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Bush as a Terrorist: childish delusional simplicity or provocative artistry?

Antonio Correia

Well-known member
... Not that I am comparing, but, the wars fought against the north and south American native Indians, was perfectly legal.
Today we view those wars as atrocities that eradicated wonderful cultures form the map of this earth, so, even thought this war maybe legal today, tomorrow, it could become a crime against humanity. It will be interesting to see what history will make of it in 50-100 years time ...

Please Ivan, tell me:
When you are refering to "wars fought against the north and south American native Indians, was perfectly legal" do you refer to native Indians in the American Continent ?

If you are, I can not desagree more with you.

Indians were in the American Continent before whites arrived.
Blacks were in Africa before whites arrived.

Have you ever heard of Aristides De Souza Mendes ?

I admire the courage of this man. He jeperdized his life for the sake of thousands (30.000) of people !!
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Who'd imagine the attitude of France to the USA after all that was given!

Servicemen who remember Normandy can't figure this one out!

Because there are no relation between the 2 events.

Did the US guys come to France in 1944 because they did remember Lafayette?
Certainly not, they came to beat the Nazis!

France as lot of other European countries - AS they are FRIENDS with American PEOPLE - did warn US administration because they did know that the arguments against Irak where lies (the pseudo super arms) and that the strategy was as wrong as the one that permit the American defeat in Vietnam.

What US army has done in Irak will have bad consequences for all the western countries for long! They have let the islamist getting stronger and more and more listened in the Muslim communities, see what's happening now in England, polls have demonstrated that young muslims are now, more than ever, for a total war against non muslim! Can you imagine that they say that changing of religion must be punished by death!

So no, my good friend Asher, what the US army has done to help and save us in Europe is not a reason to let all us go for suicide, just to let some oil companies make more benefits. Sorry.

I would like so much to be wrong!

Anyway, American people are still my friends if they want and if they don't mix-up everything.


Yes, Peace, yes Love.
This is by the way what I try to bring into my photography work, even the commercial one. Find the angles and the light where poetry, beauty and balance is…
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nicolas,

What can I say for now, I'm asleep, but your response is worth paying attention to!

Still, I cannot allow your well written argument against ill thought out US response to be used by Chirac et all as a cover for their distaste for the USA and England which predates the birth of many on this forum!

Now, good night!

Asher
 

Antonio Correia

Well-known member
Because there are no relation between the 2 events.

Did the US guys come to France in 1944 because they did remember Lafayette?
Certainly not, they came to beat the Nazis!

France as lot of other European countries - AS they are FRIENDS with American PEOPLE - did warn US administration because they did know that the arguments against Irak where lies (the pseudo super arms) and that the strategy was as wrong as the one that permit the American defeat in Vietnam.

What US army has done in Irak will have bad consequences for all the western countries for long! They have let the islamist getting stronger and more and more listened in the Muslim communities, see what's happening now in England, polls have demonstrated that young muslims are now, more than ever, for a total war against non muslim! Can you imagine that they say that changing of religion must be punished by death!

So no, my good friend Asher, what the US army has done to help and save us in Europe is not a reason to let all us go for suicide, just to let some oil companies make more benefits. Sorry.

I would like so much to be wrong!

Anyway, American people are still my friends if they want and if they don't mix-up everything.


Yes, Peace, yes Love.
This is by the way what I try to bring into my photography work, even the commercial one. Find the angles and the light where poetry, beauty and balance is…


Well spoken Nicolas !

I agree with you !
:)
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
Well as one who fought against them, I would not have a problem with defining those who fight against soldiers/police as 'other than terrorists', though western civilisation has a problem with the fact that they don't wear uniforms, not 'fair' somehow.

Those who purposely use civilians as targets and ensuring deaths of their own civilians for propaganda purposes are dispicable and evil terrorists.

The problem comes when 'freedom fighters' fight in civilian clothing, it becomes extremely difficult to diffrentiate between a civilian killed in battle or a freedom fighter whose gun has been hurridely kicked aside for the media to take a photo of a 'dead civilian'. A good example would be the disparity between the numbers of Hezbollah that the Israeli army claim to have killed and that which the UN has counted. When they are all wearing civies and their weapons are long gone by the time the 'counters' get there, who is to say?

The thing is, and this is important, if you want to fight against an army, however just your cause, you cannot cry foul when you get killed just because the army or country is bigger than you! Unlike the way countries see it, that anyone fighting against the incumbent governement is a traitor, a freedom fighter should be treated as a combatant. If you start a war then you have to accept the consequences of losing a war with all that entails.

The US made a huge mistake with Guatmano. The fighters should have been put in POW camps and treated like POW's according to the Geneva convention. It should have been stated that they would be let out when the war is over and when they are no longer enemy combatants albeit this might be a very very long time. Trying them as criminals is just stupid.

The Palestinian people elected a governement that has declared war against Israel. Fair enough, they have a right to so choose, that is democracy. But they cannot fight on one hand and complain of closed borders, the drying up of international charity, etc on the other. Either you are at war or you are not. You cannot fire on a country and expect them to turn the other cheek. If they were only fighting against the soldiers of which I was one at the beginning of the 2nd Intafada, then I would be happy not to label them as terrorists, it would be a war and however much I disagree with their objectives, the war would be conducted as a war. Soldiers know that they may die in war. We mourn them as I mourned friends but it isn't a tragedy when it's man against man and both are armed (Yes, of course it's a tragedy but not on the scale of civilians being killed by armed men). It's when civilians are targeted as civilians, not as unfortunate victims but as specific targets, when civilians are used with the sole purpose of ensuring that the media will have plenty pictures of dead babies the next morning to gloat over on their front pages, that is when it becomes terrorism and inexcuseable and utterly dispicable.

My question is whether the media has a responsibility for the use that terrorists are making of them as a propaganda tool?

Would the next 'Lebanon' occur in the same way if the media had said 'we're not doing your dirty work for you, if you ensure the deaths of your own civilians then we are not going to do anything but say, terrorists, this is your own fault don't come crying to us'. We all know what the headlines did say at the time and we all know exactly what strategy will be used by terrorists for the future, it worked like a dream this time...
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
Actually it all so very stupid, if the same money was ploughed into renewable forms of energy, if the oil companies and the Saudi were gagged for 6 years or so, then the huge cash resources of countries with little or no right to dictate to the civilised world would end, the need to worry about the opinion of such countries would end, we would all save the planet and the middle east would return to its rightful place in global politics, utterly ignored and totally inconsequential with the option to join the civilised world with all that entails, or be ignored.

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper for all of us as well.

Now if only human beings were rational creatures!
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Still, I cannot allow your well written argument against ill thought out US response to be used by Chirac et all as a cover for their distaste for the USA and England which predates the birth of many on this forum!

No, no, no!
You're wrong on this matter, Chirac and de Villepin (though they aren't my cup of tea) have nothing against Americain nor English Peoples.
They are are the heirs of de Gaulle politic who wanted to establish strong relations with Americans besides USA not into USA.
When the good American troops went into Europe thru Normandy and together with the English, French and other allies such as Russians (on the opposite side of Europe) to beat the nazis, USA did not forget to come with tons of cigarettes, coke and othe stuff that were highly welcomed.
A very few people saw at that moment that it was the premises of a well made plan by US administration and major US companies to have Europe for a new economic market to sell products from USA.
de Gaulle understood that very early and since that time was suspected of anti-americanism which he was not.
It was very important for him to have, if not Europe, at least France, independant, this explains the need of the French nuclear bomb. Do not forget that Europe is much more close to USSR than USA!
This was an opposite politic than the British one. Well, why not!

In fact I suspect you don't like Chirac for his position about Israel and Palestine.
On this matter I have to admit that most of French do agree with this politic.
We do love Israelians.
We do love Palestinians.
We do not agree with palestinian terrorism.
We want a peace as Yitzhak Rabin tried to settle before being assassinated.

Stop war! (yes I know French are not the latest to sell arms in the world).

And please stop to simplfy, if we don't agree, this does not mean we're against you.
If we don't want to be a colony, this does not mean that we're ennemies!
 

Ivan Garcia

New member
Please Ivan, tell me:
When you are refering to "wars fought against the north and south American native Indians, was perfectly legal" do you refer to native Indians in the American Continent ?

If you are, I can not desagree more with you.

Indians were in the American Continent before whites arrived.
Blacks were in Africa before whites arrived.

Have you ever heard of Aristides De Souza Mendes ?

I admire the courage of this man. He jeperdized his life for the sake of thousands (30.000) of people !!

Well Antonio.
Is not a matter for you to disagree with me, is a matter of History.
At the time those wars were fought, they were “Perfectly legal”, in the sense that the governments in power at the time, endorsed and pursued those wars.
Today we view those wars as atrocities.
But, if you still want to disagree with me, be my guest.
 

Ivan Garcia

New member
Actually it all so very stupid, if the same money was ploughed into renewable forms of energy, if the oil companies and the Saudi were gagged for 6 years or so, then the huge cash resources of countries with little or no right to dictate to the civilised world would end, the need to worry about the opinion of such countries would end, we would all save the planet and the middle east would return to its rightful place in global politics, utterly ignored and totally inconsequential with the option to join the civilised world with all that entails, or be ignored.

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper for all of us as well.

Now if only human beings were rational creatures!
...If only.
 
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