dilemma! for sure we're not going to be perfectly politically correct and open our mouths. Just we have to be nice to everyone here!

But the fact i've realized is that people here get insulted every time.

Asher
 

Chris Calohan

Well-known member
I think one of my initial responses to both John and Fahim is the use of the word: faith. Only in the second and third explanations or decriptions of the word (at least in the English Webster's dictionary) is the word connected with a religious deity or a "God."

In its first iteration it is always to a person or a promise. I am neither releigious nor agnostic, nor Jewish, Bhuddist, Hindu or Muslim yet I try to live my life as if I belonged to each. To deliberately ridicule is the basest form of insult. It is done by bullies who, for the most part are intellectually challenged. I always told students that fighting was a way for stupid people to express themselves and would say the same about someone who would deliver a deliberate sarcasm bomb just to be mean.

However, in the course of a conversation, when religion and politics (always politics) arise, there are always going to be dissenting remarks and occasionally, namecalling...it is silly, likely verging close to stupid but I've never read anything on here that decries anything other than an occasional offhand comment which expresses the author's own beliefs. The comment to an aspect of someone else's religion being bullshit was his comment from his mouth but it wasn't a directed comment which said: "hey, you can't possibly believe that bullshit." That would have been a deliberate ridicule and no, it could not be tolerated by any forum.

We're all beating the proverbial dead horse. Time to move on with or without Mr. Wolf.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
As I said Asher, people can believe what they want. I might disagree ( vehemently at times ), but they can say it so long as they do not encroach on my rights.

Believe or do not believe in god or religion or anything..not my business. Agnostic or atheist, not my business.

Let me give a simple example to set the record straight.. so that there is no further misunderstanding...your freedom ends when it starts to encroach and insult my beliefs and values.
And specifically anything that is insulting to the Abrahamic Faiths...any and all of them. I hope that is clear
ad specific.

And other lesser faiths, without naming them all. Teachers and others are intelligent enough around here to know which are the prominent faiths in this world.

I have shown tolerance too, to those that profess no religious faith, or cannot make up their minds.
Accord us of the Major Faiths the same courtesy.

And Asher, I am surprised you have to use belonging to specific world regions as an excuse for discourtesy in language.

There is no excuse for using coarse language. in a normal conversation..except a deficient childhood or lack of proper parenting.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
And Asher, I am surprised you have to use belonging to specific world regions as an excuse for discourtesy in language.

Fahim,

That, was never my intent. Sorry it comes out like that! I didn't realize that I was crossing any line there. I think you know me better than that.

My friend was imprisoned in the bank vault of the Jack Tar Harrison Hotel in Clearwater Florida for having spoken out against the sect he once belonged to. It's not Abrahamic, but a "World Religion" as you call it. So am I allowed to call them a cult? Should I give dignity to their E-meter? Where do we draw the boundary?


_DSC0791 by tom.dinning, on Flickr​

Back to this picture. When I first saw it, there was a scene with a lone figure at one with the beauty of the dawn. That's spiritual to me and that's the beginning and end to it all, no disrespect, however Tom packages it. He's just the way he is! Believe me, there's a good heart beneath the prickly outside he like to show off in! Sorry for the hurt feelings!

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Fahim,

That, was never my intent. Sorry it comes out like that! I didn't realize that I was crossing any line there. I think you know me better than that.

My friend was imprisoned in the bank vault of the Jack Tar Harrison Hotel in Clearwater Florida for having spoken out against the sect he once belonged to. It's not Abrahamic, but a "World Religion" as you call it. So am I allowed to call them a cult? Should I give dignity to their E-meter? Where do we draw the boundary?

.....


Asher

Of course I know you better than that. That's why I remarked!

I would expect and hope that people that visit this forum and/or are members here are intelligent and educated enough to decipher what ' faith, religion, cult ' is in the context of the language used.

' Faith ' is different than ' faith ' which is different than ' Religion ' which is different than ' religion ' and
' cult ' is different too. And calling something a ' World Religion ' does not make it so...but there are a few
Faiths which can rightfully claim that significance.

And please stop making excuses for others. They are not tit sucking babies to be coddled. Anyone throws **** around, shall have dung rubbed in their faces.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Of course I know you better than that. That's why I remarked!

I would expect and hope that people that visit this forum and/or are members here are intelligent and educated enough to decipher what ' faith, religion, cult ' is in the context of the language used.

' Faith ' is different than ' faith ' which is different than ' Religion ' which is different than ' religion ' and
' cult ' is different too. And calling something a ' World Religion ' does not make it so...but there are a few
Faiths which can rightfully claim that significance.

And please stop making excuses for others. They are not tit sucking babies to be coddled. Anyone throws **** around, shall have dung rubbed in their faces.

and that's well said!

I'm now closing the thread as all arguments have been heard and I don't want to insult anyone else by my choice of words or over-arching defense of bad language!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief


_DSC0791 by tom.dinning, on Flickr​

Now to finally address this picture's worth as it should be done, (according to one of my favorite photographers here), by it's visual impression and impact. On these counts it works. There's a soft atmospheric scene on a beach of with a slight figure seemingly celebrating life.

This image is positive and hopeful and would be welcome on my wall!

Asher
 
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