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  #1  
Old June 16th, 2013, 04:59 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Default Don't like D800's color...

Especially skin tones... I think they are awful! ...Not that I like any other DSLR, but I do feel that D700 was a bit better on color shift absence. The think is that the raws need so much work to be acceptable ...and still, they are never perfect! I got D800E to replace much of what I was doing with MFDB in single-shot and D800 to advance my D700's use which I've kept as a back up, D800E is up to the task for resolution (with the proper glass), DR is better than any other FF DSLR and at first look up there with MFDBs... until you realize that the MFDBs are clearly ahead for usable DR (unless if one wants his photography unnatural) yet, it's better than all other DSLRs and (almost) good enough to replace MF... but color, it's full of color shifts! No where near the Imacon 528c in single-shot, not to mention the old Sinarback e-motion 22 I used to have... (or other Dalsa sensor). OTOH, D800 is clearly much better in everything than D700... but not for color shifts! The D700 also needs a lot of work with the raws (as all DSLRs) but it's easier to get it right and it's closer to "right" that D800's "right"!
I would be glad if others also comment on the matter and how they work around it.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 09:59 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Especially skin tones... I think they are awful! ...Not that I like any other DSLR, but I do feel that D700 was a bit better on color shift absence. The think is that the raws need so much work to be acceptable ...and still, they are never perfect! I got D800E to replace much of what I was doing with MFDB in single-shot and D800 to advance my D700's use which I've kept as a back up, D800E is up to the task for resolution (with the proper glass), DR is better than any other FF DSLR and at first look up there with MFDBs... until you realize that the MFDBs are clearly ahead for usable DR (unless if one wants his photography unnatural) yet, it's better than all other DSLRs and (almost) good enough to replace MF... but color, it's full of color shifts! No where near the Imacon 528c in single-shot, not to mention the old Sinarback e-motion 22 I used to have... (or other Dalsa sensor). OTOH, D800 is clearly much better in everything than D700... but not for color shifts! The D700 also needs a lot of work with the raws (as all DSLRs) but it's easier to get it right and it's closer to "right" that D800's "right"!
I would be glad if others also comment on the matter and how they work around it.
Theodorus,

Do you have a color profile for your D800 E and what is you workflow for working with RAW? Are you finding the same results with all RAW processors. What have you tried so far?

Companies like DXO, go to great troubles to build in pretty good profiles to start with.

Also, read this.

Asher
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  #3  
Old June 17th, 2013, 03:21 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Theodorus,

Do you have a color profile for your D800 E and what is you workflow for working with RAW? Are you finding the same results with all RAW processors. What have you tried so far?

Companies like DXO, go to great troubles to build in pretty good profiles to start with.

Also, read this.

Asher
All my cameras are tuned in Adobe RGB (1998) Asher, then are fine tuned using the latest X-rite, I-one I own, as with all my monitor (EIZO 242) and printer (Epson 9900), the printer however is fine tuned manually because I've come to the conclusion that even the best color profiles are not good enough for painting reproduction. The workflow for weddings, I do in LR or ACR because of the flexibility and the processing speed it provides (a wedding is more than 1500 shots). All the rest, is D800E and I process it with C1P1... Maybe I am expecting more from a DSLR than what it is capable off, maybe it's the limitations that Cmos pixels have with respect to CCDs, or maybe its the size of the pixel and the penalty to pay for the extended DR... I don't know really, both cameras are great when I process in B&W... but when in color, they require much more process to have a satisfactory result and many times, I have to additionally work on the TIFF (I export raws in tiffs and then compress the Tiffs to jpgs) with selective color on some of the images. I never did this with the D700... not to mention the MFDBs! ...Another explanation may be that I may be more demanding than I should... I never thought much of DSLRs for their color, but I do want to know if others feel the same with this camera and how do they work around it, if they have similar observations...

I have to add to the above that I am used to underexpose by 0.5 - 1 stop when in events and use compressed raws (in events only) to improve the buffer performance... Would be glad to hear from other users of the same camera. The "issue" is more evident (in my eyes) in events where there is a group of people involved in the shot and have different skin color (one more pale, another more sun darkened for example) with respect to each other... it just seems that white balance can't be applied to all of them with the same value!
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Old June 17th, 2013, 09:45 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Have you tried the jpeg files? You have some choices on the colour in the jpeg menus and there is a "portrait" setting. I am not saying that you should use them in place of raw, but the colours are supposed to be fine-tuned by Nikon, so they should correspond to the best that Nikon thinks their camera can do.
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  #5  
Old June 17th, 2013, 02:11 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Have you tried the jpeg files? You have some choices on the colour in the jpeg menus and there is a "portrait" setting. I am not saying that you should use them in place of raw, but the colours are supposed to be fine-tuned by Nikon, so they should correspond to the best that Nikon thinks their camera can do.
I will try Raw+jpeg on a wedding next week Jerome, but I am not sure this will help... Up to now I am only using raws to save space in the card and improve speed/buffer... I also don't use the SD slot at all when in events, anyway I'll try your suggestion on one of the cameras next time... The thing is that others are satisfied out of the results, while I confess I wouldn't be if I was in their place looking at the same pictures... The D4 I have tried in a wedding last year (a "test drive" camera of the importers) was much more faithful to my eyes and better than D700 too in color reproduction... miles ahead in other terms (DR, low light) as D800 is, it's just that I don't see how jpegs can avoid color shifts that I believe D800's sensor has.
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  #6  
Old October 15th, 2013, 11:04 AM
Grant Kernan Grant Kernan is offline
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I use both a Betterlight Super6K HS and the D800. I primarily photograph artwork. The Scanning back is more faithful right out of the box, however I use a colour managed work flow, and both systems benefit from In Camera profiling.
After lighting an art work with repeatable results. Strobes set to 5500 K, and 0 tint adjustment in C1Pro version 7.1.4.
I shoot a digital colour checker and a white card image. Then I process all three identical using the embed profile option. The white card image is used to produce the dodging mask to even out both lighting and lens fall off. Both the painting image and the colour chart image is adjusted and then the In Camera profile is made. After all this a faithful colour reproduction is made. As good as the D700, D200, Kodak760.
All sensors see colour wrong just like all colour films have a colour cast. Contrast is usually ramped up and colour is also biased. So much so that with the generic C1 profiles, all detail in the highlight is missing even when the SG's white patches are set to 243 RGB units. After the profiles are applied everything gets back to where it should be. I usually have to edit the profiles to add a few units of saturation and contrast, but I would rather start with a slightly flat file than one with blown out highlights.
Unfortunately i have come to the conclusion that I need several Raw converters. C1 pro / DXO / and PS6

Because In Camera profiles by Pictocolor are very much exposure dependent, they will not work in real world photography such as product with graduated backgrounds. I am very much looking for better colour profiles from C1...etc...
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Last edited by Grant Kernan; October 15th, 2013 at 02:13 PM.
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  #7  
Old October 16th, 2013, 11:10 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Kernan View Post
I use both a Betterlight Super6K HS and the D800. I primarily photograph artwork. The Scanning back is more faithful right out of the box, however I use a colour managed work flow, and both systems benefit from In Camera profiling.
After lighting an art work with repeatable results. Strobes set to 5500 K, and 0 tint adjustment in C1Pro version 7.1.4.
I shoot a digital colour checker and a white card image. Then I process all three identical using the embed profile option. The white card image is used to produce the dodging mask to even out both lighting and lens fall off. Both the painting image and the colour chart image is adjusted and then the In Camera profile is made. After all this a faithful colour reproduction is made. As good as the D700, D200, Kodak760.
All sensors see colour wrong just like all colour films have a colour cast. Contrast is usually ramped up and colour is also biased. So much so that with the generic C1 profiles, all detail in the highlight is missing even when the SG's white patches are set to 243 RGB units. After the profiles are applied everything gets back to where it should be. I usually have to edit the profiles to add a few units of saturation and contrast, but I would rather start with a slightly flat file than one with blown out highlights.
Unfortunately i have come to the conclusion that I need several Raw converters. C1 pro / DXO / and PS6

Because In Camera profiles by Pictocolor are very much exposure dependent, they will not work in real world photography such as product with graduated backgrounds. I am very much looking for better colour profiles from C1...etc...
Thanks for this reply Grant, its very well supported, when I say I don't like D800's colour, I mean when compare it with all other cameras that I've used and do intrpolated colour, I now have changed the D800 with D4 and things are much better...
I also photograph art work (in fact painting reproduction -especially Byzantine icons- is my major income) but I also do wedding, studio and product photography. I wouldn't use D800 for paintings... in fact I wouldn't use any camera or MFDB with interpolated colour... I use my Imacon 528c multishot MFDB for that, exclusively at 16x mode with "true colour". The reason I started this thread, is because I found D800 to be less stable than other cameras with larger pixels... especially in weddings, where you can have a group of people with different skin tones, (one pale, another sunburned, a third black... etc) the camera needs much more work than the D4... The D700 was more "stable" and easier to work with... although DR , moire and noise at high ISO where worst. As you said, profile calibration wouldn't help on a wedding...
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  #8  
Old October 26th, 2013, 09:47 PM
Grant Kernan Grant Kernan is offline
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I have been making profiles for D4 and D800.
I get identical colour when shooting art work. The Betterlight is only slightly better.
IMHO every Raw converter has its special sauce to flavour colour and tonal response.
DXO is better than Capture One at keeping all the colours in line...
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