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How Many Images to Expect?

Stephanie Bates

New member
I am currently preparing contracts for my first two weddings EVER! Super nervous, but super excited, too! I normally do portrait work, and I am trying to get into doing weddings.

I have heard horror stories about people expecting more images than the photographer gave them and then being upset. I want to give the couples an idea if how many images to expect, but I don't want to tell them more than I will be able to produce. I guess my nervousness is getting in the way of my best judgement.

My question is: What is a conservative (and feasible) number of images I should tell them to expect?

Thanks!

__
www.stephanienbaker.com
 

James Roberts

New member
How many hours are you shooting?

If it's a full wedding 6 hours plus, anything from 350 to 600 is "reasonable" but it depends on what kind of shooter you are.

IMO, less really is more: I try to get my couples to order albums ultimately, and not to compete with a videographer.

If they have 1000 shots from a 6 hour shoot, they're going to need to get that down to 10% of those (tops--for a very large album) and that's difficult: you're asking them to do a lot of work they shouldn't have to do. You're the pro, after all.

Also, truly, I've never seen any photographer deliver 1000 killer shots in 6 hours. So why deliver less-than-great work? I'm currently working to provide even fewer shots than I do now (in other words, doing more work for the bride and groom) and charging more for the work overall.

There are, of course, exceptions: some weddings are multi-day affairs. But then you're still at 50 to 100 shots per hour final, with 50 being, IMO, much, much better.

So discuss this with your brides and put it right in your contract--and take the low estimate. That way, if you really do shoot a larger number of mind-bogglingly good stuff that tells a story then you will be giving the couple more than they bargained for...

If you already have the contract written, then add to it before the wedding. Agree on the minimum number beforehand.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am currently preparing contracts for my first two weddings EVER! Super nervous, but super excited, too! I normally do portrait work, and I am trying to get into doing weddings.

I have heard horror stories about people expecting more images than the photographer gave them and then being upset. I want to give the couples an idea if how many images to expect, but I don't want to tell them more than I will be able to produce. I guess my nervousness is getting in the way of my best judgement.

My question is: What is a conservative (and feasible) number of images I should tell them to expect?

Hi Stephanie,

Congrats on taking this bold step. I presume you have assisted a wedding photographer so you have a check list to go through so you can turn on a dime and not be frustrated when one of the things that shouldn't happen does.

I'd add that one should read this thread for some hints and approach to wedding photography in the age of digital and family friends helping out!

Promise them the least and deliver the most. I'd say 120 really good pictures is a lot. See if you can have an assistant during the reception take the guests so you can focus on the couple and the shot list that's agreed on. Otherwise you will be frazzled.

Asher
 

Clayton Lofgren

New member

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WTD: Wedding Photographer With Permission



http://www.whattheduck.net/
 
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Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Deliverables

Depends on the wedding. Some weddings more things are happening, light is better.
I don't guarantee a number. Too much depends on the way the day runs. What if you had a camera failure? I hope you have three cameras - at least one designated for a backup. Some weddings are 4-6 hours and others need 15 hours of coverage. 25 per hour is a reasonable minimum but I tend to deliver more.

I would never ever put a number in my contract for either portraits or weddings. There are too many variables. You'd be asking for a lawsuit or at least a headache because if you fell even one short you could have a bride who is not looking at the other 499 when you promised 500 and failed to reach the goal.
 

James Roberts

New member
Depends on the wedding. Some weddings more things are happening, light is better.
I don't guarantee a number. Too much depends on the way the day runs. What if you had a camera failure? I hope you have three cameras - at least one designated for a backup. Some weddings are 4-6 hours and others need 15 hours of coverage. 25 per hour is a reasonable minimum but I tend to deliver more.

I would never ever put a number in my contract for either portraits or weddings. There are too many variables. You'd be asking for a lawsuit or at least a headache because if you fell even one short you could have a bride who is not looking at the other 499 when you promised 500 and failed to reach the goal.


With respect, I totally disagree with this.

If you're accepting a job professionally (in other words, for money) then you should be able to deliver a minimum number of good shots per hour. For me, that's between 40 to 60 per hour, and I feel more than comfortable putting that in my contract.

(and Asher, 120 proofs for a 6 hour wedding is incredibly light IMO. That's not to say the final printed amount wouldn't be less than that. But honestly, with any sized family you'd hit 100 proofs just doing formals and BW variants!).

In fact, I wouldn't accept a wedding job where the number of proofs is not agreed to beforehand. Sorry--there's a lawsuit waiting to happen!

One way you do it in a contract is to specify a range, as follows "approximately 350 - 400 proof images." Your lawyer can help out here. As for light, it's your job as a pro to create good light if there isn't any to be had.

You *DO* have a lawyer helping you with your contracts, right? Like you have insurance? And backups? (Backups?! Geez--who would think of shooting less due to equipment failure! I mean, if you have to think that, you're not ready to shoot someone's wedding IMO. Of course catatastrophes happen--all your backups could possibly fail, someone could steal your cards at gunpoint-- but that's for another part of your contract).
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
US vs Canada

My advice comes from Professional Photographers of America's advice to wedding photographers. If just one image short, you could be in for legal issues - why ask for that?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Whenever James disagrees with me, take it that he's right! My mindset is the cream of the event from which the books will be made, not the number shot and initially presented.

Whenever I shoot, I hold back a lot of pictures and they only appear when there are issues that need attending to. It's a good idea to break down what you show into segments, corresponding to the stages in the preparation, rehearsal, guest dinner before hand, staged shoes n the sunset/by the beach etc, dressing the bride, etc and show the best in each category. A slide show is a good idea before the wedding with another bride's pictures so you get the order tied up with packages. Again at the end before delivery to get them to possibly buy more books.

Check list before doing a wedding:

The main thing is, of course, that one has learned with a professional and have a check list of every stage in the event and go over that with the family. In particular, not to be confrontational, but just for the sake of this thread and others reading here in the future, here are some bare essentials:

1. You have already assisted in that kind of wedding and are experienced enough to adapt to any likely or unlikely change or loss of venue/gear etc.

2. You have visited with the family, the place of the ceremony and they have seen your work and you know you can deliver to their expectation given their needs, hopes, tastes and personalities, the rules and lighting of the sanctuary and the fact that it may rain and you may be driven inside to a poorly lit and ugly hall for the ceremony or dinner.

3. You have an assistant if the wedding is large so as to get the reception while you continue to get the essential shots with the couple, family and key friends.

4. Who moves your gear looks after your laptop, prevents all your batteries being stolen etc. I've had that and 2 lenses taken?

5. Do you have at least a full back up of all lighting, cameras and enough storage so you don't have to delete on the run. If you depend on a laptop for your shoot, is their a backup?

6. Do you have a point person from the family to be with you to get the folk on your shot list?

7. Have you really checked the location and discovered where you are not allowed to use flash?
 

James Roberts

New member
My advice comes from Professional Photographers of America's advice to wedding photographers. If just one image short, you could be in for legal issues - why ask for that?

Well, I guess I find myself disagreeing then, with the PPA (since I'm in Canada, that might be one reason why).

Look, it's called "coverage."

If you can't figure out a way to both promise, in good faith, to deliver an approximate number of images to your client over a given number of hours AND cover yourself against catastrophe then I still suggest you're not ready to shoot anyone's wedding, let alone compete in the actual market.

Talk to your laywer and find out.

Anyway, Kathy, I'm sure within a narrow context the PPA is right. I can't begin to imagine a culture where someone sues someone else for delivering 599 instead of 600 proof images (but then I never said to promise an exact number, did I?)
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Well, I guess I find myself disagreeing then, with the PPA (since I'm in Canada, that might be one reason why).
Look, it's called "coverage."

If you can't figure out a way to both promise, in good faith, to deliver an approximate number of images to your client over a given number of hours AND cover yourself against catastrophe then I still suggest you're not ready to shoot anyone's wedding, let alone compete in the actual market.

Talk to your laywer and find out.

Anyway, Kathy, I'm sure within a narrow context the PPA is right. I can't begin to imagine a culture where someone sues someone else for delivering 599 instead of 600 proof images (but then I never said to promise an exact number, did I?)

You can cover a wedding and have excellent coverage and photographs and deliver onluy 100 images as was done when people were still using film. There is no reason to deliver 1000 images for a 4 hour event.
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
I'm strongly of the view that quality is more important than quantity. 100 pictures is a big album and choosing a more typical 50 or 60 from 600 mediocre images is a far worse task than choosing the same from 150 to 200 genuinely excellent images. Actually, delivering the latter is difficult and, as memories are actually very important despite our preference for composition and light, you may present more than the 100 that you really think are good pictures.

You do need to discuss what you will deliver with the bride (and her mum) so they have apprporiate expectations, and then you should seek to exceed these.

Also, don't underestimate the amount of work you'll need to put in before and after to do a good job. I know a number of (good) photographers around here who've stopped photographing weddings because it became too time consuming.

Mike
 

James Roberts

New member
You can cover a wedding and have excellent coverage and photographs and deliver onluy 100 images as was done when people were still using film. There is no reason to deliver 1000 images for a 4 hour event.

Are you responding to what I wrote?

I guess you're not really reading my posts, otherwise you would have read what I said about quality and time, and the absurdity of delivering anything like 1000 shots in 4 hours.

Either that or your math is just bad (50 average shots per hour * 4 hours = 200 proofs, not 1000).

Anyway, for me 100 - 120 proofs is probably perfectly ok for a 2 hour event. But don't pretend you'll end up with 100-120 selections from that.

Come to that, even on film I'd deliver more than 100 proofs (what? only 6 rolls of 36 film, given a 1 in 2 reject rate) for an 8 hour event. It all depends on what and how you shoot.
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
My math

Nope. My math is far from bad. I have been an accountant for longer than I care to admit. I teach photographers how to be business people. I have been a photographer longer than I have done accounting work.

You can deliver 100 images for a wedding and it can be enough. You can deliver 1000. No two weddings are going to have the same amount of images unless you are giving the client a bunch of images that belonged in the recycle bin or you gun the shutter to make sure you give your minimum.

If you are delivering 60 images an hour - you are over shooting. If the 20 page/10 spread album uses 60 images for a 6-8 hour wedding, or the 30 page album uses 80 images, then 500 images is a lot of images that will not see the light of day.

It's ok to disagree. We can have different business models and different clients. But if you are advising a new wedding photographer about the legalities on a contract, then you should get a broader perspective on international law. In the United States a bride will threaten to sue for free photography if you don't have a tight contract that prevents that one promised image from being a cause of action.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Kathy,

Jamie has shot more weddings that Tiger Woods has had ecstatic shooting moments inside or outside! Jamie knows weddings like I know good chicken soup and good breath sounds!

Jamie was only commenting on folk who might shoot 1000 mages in post #2.

Asher
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Kathy,

Jamie has shot more weddings that Tiger Woods has had ecstatic shooting moments inside or outside! Jamie knows weddings like I know good chicken soup and good breath sounds!

Jamie was only commenting on folk who might shoot 1000 mages in post #2.

Asher


Sorry - Asher - I disagree with his advice. It is not appropriate for a wedding photographer in the USA to guarantee any number of images in a contract. Yes, they are accountable to their clients for professional quality images and being a professional. However, legal advice has nothing to do with how many photographs you've taken.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sorry - Asher - I disagree with his advice. It is not appropriate for a wedding photographer in the USA to guarantee any number of images in a contract. Yes, they are accountable to their clients for professional quality images and being a professional. However, legal advice has nothing to do with how many photographs you've taken.

I think you are mistaken, Kathy,

Jamie only gives a range! He doesn't guarantee an exact number. If they expected an exact number, I'd say 5-10 special images. 20-30 good images. The rest we'll do our best, it's up to the muses. I think one should always promise the least and deliver the most since satisfaction is purely a math concept. It's based on how close the the "expected" plateau one reaches. So never promise what you are going to deliver and then give more.

Asher
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
In the contract

Of course you can tell a client that they can expect a certain amount of images. The minimum you state on paper is a guarantee. But not in your contract unless you are married to an attorney.

I go on to state my usual mantra that you shouldn't get tax and legal advice from another Photographer because they do something it can bite you in the behind by heeding their advice.
 

James Roberts

New member
Kathy--

We'll agree to disagree. You're not a laywer, I presume, and neither am I.

My advice stands: talk to a real lawyer (and not a group one) about how your contract gets made and how you can provide a minimum service to your clients.

That's it.

Now, on to overshooting 50 or 60 per hour at a wedding. Look, in an 8 hour wedding, 50 per hour is only 400 shots.

You say, correctly, that a final album may only have 50 - 100 shots in it. Also true; of course if you're delivering traditional albums with parent and wedding party variations where not everyone gets the same album, or with the same focus, then that number can easily climb to 150.

Next, you're assuming my brides only order one album or volume. Quite the contrary; I've sold brides up to 3 volumes of books: engagement, wedding to the ceremony, and wedding from ceremony to recpetion. Now we're at 250 images and sometimes more.

With ethnic weddings that go many days, you may even have more books. Or prints! Everyone likes prints, and if you're not selling them due to lack of coverage, well, then you're missing out.

And just because something isn't in an album doesn't mean it doesn't see the light of day anymore. Facebook, email, DVD slideshows--online loose print sales, all require you have something to show that tells a story.

Anyway, please don't tell me (as you did) I'm overshooting :) I still say if you're providing 25 shots per hour as proofs you're wearing your camera as jewelry. I mean, am I the only one here that needs to cover for blinks, say, in-camera? Or do you do that all in PS? Better have a clean shot to go by :)

Anyway, I'm anything but a scattershot guy. I believe in the decisive moment and I work hard at getting it. But 50 shots per hour--give or take 10%, on average, is entirely ok to deliver as proofs in my book.

Again, less is more... but you still need to take them. I'd rather overshoot than undershoot, frankly. I still deliver the same number of finals, though.

Now that's a guide too, Kathy. If we're all delivering the quality of, say, Jeff Ascough, then I'm sure 100 is enough :) People starting out (and even some of us doing it a long time) don't tend to do that though.

So my advice stands, especially to newcomers. Don't be afraid of covering yourself with an extra shot or two--it's digital--you don't have to pay for film!

Don't include junk in your proofs, but variants (BW, toned) in my experience, that aren't just pure duplicates, are usually liked and give you a chance to stretch a bit.

Also, and this is a little hard to quantify, if you keep shooting you stay in the groove. Again, I'm not saying machine-gun. But you'll miss the moment you should have got if you're not actively using your camera.

YMMV.
 

Stephanie Bates

New member
Well this was intense, eh?

I appreciate all the information from all of you! I have decided to give the bride a very meager number, so that I deliver 3-4 times that number and then she will be thrilled. I understand some people's hesitation to give any number at all, but it seems to me that people need to have some idea of what to expect. Otherwise, they will create their own expectations in their heads, and if those expectations are not met, THEN we will be talking law suits, etc.

James, I do not have a lawyer. I have a super smart business man father and a contract from a photographer friend. I am just starting out, professionally speaking. I have been shooting for a while, but was employed in a full time job as a graphic designer for a few years and didn't start my photography business until Fall 2009.

You have all most definitely answered my question and put me on the right track.

I know, without a doubt, that I can do these weddings (the number is now up to three). The thing that makes me really nervous is that I have never shot a wedding before; not as an assistant or anything. I have only actually been to two weddings in my life (and I was in both, so I don't even remember the photographer)! I am doing a TON of research and actually found a really great site that is taking me through wedding photography step-by-step, but what I am so nervous about are three things:

1. The timing of the wedding- like, how when I shoot portraits, I have all the time in the world to get the shot. With a wedding, it is all timed, and I can't stop the ceremony after they kiss and say, "Oh hey guys, I don't like that shot, can we do it again?"
2. How to get all the shots during the ceremony without being obnoxiously in the way. Where do I stand? Where do I not stand? How close can I go? Can I move around, or is that distracting?
3. Do you guys bring lighting in with you, or do you use what you've got? I try to do most of my photography outdside. I have two QL-1000 lights with softboxes, and I am not thrilled.

So, now do you have any advice for that? I wish I could assist some people on weddings, but now, in my area I am the competition, and I don't feel right about calling a fellow photographer and asking them if they will teach me how to do it!
 

James Roberts

New member
Stephanie:

Just my opinion here, and I don't mean to sound harsh, and I understand what you're trying to do but I honestly don't agree with it: jumping in to something like this is asking for trouble.

Get a lawyer, or a lawyer's time, to look over and re-write, if necessary, your contract. It's worth the nominal fee you will pay.

As for the rest of your questions, I don't know where to begin answering them; maybe Kathy can help :) You need education and experience here--getting educated on the job is pretty dodgy. There's plenty of ways to get education as well, but not before you start shooting, evidently.

Good luck!
 

Steve Davis

New member
Stephanie, I'm going to try to scare you a bit. You're right, you can't stop the B&G during their kiss and ask them to hold that pose...or turn to the right a little. This is day that the couple will (hopefully) only have once in their life. Their children may end up treasuring these images some day. I can't imagine shooting someone's wedding, having never second shot or even assisted at a single one beforehand. If you do go through with this, please be sure the couples are aware of your lack of experience. If you go through with this, you need to be prepared for any and all lighting issues. You said that like to shoot outside, but what if it rains? This will be one of the biggest days in a couples life, and after it's over, the images will be one of the few things they have left to remember it by. Please think really hard, and be honest with yourself about whether you're getting in over your head.

I'm new here and was hesitant to write this post, but decided I couldn't in good conscience just walk away from your post without putting in my 2 cents. However you choose to proceed, I wish you the best of luck.
 

Stephanie Bates

New member
I appreciate and understand your concern. Both brides are aware that I have not shot a wedding. I am charging nominal fees; a fraction of what local wedding photographers charge. One bride is a close friend and the other is an old friend. I appreciate your input, but I have already committed to both these weddings.

At this point I am not looking for people to scare me, that is only detrimental as I am too far in to back out now. I am looking for encouragement and helpful counsel. I hope you understand I am not disregarding your advice, but I am looking for a more positive, helpful, encouraging message.

I would really appreciate answers to my questions and helpful tips and advice.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Stephanie, I'm going to try to scare you a bit. You're right, you can't stop the B&G during their kiss and ask them to hold that pose...or turn to the right a little. This is day that the couple will (hopefully) only have once in their life. Their children may end up treasuring these images some day. I can't imagine shooting someone's wedding, having never second shot or even assisted at a single one beforehand. If you do go through with this, please be sure the couples are aware of your lack of experience. If you go through with this, you need to be prepared for any and all lighting issues. You said that like to shoot outside, but what if it rains? This will be one of the biggest days in a couples life, and after it's over, the images will be one of the few things they have left to remember it by. Please think really hard, and be honest with yourself about whether you're getting in over your head.

I'm new here and was hesitant to write this post, but decided I couldn't in good conscience just walk away from your post without putting in my 2 cents. However you choose to proceed, I wish you the best of luck.
Stephanie,

I quoted Steves post n full to emphasize how important every word written is to you and the couple. I flew up to N. California to help an OPF member on his first wedding shoot and he had one other experienced wedding photographer there too. That's how critical it is. Each wedding type has different key moments and expectations. They arrive and are gone at a blink of an eye. Unless you have that rhythm built into your being, you will mess up somewhere. The wedding photographer is a hunter that knows his territory and every move the prey will take instinctively.

When is this wedding? Can you get a pro to come in? You don't need to make money here, just get out of the very dangerous situation. Even if you are friends and they believe in you, this s not a wise move and it will be something to regret as the photographer's job is to record magic even when it's not there, it's raining and the priest changes his mind at the last moment and says you can't use flash n the dim sanctuary.

To me, your job is not how many pictures, but how to gracefully get a professional wedding photographer to come in and cover for you some way or another.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I appreciate and understand your concern. Both brides are aware that I have not shot a wedding. I am charging nominal fees; a fraction of what local wedding photographers charge. One bride is a close friend and the other is an old friend. I appreciate your input, but I have already committed to both these weddings.

At this point I am not looking for people to scare me, that is only detrimental as I am too far in to back out now. I am looking for encouragement and helpful counsel. I hope you understand I am not disregarding your advice, but I am looking for a more positive, helpful, encouraging message.

I would really appreciate answers to my questions and helpful tips and advice.

Stephanie,

I'm the kindest guy, I assure you. We always try to encourage and support. Where are you located? The best help would be in person! Money is not the issue. I've seen too many disasters and bitterness. Frankly, it would be easier to just help you in the shoot. Likely you can bring someone as many weddings have 2 or three or more photographers. You so need at least one "someone" there who can turn on a dime and just knows what to get done.

The work of a wedding photographer is enormous and in the best of times physically and mentally exhausting. There's timing and working as if one isn't there. If you PM me, I'll gladly chat with you, but I beg you to reread what has been said in the light of the sincere wishes you do succeed.

Asher
 

Jami Boucher

New member
I am new to Wedding Photography as well. The only time I mention an actual amount of pictures is when I am discussing the Wedding Album. Quality not Quantity! That's what I believe in. Take Care
 

Bard Azima

New member
For a 10 hour wedding I shoot anywhere from 900 - 1300 shots depending on how much is going on. Many photographers shoot much more than that (because i came from film to digitial where I used to shoot about 400 pix and give them 90% of the pix, I think I'm somewhat discriminating with my shooting). I promise them a minimum of 375 pix - which are all good pix. I always give them all the good pix, which can mean giving them up to about 450 if the shots are there.
 

Otto Haring

New member
How many hours are you shooting?

If it's a full wedding 6 hours plus, anything from 350 to 600 is "reasonable" but it depends on what kind of shooter you are.

IMO, less really is more: I try to get my couples to order albums ultimately, and not to compete with a videographer.

If they have 1000 shots from a 6 hour shoot, they're going to need to get that down to 10% of those (tops--for a very large album) and that's difficult: you're asking them to do a lot of work they shouldn't have to do. You're the pro, after all.

Also, truly, I've never seen any photographer deliver 1000 killer shots in 6 hours. So why deliver less-than-great work? I'm currently working to provide even fewer shots than I do now (in other words, doing more work for the bride and groom) and charging more for the work overall.

There are, of course, exceptions: some weddings are multi-day affairs. But then you're still at 50 to 100 shots per hour final, with 50 being, IMO, much, much better.

So discuss this with your brides and put it right in your contract--and take the low estimate. That way, if you really do shoot a larger number of mind-bogglingly good stuff that tells a story then you will be giving the couple more than they bargained for...

If you already have the contract written, then add to it before the wedding. Agree on the minimum number beforehand.


I agree! Less is more! 200-400 good ones!
 
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