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Print Sizes - how big can I go?

Paul McGuckin

New member
I've got some images that are showing up at 48" x 32" at 72dpi in Photoshop - I want to print at 18x12 and the printer at 300dpi - can I do this?

I'm thinking that the maximum without quality loss should be 12x8, but not sure. Can't test it as I currently send all my prints away to be printed (local printer is poor).

Any thoughts?
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Paul,

32*72 = 2304

2304/300 = 7.68

You will need to use a resizing algorithm. (photoshop, Irfan View, qimage, whatever, maybe your printer folk can do it, to invent the missing detail).

Best wishes,

Ray
 
I'm thinking that the maximum without quality loss should be 12x8, but not sure.

It all depends on your definition of "without quality loss".

There are several factors that could define that 'quality' beyond ambiguity.

I'll focus (pun intended) on resolution, because that is an important (although not the only) factor in human vision. Also, I'll assume the original file (3456x2340 pixels) to be optimal, i.e. perfectly (capture) sharpened.

At a normal viewing distance (25-30cm or 10-12in) under average illumination viewing conditions, human visual acuity is limited to approx. 5-8 linepairs/mm (it varies between individuals, some do even better). Those 5-7 lp/mm translate to 254-356 lines or pixels per inch.

We could therefore use 300 ppi as our goal for output, although higher numbers do translate into slightly better output quality on inkjet printers (I'll leave that for another discussion). As it happens, there are many output modalities that 'happen' to have similar native resolutions. For example, Fuji Frontiers use 300 dpi, Lambda Epsilons use 254 dpi, some others use 400 dpi, etc.

Taking 300 ppi as our benchmark, that would lead to an un-interpolated output size of your image file of 3456/300=11.52" by 2340/300=7.8" (or roughly A4 sized paper). Anything larger will gradually lose sharpness in proportion with increasing size.

Finally, when the output is viewed from a larger distance, the apparent resolution increases because the angular resolution of the eye remains constant. IAW, you can get away with some larger output if it is viewed from a larger distance.

Now, this may lead to the need for interpolation of the original file size to something larger, to accommodate the baseline 300 ppi criterion for the output modality of choice. The interpolation will not improve actual resolution, but it can help to avoid the creation of ugly artifacts that are dead giveaways of lacking resolution. It can also mimic resolution by keeping edges smooth and of high contrast, which will trick human vision into thinking it is sharper than it actually is. That's when final output sharpening is useful to mask the shortcomings and create a better looking result.

Some software applications will produce better upsampled images than others. Because your 18x12 inch requirement isn't that drastically different from the 'optimal' 12x8in, it's 50% larger, you may be able to do a convincing job in Photoshop with a Bicubic smoother resampling.
However, depending on your printer, you probably will get a better result from a relatively affordable program like Qimage because it exploits the native printer resolution and it uses better interpolation algorithms, and it sharpens to compensate for the amount of interpolation automatically. Especially if you print a lot and/or want the best quality output, Qimage is very much recommended.

Bart
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Bart
your explanation is clear and I agree to almost all…;-)

However, of course, there's always a "however", talking about print and uprezing, you forgot to write the RIP factor (I know you're aware of it!).
Some printers do use a rip to send the file to the printing machine, and some of them are pretty good upsampling, even better than all the software I tried.
You know I'm a big fan of large prints (and IQ too).
Last year, preparing an exposition in Bordeaux (I had the pride of the visit of Asher and his wife!), I made some test for the prints with a Durst Lambda.
I can't recall all the different samples (different dpi/size) I did sent, but it has been very clear, that despite all my efforts, the resolution of 125 dpi was the best to be sent to the machine, the rip did most of the uprezing, and the files where beautiful! (see Asher's article)
 

Paul McGuckin

New member
Thanks for that - sorry for the delay, the job gets in the way a lot of the time!

Anyway, I'll try Qimage and see how I go - I've had 18" prints done before and they look ok framed and behind glass, at a certain distance, but I'm never that happy up close and I want people to look at pictures closely and not be able to complain about quality.

Does it make any difference shooting in RAW? I've been using the Large jpeg setting (10Mp), but would RAW improve it?

Thanks!
 
Does it make any difference shooting in RAW? I've been using the Large jpeg setting (10Mp), but would RAW improve it?

Resolution wise, it shouldn't make that much difference but it still does. You have much more data in Raw which can be used to restore some of the unsharpness caused by optical limitations and demosaicing. The in camera sharpening choices are a bit crude.

Bart
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
I will add to Bart's comment that using RAW will permit to enlarge (if necessary) the generated tif file in 16 bit wich can be a great help for the pixels!
I also have found that C1 B4, despite a lot of bugs (crashes!), does make great quality enlargements up to 200% - at least at first sight…- it would be wonderful if we could do the big enlargements before converting raw!
For now, when I have to enlarge a lot, I upscale to 125% -not more- in C1 (3.7) and do the rest of the upscaling in PS (CS).

Bart, did you give a try to C1 B4?
 
I also have found that C1 B4, despite a lot of bugs (crashes!), does make great quality enlargements up to 200% - at least at first sight…- it would be wonderful if we could do the big enlargements before converting raw!
For now, when I have to enlarge a lot, I upscale to 125% -not more- in C1 (3.7) and do the rest of the upscaling in PS (CS).

Bart, did you give a try to C1 B4?

Hi Nicolas,

Yes, I tried C1 V4(beta1) as soon as it was released. and compared some things with both C1 V3.7 and ACR 4.2. With respect to resolution, I can summarize my findings as follows (all executed on the same Raw file):

C1 V3.7: Resolution index 100*, almost free of false color artifacts near limiting resolution.
ACR 4.2: Resolution index 102, with slightly more false color and mazing artifacts.
C1 V4b1: Resolution index 110, with significantly more false color, mazing, and other artifacts.

* The 'resolution index' is arbitrarily set to 100 for C1 V3.7, and is based on the 50% MTF spatial frequencies (cycles/pixel) and the 10-90% edge rise parameters as reported by Imatest. The Raw conversions were done without sharpening and without noise reduction (caveat; there might be some sharpening despite zeroing all controls).

So while C1 V4 did significantly improve the output resolution, it did come at a price. We can only hope that Phase One get a handle on the artifacts before final release.

Bart
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
C1 V3.7: Resolution index 100*, almost free of false color artifacts near limiting resolution.
ACR 4.2: Resolution index 102, with slightly more false color and mazing artifacts.
C1 V4b1: Resolution index 110, with significantly more false color, mazing, and other artifacts.

Thanks Bart
do you still have these tests shots?
I'd like to see the artifacts you're mentionning in C1 V4b1 as I haven't seen them in my own enlargement tryies…

What do you mean by "mazing" ? sorry I don't know that word…


Thanks!
 
Thanks Bart
do you still have these tests shots?

Here is a composite of small (non-sharpened) crops of the relevant part of my (sinusoidal grating) torture test:

RC-test01.jpg



I'd like to see the artifacts you're mentionning in C1 V4b1 as I haven't seen them in my own enlargement tryies…

This test is very hard for all digital cameras and therefore also for any (Bayer CFA) raw-converter, and they all fail to do it without adding some additional issues. It has to do with the trade-off between resolution (high modulation near the limiting resolution) and false color artifacts. Look at the trouble areas in 200% zoom for other artifacts (gaps) than just false color ones.

A more in-depth analysis of the MTF curves shows that C1 V4.0 Beta1 significantly boosts the modulation/contrast of the highest spatial frequencies by some 40% compared to C1 V3.7. While doing that will boost the modulation of all levels of detail, it becomes most visible in the false color artifacts. But, it's a beta version so I'm not complaining, yet (and there is also the DeMoirize plugin that comes with C1 PRO).

What do you mean by "mazing" ? sorry I don't know that word…/QUOTE]

It comes from the word 'maze', 'labyrinthe' in French. It is not too bad here, because the 1Ds Mark II this image was shot with has a decent AA-filter, but the effect typically exaggerates closely spaced fine horizontal and vertical lines, thus creating a maze like structure. It would probably manifest itself easier on an image from a Canon 5D or a Nikon D70 which have milder AA-filters, or a Leica M8 which has no AA-filter.

Bart
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
After Bart explanations, I wanted to see what this means in the real world…
On my laptop @ home, I have "only CS2, so I couldn't load any raw in ACR 4.2.
I had also a too short # of image to choose from, but I think this non scientific test (real life!) do confirm Batr's demonstration…
Sorry for the large images but as soon as "speaking" details…
Of course all settings to default and sharpening to "0"

[EDIT] Bad image were posted here by me, wrong captions, see below post # 15 for images - Thanks to Bart for pointing me at this error…[\EDIT]
 
Last edited:
..., I wanted to see what this means in the real world…

And here is a real world sample from me.

First composite is a true size crop comparison between straight non-sharpened (also without any noise reduction) Raw conversions from C1 V3.7 and C1 V4.0 beta 1 (saved as PNG, to avoid adding compression artifacts):
0448_C1-376vs4b1_sRGB_.png


And here is the same comparison, but after capture sharpening, Bicubic Smoother resampling to 200%, and output sharpening (sorry for the large size, but it's needed to show the artifacts):
0448_C1-376vs4b1_x2_sRGB.jpg


In this enlarged version I have not undertaken any specific action to mask the Raw conversion artifacts, which I normally would have done.

My goal was to demonstrate the pros and cons of the new/improved Raw conversion method in Capture One Version 4, as it stands in the early beta version. There is more apparent resolution due to the higher modulation/contrast of high spatial frequencies, but also a higher risk on creation of artifacts. Those artifacts can be prevented with some skill and the right tools, but it will require additional work on the file.

Bart
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Thanks Bart

and as you PMed me some doubt about caption/image, I have redone the export, this time in PNG too…

100% crop:

_G8A1234_100P.png


Link to 200% export crop

Of course all settings to default and sharpening to "0" , noise reduction to "0" also.

FYI, the crop comes from this :

1234.jpg
 
Just to put it clear.

When you see a print, you see DPI (Dot Per Inch), not PPI (Pixel Per Inch).

Depending on printing technology DPI value can be equal to PPI value or larger than PPI value.

DPI=PPI for contone printers (1 pixel= 1 dot).
DPI>>PPI for inkjet printers (1 pixel -> many dots).

Every printer driver works at fixed PPI and fixed DPI values.

To understand driver think it is a black box.
The input to this box is PPI, the output is DPI.

The driver scan the image pixels and for each one do the job.

The scan (raster operation) is performed picking up a number of pixels equal to the PPI value to lay down one inch of print.

The only way to change the PPI/DPI value is to set the quality of printing. Or, if you can print borderless, the PPI value is slightly changed too


So as you have a weak control of PPI/DPI, between prefixed values, you cannot print at any resolution you like.
The printer output resolutions are fixed by the producer.

The only thing you can do is to give the right PPI value to the driver.

If you don't, the driver wil resample your image (Nearest Neighbour is the standard fast way).

Now, every discussion about what resolution the human visual system can discern doesn't make any sense. The printer producer fixed the DPI value (you can know it as it is in the printer specifications).

If you have a printer connected to Windows (or can run a windows application), go to PhotoResampling
, download for free PrinterData and you will be able to know your printer PPI and printable area.
 
Also Qimage does a good work resampling images for printing.
It's even cheaper and has more features as PhotoResampling.

Do you tried PhotoResampling or look at the features list?

Qimage is a for printing product, and yes in this field you have many features.

PhotoResampling is growing to cover all the editing field and has many more features.

Are you able to do white balance in Qimage?
Are you able to fix shadows/hilights in Qimage?
Are you able to manipulate histograms in Qimage?
....................................... and so on.

I think the 2 products have different goals.
 

John_Nevill

New member
Are you able to do white balance in Qimage?
Are you able to fix shadows/hilights in Qimage?
Are you able to manipulate histograms in Qimage?
....................................... and so on.

I think the 2 products have different goals.

Giovanni, surprisingly, you can do all the above with the exception of fixing shadow/highlights using dedicated sliders, it seem as though DDIsoftware are equally diversifying their Qimage product.
 

John_Nevill

New member
Giovanni,

Apologies, I was referring to how many raw converters and image editing software now have dedicated controls for highlight and shadow recovery, whereas in the past one may have used curves.

Although nowadays such functions use high gradation sequencing algortihms to restore colour loss.
 
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