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Mirrorless Pro-Class Cameras with Interchangeable Lenses Sony A7, A7R and similar high end cameras that can serve as the sole cameras on Pro-event assignments.

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  #31  
Old December 15th, 2013, 10:52 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
So given the light weight of the camera, and considerations of checking focus, would you get yourself to take with a monopod, perhaps so as to bring home more pictures that can be printed at high resolution. Or do you think that one of the heavier lenses coming out will simply add sufficient mass to stabilize the system more readily.
What the point of a small and light camera if I must add the weight and bulk of a tripod/monopod and large lens to be able to use it?
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  #32  
Old December 15th, 2013, 11:12 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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What the point of a small and light camera if I must add the weight and bulk of a tripod/monopod and large lens to be able to use it?
Flexibility, Jerome, that's what you can get! But you know that.

Of course it's not pocketable in the sense that it easily goes into the average jacket pocket, but it's not big camera bag that's needed. I see that Sony offers an accessory grip, and that could go towards adding more bulk for the heavier feel some might, on occasion want for pro work and perhaps even an impression of a more substantial camera. I myself have never purchased one of these grips as I have trained myself to work fluidly in portrait or landscape mode with the DSLR's I have just as they come from Canon and I value anything that saves weight for casual shooting.

So I see this camera as a highly adaptable pro and enthusiast camera which can be dressed up or down according to one's needs.

Asher
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  #33  
Old December 16th, 2013, 12:36 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Jerome, Asher,, you ate both right. But I am not after adding more mass to achieve stability. It is perfectly possible to hold the camera stable as is. I was just warning that one has to remember to hold it with both hands and pay attention to the possibility of shake, that's all.
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  #34  
Old December 16th, 2013, 01:37 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Flexibility, Jerome, that's what you can get! But you know that.
My problem with the latest camera developments is that the manufacturers seem to have lost the focus. The focus is to take pictures. I think that this is the reason why these new cameras are strangely unsatisfying. Let us, as an exercise, compare the A7 with the previous full frame Sony offering, the A900. The A900 is:
-marginally bigger and heavier when mounted with a lens (in any case it needs the same kind of bag)
-is stabilized so that it does not need a tripod
-has a far better viewfinder which does not need batteries
-has a far better selection of lenses, including a very compact 24-105 and quite compact fast primes.
Almost the same can be said from Cem previous camera, the Canon 5DII, which is quite comparable to the A900 in size and functions.

Of course, the manufacturer's focus is not to take pictures but to sell cameras. For that they need good reviews and a camera which look good in the shop. The A7/A7r sure win points there. But walking the streets with one in your hand and a lens in a bag by your side, I am not so sure.
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  #35  
Old December 16th, 2013, 03:22 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post

Of course, the manufacturer's focus is not to take pictures but to sell cameras. For that they need good reviews and a camera which look good in the shop. The A7/A7r sure win points there. But walking the streets with one in your hand and a lens in a bag by your side, I am not so sure.
Believe it or not, I have been taking pictures during concerts at the Colburn School from a seat in the audience, with two modest APS C compacts: the Ricoh GR for 28mm and 21mm and then the GXR for 50mm. That way I'm absolutely silent. I have adequate pictures for newsletters and the web.

The quality no where reaches that of the Canon 5DII with my usual 70-200mm lens or the 50 1.2L, but it sure is less tiring on the arms and back!

However to take real pictures for professional use, the full size camera with a glass viewfinder is unbeatable. In shooting the last concert here I very quickly cured myself of my drunk love for the digicams. They may be great for street and casual work, but they simply cannot deliver in more demanding situations where the one is expected to deliver a quality image with no excuses.

That's why I'm very keen to hear Cem's experience. The challenge is to use it in a classical concert where one has very high dynamic ranges and needs the headroom of robust files to do post processing to open the shadows and tame the highlights. I would imagine the shutter of the Sony A7 would be pretty quiet. I must go to the Sony Store in Century City and try it.

Asher
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  #36  
Old December 16th, 2013, 03:30 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
...That's why I'm very keen to hear Cem's experience. The challenge is to use it in a classical concert where one has very high dynamic ranges and needs the headroom of robust files to do post processing to open the shadows and tame the highlights..
I can already attest to it Asher that the A7(R) definitely gives you that headroom of dynamic range. There aren't many other cameras out there which do better than that. I have been able to push files 3-4 stops without introducing unacceptable noise and loss of color, and that is using just LR. I am eagerly waiting for DxO and Capture One to introduce their converters for this camera.
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  #37  
Old December 16th, 2013, 08:41 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
In shooting the last concert here I very quickly cured myself of my drunk love for the digicams.
• Small
• Light
• Quiet
• Flexible field of view
• Good images
• Fast
• Good aiming/composition facility
• Affordable

Choose three.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #38  
Old December 16th, 2013, 08:48 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Jerome,

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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I would need to check, but I think that a strong negative element at the rear is the mark of a more telecentric lens, i.e. just what we want. In a telecentric lens, the exit pupil is reported far away from the sensor, i.e. its apparent size is very small.
When we move the exit pupil substantially "forward" of its classical position (at the second principal point), which we might describe as "moving toward image-space telecentricity", the diameter of the exit pupil increases (for any given f-number). That is, the pupil magnification increases.

The result is that, seen from the focal plane, the angular size of the exit pupil (perhaps what you mean by "its apparent size") remains about the same (I think exactly the same for focus at infinity).

Best regards,

Doug
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  #39  
Old December 16th, 2013, 10:43 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
When we move the exit pupil substantially "forward" of its classical position (at the second principal point), which we might describe as "moving toward image-space telecentricity", the diameter of the exit pupil increases (for any given f-number). That is, the pupil magnification increases.

The result is that, seen from the focal plane, the angular size of the exit pupil (perhaps what you mean by "its apparent size") remains about the same (I think exactly the same for focus at infinity).
You are right, I neglected to take into account the magnification of the exit pupil. Still, you have not answered the question: why would the 35mm f/2.8 be a telecentric lens?
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  #40  
Old December 16th, 2013, 10:46 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I would imagine the shutter of the Sony A7 would be pretty quiet.
It is not. In any case, no focal plane shutter is as quiet as a leaf shutter.

The Sony RX-1 is a full frame camera with a wonderful 35mm f/2.0 lens and has a leaf shutter. Maybe that would be a better choice for a concert.
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  #41  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:19 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Thanks for that insight, Jerome. I've not used the fill sized Sony DSLR. What advantages would this choice have over a 5DII or 6D, (which has the same sensor as the 5D III)?

I have great Canon lenses. However they are heavy and the shutters are really audible in quiet rooms.

Asher
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  #42  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:28 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Jerome,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
You are right, I neglected to take into account the magnification of the exit pupil. Still, you have not answered the question: why would the 35mm f/2.8 be a telecentric lens?
Indeed. I didn't know I'd been asked.

1. Often, lenses of short focal length use "retrofocus" ("reversed telephoto") design. This is especially true of lenses for use in an SLR context, where the mirror system requires us to mount the lens farther forward of the focal plane than the focal length.

Typical retrofocus designs have a pupil magnification of greater than one. That inevitably means that the exit pupil is forward of its "classical" location—at the first principal point. This is of course "in the direction" of what we have in a true telecentric lens (for which the exit pupil is an infinite distance in front of the lens).

2. Especially with lenses having a wide field of view, the designers often intentionally arrange for the exit pupil to be forward of the classical location. This helps mitigate illuminance falloff ("natural vignetting") as we move from the center of the image in the case of digital cameras, where the working of the sensor microlenses causes a departure from the "classical" situation of "cosine response" to oblique rays.

This is all discussed in the two articles mentioned here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com...338#post149338

Best regards,

Doug
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  #43  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:31 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Thanks for that insight, Jerome. I've not used the fill sized Sony DSLR.
The RX-1 is not a SLR, it is a compact camera with a fixed lens. This is how it can have a leaf shutter.


(image source: dpreview)
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  #44  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:35 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Oh yes, that looks beautiful! I'll go to the Sony store with an SD card and see if I can try it out!

A good present to come down the chimney.

Better not light a fire then!

Asher
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  #45  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:36 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Indeed. I didn't know I'd been asked.

1. Often, lenses of short focal length use "retrofocus" ("reversed telephoto") design. This is especially true of lenses for use in an SLR context, where the mirror system requires us to mount the lens farther forward of the focal plane than the focal length.

Typical retrofocus designs have a pupil magnification of greater than one. That inevitably means that the exit pupil is forward of its "classical" location—at the first principal point. This is of course "in the direction" of what we have in a true telecentric lens (for which the exit pupil is an infinite distance in front of the lens).

2. Especially with lenses having a wide field of view, the designers often intentionally arrange for the exit pupil to be forward of the classical location. This helps mitigate illuminance falloff ("natural vignetting") as we move from the center of the image in the case of digital cameras, where the working of the sensor microlenses causes a departure from the "classical" situation of "cosine response" to oblique rays.

This is all discussed in the two articles mentioned here:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com...338#post149338

Best regards,

Doug
Actually, I asked how you would know that the lens is telecentric from its cross section, not why telecentric lenses are the best choice for a digital camera. I cited the cross section from Sony's site:

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  #46  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:38 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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A good present to come down the chimney.
You may want to consider waiting a bit for a second hand one. Plenty of people will sell those to get an A7.
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  #47  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:38 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Oh yes, that looks beautiful! I'll go to the Sony store with an SD card and see if I can try it out!
I've heard the second slot takes an American Express card.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #48  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:48 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Jerome,

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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Actually, I asked how you would know that the lens is telecentric from its cross section, not why telecentric lenses are the best choice for a digital camera.
'Scuse the hell out of me. I must have been taking a nap when the question was posed.

Telecentric lenses are not good for any general-purpose camera.

Quote:
I cited the cross section from Sony's site:
Why do we think it is quasi-telecentric at all? I wasn't following all the palaver.

In any case, I couldn't determine from the cross section (by ray-tracing, for example) where the pupils were, since the location of the aperture stop is not shown.

Nor do I recognize at sight the characteristic features of a retrofocus design—just a telephone engineer here.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #49  
Old December 16th, 2013, 11:56 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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I think the drill went this way:

• The lens looks like it has a negative rear element.

• Yes, that is often an indication that the lens is (quasi-)telecentric.

• Looking at the cross section, what makes us think it is (quasi-)telecentric?

Best regards,

Doug
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  #50  
Old December 16th, 2013, 12:07 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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I was in error in some recent remarks.

This corrects the matters discussed:

1. I understand that typical lenses of "telephoto" design have a pupil magnification of less than one. That inevitably would mean that the exit pupil is forward of its "classical" location, which is at the first principal point. This is of course "in the direction" of what we have in a true telecentric lens (for which the exit pupil is an infinite distance in front of the lens).
The distance x, the distance by which the exit pupil is located in front of the second principal point, is given by:
x = f(1-p)
where f is the focal length and p is the pupil magnification.
2. Lenses of "telephoto" design often have a negative rear element.

3. Especially with lenses having a wide field of view, the designers often intentionally arrange for the exit pupil to be forward of the classical location. This helps mitigate illuminance falloff ("natural vignetting") as we move from the center of the image in the case of digital cameras, where the working of the sensor microlenses causes a departure from the "classical" situation of "cosine response" to oblique rays. I do not know how this is typically implemented. Perhaps by the use of "telephoto" design.

My apologies for any confusion that error might have caused.

My apologies to Tom Dinning for exposing equations in other than the designated area for such. Parents should use discretion. I shall withdraw promptly to the nerdroom.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #51  
Old December 16th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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This being my thread, I don't have any problems with the sharing of any information no matter what form or nature. Your apology is therefore not applicable here Doug.
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  #52  
Old December 16th, 2013, 12:13 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Cem,

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Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
This being my thread, I don't have any problems with the sharing of any information no matter what form or nature. Your apology is therefore not applicable here Doug.
Thank you for your support.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #53  
Old December 16th, 2013, 12:18 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Note that "telephoto design" does not mean "giving a long focal length".

It means a design in which the overall length of the lens is less than would be suggested by its focal length. In some cases, that just means that the collection of elements can be closer to the focal plane than would otherwise be so for the focal length. I suppose this would be handy in making a camera with a small lens protuberance (such that the whole thing could fit in one's pocket or marsupial pouch).

The name comes from the fact that this situation is of course attractive for lenses of long focal length, where the design principle was first used.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #54  
Old December 18th, 2013, 09:31 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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I know this might be OT, but since is the norm on OPF may I know how reading about mathematical equations shall allow me to make a better image?

p.s I use the word ' make ' and not ' take '. They have different meanings as related to photography for me. But then again, this might be a bit senior level lesson.
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  #55  
Old December 18th, 2013, 09:44 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
I know this might be OT, but since is the norm on OPF may I know how reading about mathematical equations shall allow me to make a better image?

p.s I use the word ' make ' and not ' take '. They have different meanings as related to photography for me. But then again, this might be a bit senior level lesson.
I didn't say, nor did anybody else in this thread, that reading mathematical equations shall allow anybody to make better images Fahim. It is, nevertheless, information which might be useful to somebody in any imaginable manner. Not all sorts of information will be useful to all. That does not mean that we should stop sharing them. If we are going to go off topic anyway, better to share information than swearing at each other, isn't it?
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  #56  
Old December 18th, 2013, 09:49 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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I didn't say, nor did anybody else in this thread, that reading mathematical equations shall allow anybody to make better images Fahim. It is, nevertheless, information which might be useful to somebody in any imaginable manner. Not all sorts of information will be useful to all. That does not mean that we should stop sharing them. If we are going to go off topic anyway, better to share information than swearing at each other, isn't it?
It is your thread Cem. My apologies If I intruded.

I do not swear at anyone..well very very rarely.
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  #57  
Old December 18th, 2013, 09:56 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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It is your thread Cem. My apologies If I intruded.

I do not swear at anyone..well very very rarely.
No apologies needed Fahim, I'm glad you've dropped by and your point is well taken even if I may have countered it. Of course I understood what you've meant, but highlighting both sides of any given situation is a nasty obsession of mine. Regarding the swearing, I was referring to the moonrise thread of Chris where we went off on a tangent, including yours truly.
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  #58  
Old December 18th, 2013, 11:56 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Esteemed colleagues,

It is the time of the full moon, and I note that fittingly our little cottage industry—mocking my technical observations—is fully alive (one could hardly say of it, "and well").

I am gratified that with modest effort here I can make it possible for the participants to mindlessly entertain themselves in between making their real, and always worthwhile, contributions to the forum. Please enjoy this to the fullest.

Perhaps I misread the action, and that the intent is more sinister—to actually offend me. I note in that regard that you have neither the ammunition nor the aim.

In closing, let me point out that, as Euler teaches:
e^(i·pi) = -1
or, for electrical engineers:
e^(j·pi) = -1
In any case, Merry Christmas. For those of you who do not recognize this secular holiday, I have no alternative benediction for you at this time. Drop by just before Groundhog Day and I'll see what I can do.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #59  
Old December 28th, 2013, 09:16 AM
Cem_Usakligil Cem_Usakligil is offline
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Sorry I haven't updated the thread for a while now. I've been busy with life and also doing some shooting.
Now that my hands on experience with the camera is getting better, I will highlight a couple of points

Firstly, there is a lot of negative publicity in the forums regarding the big brother of my A7, namely the 36MP A7R.
Perhaps you are not aware of it so let me summarize the issues. The A7R seems to suffer from shutter curtain shake induced blur when used with long lenses and shutter speeds between 1/15 & 1/125. The problem would be mitigated if the A7R had an electronic first curtain like the A7 does, but it doesn't. The timing of the shutter closing, opening and closing again seems to cause some shake in the camera which has a low mass. Some believe that this will be resolved with a firmware update from Sony, or by some other means. One can work around it up to a certain degree but the solutions are not very practical. Adding some 25 ounces of mass to the body via the tripod mount seems to help, for example, but the idea of buying this camera instead of a full sized DSLR is because it is light and compact. So there is a lot of turmoil due to this and many complainers who have canceled their A7R orders. As I've mentioned above, this problem doesn't apply to A7, which makes me happy that I didn't go for the A7R.

Another problem which some complain about is the so-called orange peel issue which creates some artifacts in the smooth areas of an image. The complainers think that this is caused by the lossy compression supplied to raw files by Sony. The fact is, the issue is possibly not a real one but it is the imagination of some overly concerned users. Objective test couldn't prove that the lossy compression would cause these artifacts and the complainers were looking at the pixels at 800% zoom to see the imagined problem. Enough said.

The practical problem of using the A7 with the 28-70 kit lens (as I do) is the unavailability of the lens module in DxO Optics Pro Elite, which is what I prefer to convert my raw files. So I was very happy last week when DxO have announced the availability of this module for raw files. But the module cannot be installed from within DxO, or even found in their database. I've contacted their support who have tried to help me but the problem is as of yet unresolved. I hope that a solution will be found soon. As usual, DxO does a great job in reducing the noise in the raw conversion, better than LR.

I'll continue later but first, I'll process and post some pictures.
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  #60  
Old December 28th, 2013, 09:59 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Cem,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cem_Usakligil View Post
Sorry I haven't updated the thread for a while now. I've been busy with life and also doing some shooting.
Now that my hands on experience with the camera is getting better, I will highlight a couple of points
<snip>
Thanks for the very lucid and interesting report.

It seems as if there really isn't anything that is "unquestionably better than sliced bread."

Best regards,

Doug
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