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  #31  
Old April 8th, 2013, 07:39 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
What is that saying about the best camera is the one you have at the time? All this comparison stuff is making my head spin and giving me an anxiety attack. HAve I purchased the wrong camera again? Should I have bought the one with the E on it? Is my number bigger than his/hers? Endless regret, constant anxiety. I must have the complete set. All the D's. Then I can take a good picture. Yeah, Nikon. Bring on the next model. My credit card awaits.
To your surprise Tom, I don't disagree with one bit that you state above..., what you (obviously) miss, is that due to my profession, I need 3 DSLRs and my choice on the D800 is because of the body/reliability/VF/AF balance that it provides.... OTOH, I was only answering a specific question to Asher (that is completely irrelevant to what you state) and I'm sorry you approach that as an opinion instead of an answer to a specific Q... I am far from the "resolution" kind of guy with my photography, I care much more for other aspects of photography (usable DR is of my first priority when I chose a product to use) and clearly from my quote, its obvious I don't have much respect for the D800's sensor (I do for the "E" version).... BUT, Ashers Q was specific on how D800 compares with MFDBs and it was addressed to me because (obviously) he wanted my experience on the subject, which he knew (from previous discussions) that I had....
OTOH, there is a part of my pro photography (painting reproduction) that does require ULTIMATE resolution, DR and color repro.... I think that I am clear on that too... if you require ULTIMATE (as you should for a pro that respects himself) in a still subject, then more pixels can't help you... a MULTISHOT back can....





the above ikon, which is 190cm tall (more than 6 foot !!!), I shot with Imacon 528c and 120m Zeiss lens on Contax 645.... in a totally inappropriate environment (yesterday) Sunday morning, (there is no chance to have a 200kg ikon moved into your studio from church in my country) ....and it would have been a disaster if I was to use an 80mpx MFDB with the same camera.... let alone the next one (shot at the same environment) that is a 90cm (3 feet) metal forced in silver covering of an ancient ikon..... You need 15 stops of DR to do that and ULTIMATE res... that an 80mpx back CAN'T PROVIDE.... nor a dslr or other back for that matter....






.....and having the MS back won't do you any good either... you need the know-how too... (as with any camera)

P.S. The above pictures from my web site will be replaced shortly with ones that do justice to the subject, because they where done in a rush and don't exhibit (especially the first one) the achievement to its worth... the following ones will! ....for the second one, we have to have the (background) environment clear... The rush to load them up was due to customers from abroad that were anxious to see the result... LOOK AT THE DEPTH of the capture... it's three dimensional ...no? ...Yet, it's a flat surface with parts of it extending towards the lens!
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  #32  
Old April 8th, 2013, 08:09 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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The covering mentioned above... covers this:

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  #33  
Old April 8th, 2013, 10:31 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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In fact, if I was to be more specific on my answer to Asher above, I have find nothing (worth considering) between P45+ resolution with respect to P65+'s one (both on Mamiya)..., nor I find anything (worth considering) between D4 and D800... not to mention D800 vs. D600... neither 22mpx MFDBs are that far behind in resolution from high end backs either (well they are... but no where near what specs implement) nor they are in their IQ... (apart from their moire issues that is). Mind you that I only test on equal size prints and never trust the results of pixel peeping... they can fool you! ...trust me on this!
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  #34  
Old April 8th, 2013, 02:38 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Phew!
That was some response, Theo.you don't have to convince me of anything. We each choose the tools for our own job. Give me a finely honed Japanese forged chisel any day but the tree lopper will be happy with a chain saw. I, too, own a number of DSLR bodies of which the D 800 is one. I bought it because I can. It looked nice in the shop window. I also use it for art photography as well as portrays an shooting the grandkids. My responses to the questions here were to simply point out to other readers that one doen'tget need to get too wrapped up in the tech stuff to want to buy something or get the result they need.
I'm the same with cars. I own a white one. It gets me where I want to go. I bought it because I like white and its small. I ca ne just as good a driver in it as any other car.
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  #35  
Old April 8th, 2013, 11:27 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Theo, what you say could ( more likely is ) be valid. But within the confines of narrow and specifically defined parameters.

one needs a different set-up to analyze the intricacies of soft tissue lymphoma than one needed to observe the birth of stars within a nebula.

Nobody, at least not me, would deny the need for various specd photographic tools for specific jobs.
Tools fit for the job.

But the comments here address a not uncommon concern of people's unending search to find the holy grail of photography; and the mistakenly belief that purchase of the latest, the best, the highest pixeled camera shall miraculously allow/transform them to take better photographers.

I believe in miracles. But expecting a april 2013 cam to make me a better photog is not one of them.
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  #36  
Old April 9th, 2013, 12:06 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Well, the iconic Greek Orthodox treasures are wonderfully reproduced, Theodoros. Still, I can't be using a multishot back for people that breathe and move! That's here I wonder whether theres' practical difference between the D800 e or plain flavor and a MFDB 0f 40MP or even 80MP for a 7 ft high picture viewable at 18 inches or so.

Will the MF really deliver a more realistic image of people in a studio setting natural light or studio lights?

Asher
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  #37  
Old April 9th, 2013, 03:01 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
Phew!
That was some response, Theo.you don't have to convince me of anything. We each choose the tools for our own job. Give me a finely honed Japanese forged chisel any day but the tree lopper will be happy with a chain saw. I, too, own a number of DSLR bodies of which the D 800 is one. I bought it because I can. It looked nice in the shop window. I also use it for art photography as well as portrays an shooting the grandkids. My responses to the questions here were to simply point out to other readers that one doen'tget need to get too wrapped up in the tech stuff to want to buy something or get the result they need.
I'm the same with cars. I own a white one. It gets me where I want to go. I bought it because I like white and its small. I ca ne just as good a driver in it as any other car.
As I said before Tom, I fully agree with you... I am very suspicious with high res equipment or with equipment of extreme value to improve ones photography... That's why I demonstrated the right tool if one needs resolution (besides color and DR), to show that specs, which in theory seem equal for detail, can fool the photographer... same thing that happens with D800's sensor with respect to D600's or D4's... We agree here, we are not on opposite sides.
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  #38  
Old April 9th, 2013, 03:04 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Theo, what you say could ( more likely is ) be valid. But within the confines of narrow and specifically defined parameters.

one needs a different set-up to analyze the intricacies of soft tissue lymphoma than one needed to observe the birth of stars within a nebula.

Nobody, at least not me, would deny the need for various specd photographic tools for specific jobs.
Tools fit for the job.

But the comments here address a not uncommon concern of people's unending search to find the holy grail of photography; and the mistakenly belief that purchase of the latest, the best, the highest pixeled camera shall miraculously allow/transform them to take better photographers.

I believe in miracles. But expecting a april 2013 cam to make me a better photog is not one of them.
Look above for my answer to Tom, Fahim... we do share the same view on the subject!
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  #39  
Old April 9th, 2013, 03:18 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Well, the iconic Greek Orthodox treasures are wonderfully reproduced, Theodoros. Still, I can't be using a multishot back for people that breathe and move! That's here I wonder whether theres' practical difference between the D800 e or plain flavor and a MFDB 0f 40MP or even 80MP for a 7 ft high picture viewable at 18 inches or so.

Will the MF really deliver a more realistic image of people in a studio setting natural light or studio lights?

Asher
I only posted Asher, to show that an 80mpx back.... doesn't provide 80mpx of res... if it was, it would be able to provide the same analysis as a multishot back... I used the example for what is to be expected from a D800 sensor with respect to the same maker's lower res. sensors, which is ....not much! I bet you don't find much res. difference between your 40mpx back to the 80mpx one, I believe you also own... (unless if your 40mpx one is of much less image area that is, or if the lenses are inferior or both). Of course you can't use a multishot back if your target moves, my point is that the extra res doesn't provide a better result that should worth consideration from a photographers POV, which is in agreement with Tom and Fahim...
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  #40  
Old April 9th, 2013, 03:52 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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I'm not saying another word, Theo (is it OK to call you that?). If we agree any more on this mattered people will begin to talk. Agreement and agreeability are not among my finer attributes.
I do understand the need for fine tools for precision jobs. One of the benefits camera manufacturers selling sophisticated tools to bloke on the street is to keep the cost down. Them more items sold the lower the cost. It also sparks new development and lots of spin-offs for the point and press market. Camera manufacturers research and development is fueled by the masses buying their products. I paid about $4000 Au for my D800 body which has already dropped in price some what. If only the people who needed the camera bought it, I imagine Nikon would have added a bit to my bill to cover development.
This may seem to have little to do with the technical aspects of the cameras in question but somehow I think it's all intertwined.
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  #41  
Old April 9th, 2013, 04:17 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
I'm not saying another word, Theo (is it OK to call you that?). If we agree any more on this mattered people will begin to talk. Agreement and agreeability are not among my finer attributes.
I do understand the need for fine tools for precision jobs. One of the benefits camera manufacturers selling sophisticated tools to bloke on the street is to keep the cost down. Them more items sold the lower the cost. It also sparks new development and lots of spin-offs for the point and press market. Camera manufacturers research and development is fueled by the masses buying their products. I paid about $4000 Au for my D800 body which has already dropped in price some what. If only the people who needed the camera bought it, I imagine Nikon would have added a bit to my bill to cover development.
This may seem to have little to do with the technical aspects of the cameras in question but somehow I think it's all intertwined.
I do prefer Theodoros if you don't mind me doing so Tom... Just to close the subject, my choice of main DSLR is the D800, strictly because of the body, AF and CF card advantage, not at all because of the sensor specs (the D800E is because of the sensor specs), I clearly would prefer (by far) the D4 sensor in it and if Nikon will decide on the matter, I will replace it for such a camera.... The D4? Excellent camera! ....way too expensive for what I am prepared to spend on a DSLR though.... I have two kids at their first year in university and live in a very difficult economic situation (much more than in other countries) to think of my tools from a "human desire POV"....
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  #42  
Old April 9th, 2013, 11:14 AM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
....
I believe in miracles. But expecting a april 2013 cam to make me a better photog is not one of them.
This! I could not agree more to the above.

Consider me as strange, but concerning cameras and lenses I am in a momentary state of bliss - I do not see that I need more than I have and even if there is one or other thing I might like to have, there is no urge to get it as I do not see a need, maybe a convenience, but that's all.

I am more enjoying to see what happens around me, search for and find interesting views and capture these either immediately with the camera I have or come back the right moment for the light I hope to find.

Best regards,
Michael
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  #43  
Old April 22nd, 2013, 04:43 PM
doug anderson doug anderson is offline
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The resolution is fantastic. I'm preparing a show of 16 x 24 prints. I've printed larger, too, and haven't yet reached the limit.
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  #44  
Old April 23rd, 2013, 10:56 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by doug anderson View Post
The resolution is fantastic. I'm preparing a show of 16 x 24 prints. I've printed larger, too, and haven't yet reached the limit.
Yet..., it's not more res. than the D600 Doug (of the D800 plain - not the "E"), I've checked that in equal size prints, in reality what you get is a kind of "in-camera" up sampling, not more picture detail, even in the case that the lens is one of the best and is used at its best aperture and focusing distance, the difference in detail from the D600 is so little that none (sensible) would give a dime about it... It seems to me that they were aiming for the D800E only and then the marketing department decided on the "plain" as well, to lower the risk of how the market would react to the absence of AA filtering... It surely is a hell of a camera, but not because of its pixel count alright... Personally, as I said above, I like my D800E the way it is, but on my "plain", I would prefer the D600 sensor and even more so, the D4's one.
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