Open Photography Forums  
HOME FORUMS NEWS FAQ SEARCH

Go Back   Open Photography Forums > Digital Camera Discussion > Canon Eos Mount DSLRs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old April 7th, 2013, 08:21 PM
Will Thompson Will Thompson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Near the "Out House" of the Mouse (Disneyland)
Posts: 828
Default

Look closer at the D800 sample. There is no lens degradation, only sensor extinction at the single pixel level!
__________________
Will T.

"Galleries don't hang DxO charts" David Hull
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old April 7th, 2013, 08:30 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 34,574
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
I think this is a well supported (technically) article... note that the comparison is on resolution only... no DR, or color depth or other aspect of photography, which surely doesn't benefit from smaller pixels... http://nerdycamerablog.blogspot.gr/2...n-d800-vs.html Note that the result is that "there cannot be more benefit from resolution increase (D800 - 36mp is the limit for FF) on current imaging areas, unless there will be a further improvement in lens resolution from the best of current lenses". The article also concludes that Sinar 75 MFDB (33 mp) has (a little) more resolution than D800....
The Star Pattern shows that only at the limits of pixel resolution does the image get degraded.

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old April 8th, 2013, 02:51 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,054
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
The Star Pattern shows that only at the limits of pixel resolution does the image get degraded.
Hi Asher,

That's correct. My resolution tests of D800 and D800E files, and those made by others using my test target show that the resolution is mostly limited by the sampling density, not so much by the lens (assuming a decent lens). In fact, a higher resolution sensor will pull more resolution, and modulation(!), out of a given lens, due to how their combined MTF responses add to a higher modulation at the highest spatial frequencies.

Here's an example of the effect of a higher sampling density, both systems have the same modulation at their Nyquist frequency:

The star-target test shows that resolution usually approaches the Nyquist frequency limit to within a few percent, sometimes even all the way to Nyquist. That's the physical limit that the sensor imposes, the lens has some more resolution to spare. Of course, a better lens will raise the MTF response over the entire range, and have better corner performance, but the sensor resolution sets a physical limit for the system performance.

The reason that in the linked article the Sinar Hy6 pulled up alongside the D800 with a slightly higher output resolution potential is solely due to the larger sensor size which means it needs less magnification to reach a given output size, and thus maintains its (lower) on sensor resolution better.

But let's try and stay on the topic of a 1Ds3 replacement as much as possible, and not get into other brand comparisons if possible.

Cheers,
Bart
__________________
If you do what you did, you'll get what you got.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old April 8th, 2013, 03:01 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
...That's correct. My resolution tests of D800 and D800E files, and those made by others using my test target show that the resolution is mostly limited by the sampling density, not so much by the lens (assuming a decent lens). In fact, a higher resolution sensor will pull more resolution out of a given lens, due to how their combined MTF responses add to a higher modulation at the highest spatial frequencies.
...
The star-target test shows that resolution usually approaches the Nyquist frequency limit to within a few percent, sometimes even all the way to Nyquist. That's the physical limit that the sensor imposes, the lens has some more resolution to spare. Of course, a better lens will raise the MTF response over the entire range, and have better corner performance, but the sensor resolution sets a physical limit for the system performance.
...
I have used Bart's resolution target with my D800 and the 24-70 f2.8 lens combo and I fully agree with his conclusions. The lens is not the limiting factor for the resolution.
__________________
Kind Regards, Cem

flickr
website
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old April 8th, 2013, 07:57 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Corinth, Greece
Posts: 438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
I have used Bart's resolution target with my D800 and the 24-70 f2.8 lens combo and I fully agree with his conclusions. The lens is not the limiting factor for the resolution.
But the sensor is.... for instance, an 80mpx MFDB shot in single shot, has less than a third the resolution that a multishot MFDB of the same pixel count bares... Let alone color accuracy and the more than 2 stops (!!!) of DR....
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old April 8th, 2013, 08:33 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,054
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
But the sensor is....
Hi Theodoros,

That's exactly what Cem said, as do I. We agree on that.

Quote:
for instance, an 80mpx MFDB shot in single shot, has less than a third the resolution that a multishot MFDB of the same pixel count bares...
Which again proves that the number of sensors/samples taken is what really determines the resolution (assuming a decent lens is used).

Quote:
Let alone color accuracy and the more than 2 stops (!!!) of DR....
The color resolution is indeed higher with a multistep sensor assembly, but I doubt Canon will come out with that feature in a new model. The improved DR is questionable, most Medium Format manufacturers quote the bit depth of their AD converter circuits, but that doesn't necessarily translate into actual DR.

Cheers,
Bart
__________________
If you do what you did, you'll get what you got.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old April 8th, 2013, 09:29 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Corinth, Greece
Posts: 438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
Hi Theodoros,

That's exactly what Cem said, as do I. We agree on that.



Which again proves that the number of sensors/samples taken is what really determines the resolution (assuming a decent lens is used).



The color resolution is indeed higher with a multistep sensor assembly, but I doubt Canon will come out with that feature in a new model. The improved DR is questionable, most Medium Format manufacturers quote the bit depth of their AD converter circuits, but that doesn't necessarily translate into actual DR.

Cheers,
Bart
Hi Bart,
1. That is not exactly what Cem (or you) said... Cem implemented that lens resolution is irrelevant to the sensor's one... and that -to my understanding of the implementation- "every lens advances from higher resolution sensors" which in my experience is far from truth (it's the opposite in reality) and that many sites (discussions) have claimed...
2.No.. that's wrong (it's the opposite actually)! ...because in 16X multishot, lens only "sucks" and delivers 22mpx... while sensor records REAL 88mpx out of it... after 16 shots off course! ...which proves that 80mpx sensor (no matter how good the lens is), cannot record 80mpx of resolution! (it can only record far, too far less from it actually...)
3. MF DR has nothing to do with multishot DR, because MF in single shot is still dependable of Bayer pattern... MultiShot DR is more than two stops higher than the same sensor's DR when in single-shot...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
EOS 1D3 and 1Ds3 - errant oil Doug Kerr Canon Eos Mount DSLRs 0 May 15th, 2009 05:11 AM
1Ds3 mini review Jack_Flesher Canon Eos Mount DSLRs 10 December 10th, 2007 09:11 AM
How large a 16 bit Tiff, 1Ds3 converted Raw file ? Ralph Eisenberg Canon Eos Mount DSLRs 6 December 1st, 2007 01:22 PM
Canon 20D - replacement of shutter release switch Doug Kerr Canon Eos Mount DSLRs 2 July 25th, 2007 02:29 AM
Canon 100-400 replacement? KrisCarnmarker Lenses: DSLR and Rangefinder, MF adaptions to 35mm such Zoerk 31 August 30th, 2006 11:47 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:17 PM.


Posting images or text grants license to OPF, yet of such remain with its creator. Still, all assembled discussion 2006-2017 Asher Kelman (all rights reserved) Posts with new theme or unusual image might be moved/copied to a new thread!