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Mirrorless Pro-Class Cameras with Interchangeable Lenses Sony A7, A7R and similar high end cameras that can serve as the sole cameras on Pro-event assignments.

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  #1  
Old October 20th, 2015, 11:10 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Default New mirrorless 24x36 camera from Leica: SL (Typ 601)

Leica announced a new camera system with a 24x36 sensor:

https://no-detour.leica-camera.com/en/

Same bayonet as the T system (Typ 701). Surprisingly large and heavy for a mirrorless system, here with the 24-90 "kit" zoom (image dpreview):

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  #2  
Old October 21st, 2015, 02:36 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Leica announced a new camera system with a 24x36 sensor:

https://no-detour.leica-camera.com/en/

Same bayonet as the T system (Typ 701). Surprisingly large and heavy for a mirrorless system, here with the 24-90 "kit" zoom (image dpreview):

You shouldn't trust your wife with your $7450 camera and $4750 lens!

I am sure Leica has done a first class job. That viewfinder appears very high resolution at 4MP.

Asher
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Old October 21st, 2015, 07:57 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
You shouldn't trust your wife with your $7450 camera and $4750 lens!

Unless you are married to a woman like Annie Leibovitz, Kate Geraghty, Ellen von Unwerth, Shadi Ghadirian, Dorothea Lange, Vanessa Beecroft, Rineke Dijkstra, Sally Mann, Mary Ellen Mark, Carol Jerrems, Candida Höfer, Leni Riefenstahl, Rinko Kawauchi, Isabel Muñoz, Margaret Bourke-White, Imogen Cunningham, Deanne Fitzmaurice, Barbara Morgan, Lisette Model, Hilla Becher, Annemarie Schwarzenbach, Julia Margaret Cameron, Helena Christensen, Gisèle Freund, Tsuneko Sasamoto, Sarah Moon, Bettina Rheims, Agnès Varda, Nan Goldin, Gertrude Käsebier, Louise Dahl-Wolfe, Véronique de Viguerie, Hiromi Toshikawa, Cindy Sherman, Mary Fitzpatrick, Gillian Wearing, Diane Arbus, Berenice Abbott or Constance Fox Talbot, etc...

Why shouldn't you trust a woman with a camera and a lens? Are you afraid she would hit you on the head with it? That would indeed be a real concern with that particular camera, which is manufactured out of a solid block of aluminium alloy.

Sarcasm aside, Asher, you might want to lend one of your camera to your wife or one of these young female models you sometimes present here. You may be pleasantly surprised.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 09:10 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Jerome,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Unless you are married to a woman like Annie Leibovitz, Kate Geraghty, Ellen von Unwerth, Shadi Ghadirian, Dorothea Lange, Vanessa Beecroft, Rineke Dijkstra, Sally Mann, Mary Ellen Mark, Carol Jerrems, Candida Höfer, Leni Riefenstahl, Rinko Kawauchi, Isabel Muñoz, Margaret Bourke-White, Imogen Cunningham, Deanne Fitzmaurice, Barbara Morgan, Lisette Model, Hilla Becher, Annemarie Schwarzenbach, Julia Margaret Cameron, Helena Christensen, Gisèle Freund, Tsuneko Sasamoto, Sarah Moon, Bettina Rheims, Agnès Varda, Nan Goldin, Gertrude Käsebier, Louise Dahl-Wolfe, Véronique de Viguerie, Hiromi Toshikawa, Cindy Sherman, Mary Fitzpatrick, Gillian Wearing, Diane Arbus, Berenice Abbott or Constance Fox Talbot, etc...
Or even Carla Red Fox.

Or Jacqueline Bouvier (later Kennedy, later Onassis), of whom Carla says, "I don't know how she managed to handle that 4 × 5 Graflex" (Carla preferring to never schlepp anything bigger than the 3-1/4 × 4-1/4 version, and preferably the 2-1/4 × 3-1/4).

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #5  
Old October 21st, 2015, 11:36 AM
Jim Dockery Jim Dockery is offline
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That picture makes it look like a fake giant camera. Obviously it isn't, but I can't imagine who would want to handle or haul that monster around.
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  #6  
Old October 21st, 2015, 12:46 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Hi, Jerome,


Or even Carla Red Fox.

Or Jacqueline Bouvier (later Kennedy, later Onassis), of whom Carla says, "I don't know how she managed to handle that 4 × 5 Graflex" (Carla preferring to never schlepp anything bigger than the 3-1/4 × 4-1/4 version, and preferably the 2-1/4 × 3-1/4).

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
Obviously, we all know Jacqueline Bouvier, who worked for the Washington Times. Is Carla Red Fox the Carla we know through your photographs? Apparently, she is. Congratulation, I did not realise you married a photographer.
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  #7  
Old October 21st, 2015, 12:49 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Dockery View Post
That picture makes it look like a fake giant camera. Obviously it isn't, but I can't imagine who would want to handle or haul that monster around.
Who is going to buy that camera is a very good question.

This being said, I had a quick look at the gallery of photographs on dpreview, and the 24-90 zoom looks exceptional indeed.
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  #8  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:07 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Indeed the camera looks very large compared to the size of the hands.

When I saw this fantastic and pricy camera I asked myself how will it compare to the Sony A7R...

Mirrorless cameras are the future aren't they ?
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  #9  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:14 PM
jake klein jake klein is offline
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Is anyone else thinking that this is just a stepping stone to a Medium format mirror-less? Maybe that is why it is so big.
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  #10  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:14 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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I would be happy with the camera. Just would need to sell a lot of stuff to pay for it. I am certain that the Leica glass will be exceptional. Right now, I am out on a limb having spent some $20,000 on the exhibition in May and am delivering a 32 ft high sail boat sculpture with a mirror finish stainless steel sail, another black hole for money and my wife is aghast with my irresponsibility.

OTOH, I am planning to actually get to win some competitions and then get money back, but that is all a "pipe dream" at the moment. So no Leica is in my future for the moment. I'd love to get the Sony A7R but trying to market the art is already a huge responsibility and I dare not go out on a limb with more camera gear.

With the A7RI and the 50mm Sony Zeiss 1.8, I have already such a camera that I have no excuse for not making great pictures due to any equipment limitations. But, frankly, my ancient Canon 1DII with 8MP sensor, would be no barrier to stellar work either. In fact a 3MP Canon 3D would be more than adequate to win any awards if one has the talent and skill!

Asher
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  #11  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:18 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Unless you are married to a woman like Annie Leibovitz, Kate Geraghty, Ellen von Unwerth, Shadi Ghadirian, Dorothea Lange, Vanessa Beecroft, Rineke Dijkstra, Sally Mann, Mary Ellen Mark, Carol Jerrems, Candida Höfer, Leni Riefenstahl, Rinko Kawauchi, Isabel Muñoz, Margaret Bourke-White, Imogen Cunningham, Deanne Fitzmaurice, Barbara Morgan, Lisette Model, Hilla Becher, Annemarie Schwarzenbach, Julia Margaret Cameron, Helena Christensen, Gisèle Freund, Tsuneko Sasamoto, Sarah Moon, Bettina Rheims, Agnès Varda, Nan Goldin, Gertrude Käsebier, Louise Dahl-Wolfe, Véronique de Viguerie, Hiromi Toshikawa, Cindy Sherman, Mary Fitzpatrick, Gillian Wearing, Diane Arbus, Berenice Abbott or Constance Fox Talbot, etc...

Why shouldn't you trust a woman with a camera and a lens? Are you afraid she would hit you on the head with it? That would indeed be a real concern with that particular camera, which is manufactured out of a solid block of aluminium alloy.

Sarcasm aside, Asher, you might want to lend one of your camera to your wife or one of these young female models you sometimes present here. You may be pleasantly surprised.
Let me assure you, Jerome, I have disrespect for the sanctity of objects! My BMW is washed only a few times since I bought it in 2000. I plan to take it to the carwash in honor of Antonio correia visiting next week!

As to the camera, I even lend my Sony A7R to my 5 year old grandson! He's very careful and so a pretty model or my dear wife would be even less of a worry, LOL!

Asher
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  #12  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:23 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
...I plan to take it to the carwash in honor of Antonio correia visiting next week!... Asher
I am flattered ! LOL
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  #13  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
Mirrorless cameras are the future aren't they ?
Why would we care? As a photographer, I want a camera (or, actually, cameras...) to allow me to make the images I imagine. If the industry gives me more possibility, it is fine but I am under no obligation to use them. There are photographers who are still using view cameras from 2 centuries ago and doing fine with them.
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  #14  
Old October 21st, 2015, 01:35 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
As to the camera, I even lend my Sony A7R to my 5 year old grandson! He's very careful and so a pretty model or my dear wife would be even less of a worry, LOL!
I would like to see some of the pictures the grandson, granddaughter, wife and pretty models take with your camera, please.
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  #15  
Old October 22nd, 2015, 04:26 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by jake klein View Post
Is anyone else thinking that this is just a stepping stone to a Medium format mirror-less? Maybe that is why it is so big.
The camera and lens is actually not bigger than a D600 with its 24-70 f/2.8 zoom. It is noticeably bigger than the A7, but the A7 is quite small. It is smaller than the S with its zoom.

An educated guess as to the size of the lens is the following:
  • the camera uses contrast AF
  • contrast AF adds special constraints on the optical design: focus must happen on small extra focussing group to be fast enough for contrast AF to be usable
  • the lens seems to have been designed for a higher level of coverage than the equivalent Sony zoom, which has poor correction of the corner aberrations.

From the published samples, the lens appears to be really exceptional and in the end it boils down to what the optical engineer is told to do. If the project is to build a lens with stabilisation, contrast AF and sharp up to the corners, you get a large lens. If the project is to build a small lens, you may get only so-so corner sharpness and vignetting.

The real question is who will buy that camera. I don't see sports photographers leaving Canon or Nikon for it, at least not before it has a full series of lenses. I don't see the average amateur wanting to shell that amount of money or wanting to carry a large camera and lens (and if they do, they probably already have a Leica S...). The 4K video users are probably better served by the A7SII. The camera does not appear to have been designed for the luxury market either.

But maybe Leica only needs to build a relatively small number of these cameras to recoup their investment. With aficionados and people who want to use their collection of M or R lenses, maybe they could have enough customers.
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  #16  
Old October 22nd, 2015, 05:35 AM
jake klein jake klein is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The camera and lens is actually not bigger than a D600 with its 24-70 f/2.8 zoom. It is noticeably bigger than the A7, but the A7 is quite small. It is smaller than the S with its zoom.

An educated guess as to the size of the lens is the following:
  • the camera uses contrast AF
  • contrast AF adds special constraints on the optical design: focus must happen on small extra focussing group to be fast enough for contrast AF to be usable
  • the lens seems to have been designed for a higher level of coverage than the equivalent Sony zoom, which has poor correction of the corner aberrations.

From the published samples, the lens appears to be really exceptional and in the end it boils down to what the optical engineer is told to do. If the project is to build a lens with stabilisation, contrast AF and sharp up to the corners, you get a large lens. If the project is to build a small lens, you may get only so-so corner sharpness and vignetting.

The real question is who will buy that camera. I don't see sports photographers leaving Canon or Nikon for it, at least not before it has a full series of lenses. I don't see the average amateur wanting to shell that amount of money or wanting to carry a large camera and lens (and if they do, they probably already have a Leica S...). The 4K video users are probably better served by the A7SII. The camera does not appear to have been designed for the luxury market either.

But maybe Leica only needs to build a relatively small number of these cameras to recoup their investment. With aficionados and people who want to use their collection of M or R lenses, maybe they could have enough customers.
My thoughts are if leica could put their 30x45 MF cmos sensor in their it would be the thinnest, lightest MF camera on the market with a cmos sensor.

I couldn't afford it but it would be cool.
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  #17  
Old October 22nd, 2015, 10:49 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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My thoughts are if leica could put their 30x45 MF cmos sensor in their it would be the thinnest, lightest MF camera on the market with a cmos sensor.
The mount is 50mm and the diagonal of the MF sensor is 54mm: the mount is not big enough.
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  #18  
Old October 23rd, 2015, 04:37 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Not interested at all.

To me, Leica was and is the ' rangefinder ' experience. And the correspondingly small but excellent ( subjective since I do not read test charts ).

I wish Leica success with this offering. But for the money, I ( not others ), I do not see any perceived value for me.

The sight of it puts me off. The size of it breaks my back. The price of it, makes me go around the world
With my Fuji X100S a distinct pleasure.

Rangefinder wise, Leica is the only game in town. Other than that...
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Old October 24th, 2015, 07:06 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Not interested at all.

To me, Leica was and is the ' rangefinder ' experience. And the correspondingly small but excellent ( subjective since I do not read test charts ).

I wish Leica success with this offering. But for the money, I ( not others ), I do not see any perceived value for me.

The sight of it puts me off. The size of it breaks my back. The price of it, makes me go around the world
With my Fuji X100S a distinct pleasure.

Rangefinder wise, Leica is the only game in town. Other than that...
Fahim

I have a good Leica rumour that might be more to your liking.

http://cameratimes.org/leica-m-typ-801-concept-camera/

James
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  #20  
Old October 24th, 2015, 10:36 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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60 MP would be fabulous, but who could be making that sensor? That, with lenses to match, even just a 35mm or 50 mm would have a lot of takers!

Asher
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  #21  
Old October 24th, 2015, 11:04 AM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
60 MP would be fabulous...
If you want to fully profit from this resolution, you have to work carefully.

Would be interesting to see this become reality.

Best regards,
Michael
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Old October 24th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
If you want to fully profit from this resolution, you have to work carefully.

Would be interesting to see this become reality.

Best regards,
Michael
Alps has a series of shims so that the focal plane is exactly right. The mass of the camera needs to be sufficient and more and more one needs a tripod especially as one uses longer focal lengths. We should have an app for that!

Asher
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  #23  
Old October 24th, 2015, 01:16 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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All lovely.

As to Leica-fancying, for now we'll stick to our Typ 114 in mufti (Panasonic DMC-FZ1000).

It is in fact even too heavy to really suit me in my old age!

As to impressing people when I go out, I have Carla for that.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old October 24th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Alps has a series of shims so that the focal plane is exactly right.
My Canon EOS 40D has a series of shims to make sure that the focal plane is exactly right.

They are designated "shims" in the parts breakdown, but of course they look like washers!

Best regards,

Doug
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Old October 24th, 2015, 01:23 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Alps has a series of shims so that the focal plane is exactly right.
Why would you need shims for a Leica M-Mount? Isn't that something the manufacturer should take care of? Do you have an order code for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
The mass of the camera needs to be sufficient and more and more one needs a tripod especially as one uses longer focal lengths. We should have an app for that!
The size and weight would be in the order of a Leica M9. If you want to put the camera on a tripod - a range-finder is not what comes to my mind first.

24Mp or 36Mp (or 50Mp for the Pentax 645Z) are resolutions, that still can be fully used hand-held, but the care that must be taken increases with the resolution, so 60Mp would push that a little further.

Best regards,
Michael
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Old October 25th, 2015, 09:57 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
Indeed the camera looks very large compared to the size of the hands.

When I saw this fantastic and pricy camera I asked myself how will it compare to the Sony A7R...

Mirrorless cameras are the future aren't they ?
Hi Antonio

The camera is the same size as the M 240 and actually lighter the Leica M 240

James
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  #27  
Old November 11th, 2015, 10:29 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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I had the opportunity to take that camera in my hands today. It is indeed about the same size and weight as a Leica M (the digital ones) or a Nikon/Canon full frame body. Maybe we have just been spoiled by the reduced size of the Sony A7 line.

The 24-90 zoom is huge.

The Leica representative also had a Leica S. Interestingly, the SL and the S appeared relatively similar in size. Maybe the S did not get the success it deserves: it is actually tiny for a MF camera, much smaller than the bodies of Pentax (645Z), Hasselblad (H5) or Mamiya (645D).

The viewfinder of the SL is indeed the best electronic viewfinder on the market, noticeably better than the one of the Sony A7. It is also supposed to be better than the one of the Leica Q, but the difference is tiny. But here again, the comparison with the S was interesting: on the ground glass of the S, I can focus manually easily and accurately. Less so on the SL, even when using the peaking function. This is obviously user dependent, other people may prefer the peaking system and not be able to see well enough on a ground glass to focus accurately.
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Old November 11th, 2015, 04:54 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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So, Jerome,

What did you think of picture quality, especially skin color. I must say that I surprised myself,, this weekend, going back to a Canon 6D from a Sony A7R, that the skin color is particularly pleasing. (Folk would say that about Nikons, LOL).

The secret juices they put into getting good skin color seems to be a set of flavors that each MFR uses to separate themselves from everyone else.

I know that some folk swear by the Leaf backs for the most subtle skin colors despite being under the same Phase One Denmark company that builds its line of Phase One backs with the identical sensors. So it's the firmware and perhaps electronics too that differentiates what we get from the same chip shared by a number of brands!

So it would be great to hear an opinion on the performance of the SL for skin tones and color.

Were you impressed by any differences, or just I. The knowledge that everything is built to the highest Leica-worthy standards, and I guess that's in itself suffice t!

Asher
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Old November 11th, 2015, 10:41 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
What did you think of picture quality, especially skin color.
I was not able to take pictures with the camera and bring the card home. I was only able to experience the controls and viewfinder and to compare the camera size and weight to nearby models.

The subject of pleasing skin color is particularly complex. On your Sony, you may consider changing the camera colors to "portrait" mode. This should only influence the jpegs, but should give you an idea of what the camera can do.
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Old November 12th, 2015, 12:12 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I was not able to take pictures with the camera and bring the card home. I was only able to experience the controls and viewfinder and to compare the camera size and weight to nearby models.

The subject of pleasing skin color is particularly complex. On your Sony, you may consider changing the camera colors to "portrait" mode. This should only influence the jpegs, but should give you an idea of what the camera can do.
That's aweully helpful, Jerome. Companies put a lot of effort into such recipe and I will try that as a reference. I wonder whether or not one can select to have more than one flavor of jog processed in the camera for the same shot?

Asher
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News: Camera that auto stitches and auto builds from multiple shots! Asher Kelman Breaking News 1 March 3rd, 2009 06:30 AM


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