nicolas claris
OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Et pourtant si, elles étaient même retirées de "photobucket".
Nigel a du les reposter…
Même James l'avait remarqué.
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A Muse Visits! Nude or not?
- Thread starter Nigel Allan
- Start date
Et pourtant si, elles étaient même retirées de "photobucket".
Nigel a du les reposter…
Même James l'avait remarqué.
Nigel Allan
Member
Thank you James. I appreciate the feedback
Nigel Allan
Member
Actually, I removed them as I did not like the tone the criticism which I felt was nothing about photography or even the tradition of photography but all about personal cultural prejudices. Asher asked me to reinstate them, to which I agreed. However I believe he must have done so through a back up
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Hi Nigel.
Thanks for re-instating your photos. The context is important. A conversation is only part thereof without all the communication methods.
I wonder, though, what you consider as 'photography' if personal culture and prejudices (and I assume you would also include ethics, biasses, religion, political affiliations and the like) are excluded.
Should we discuss only the structure of the surface upon which the photo is printed?
Are we to only discuss the tones and colour, form and composition?
Maybe we could restrict ourselves to the technical side of things such as camera and PP.
I know of such 'photographers'. They exist in their millions here on the internet. Their comments are usually restricted to: Like; what sort of camera did you use; what were the settings; and, my favourite, I would have taken it differently.
They might be more suited to your 'feelings'.
I am reminded of one of the great photography writers of our time, John Szarkowski, discussing a photo he sent his friend. It was a simple image of his dog in his back yard.
The story behind that photo, far more interesting than the image itself, if taken only at face value, tells of his concern for his pet, and his reasons for not having the dog transported to his new home. The dog was the very reason why he decided to stay where he was for the rest of the dogs life and even longer.
Some might consider all that irrelevant when looking at the photo of the dog in the back yard.
But to hear of his 'prejudices and personal cultural' is the very reason the photo was taken; although not said.
Your photos also hold your own 'prejudices and personal culture'. It would be impossible for you to separate yourself from them, especially in such personal images.
Your presentation of those images to us is to say more than just technical information or artistic merit. The feelings have when taking the shots is carried with the images. They are not visible to us but we can interpret the image so we might understand more about you as well as the image.
But in making our own interpretation, we carry with us all that we are and most of us are as much unable to let go of that as you were when you took the photo and posted it here.
As much as it is expected by you that if you cross the road at a pedestrian crossing you will arrive safely at the other side, there is every chance you will be honked at, waved to, greeted or run over.
But standing on the curb will get you nowhere.
Keep posting Nigel. How else will you know my prejudices and personal culture.
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Doug Kerr
Well-known member
Hi, Tom,
Too sensual for me!
Best regards,
Doug
Too sensual for me!
Best regards,
Doug
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
A known subject.
Imogen Cunningham (1883-1976)
The Unmade Bed, 1957
This photograph was made in 1957, as a study for photographing your environment without anyone in it. Imogen said: "And one morning I got up and that was the way my bed looked, and I threw my hairpins in it."
Imogen Cunningham (1883-1976)
The Unmade Bed, 1957
This photograph was made in 1957, as a study for photographing your environment without anyone in it. Imogen said: "And one morning I got up and that was the way my bed looked, and I threw my hairpins in it."
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Back to the O.P. : exposing the censored!
At the 2016 L.A. Art Show, (last day today at the L.A. Convention Center, There's a massive display of high fashion/society folk dead in the crime scenes meticulously photographed and also on actual 3D full size recreation with a body!
Seeing this, lifting the veil of privacy is certainly acceptable today for the sake of art!
I am offended by the display of the crime scenes since it is ghoulish and obviously without consent of the victims. OTOH, Nigel's work is utterly consensual and to me playful and welcome.
I am happy to see boundaries broken, even when these are ones that I would not trespass near. That way our very values are tested in a safe manner and that is, on the whole an advantage.
Perhaps, in a thousand years we might even get beyond treating cultural tales as the "truth" which has to divide us!
Asher
I was not sure where to post these as they are technically nudes...but are they? I just shoot what pleases my eye. Feedback is welcome.
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At the 2016 L.A. Art Show, (last day today at the L.A. Convention Center, There's a massive display of high fashion/society folk dead in the crime scenes meticulously photographed and also on actual 3D full size recreation with a body!
Seeing this, lifting the veil of privacy is certainly acceptable today for the sake of art!
I am offended by the display of the crime scenes since it is ghoulish and obviously without consent of the victims. OTOH, Nigel's work is utterly consensual and to me playful and welcome.
I am happy to see boundaries broken, even when these are ones that I would not trespass near. That way our very values are tested in a safe manner and that is, on the whole an advantage.
Perhaps, in a thousand years we might even get beyond treating cultural tales as the "truth" which has to divide us!
Asher
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
Or we could decide otherwise: that gratuitously publishing crime scenes is bad taste, even for the sake of art.
Personally, I think that we can publish anything, but we need a good reason for it. The "good reason" part is important.
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Art is a human concept and is susceptible to interpretation.
Nor is it a pathway to social acceptance in all places.
I have no objection to the images per ca. I enjoy the opening up of discussion on such matters.
I find no discomfort in questioning the motives of the photographer. If it puts the photographer in a position of discomfort, then that is his/her business and might need to question their own motives and honesty with the rest of us.
So be it, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Its not unlike challenging religion. If I criticise a religious approach and someone is offended, it is up the them to question why, not me.
If Nigel felt the need to remove his images, that's for him to deal with. I gain no satisfaction from his actions. I am somewhat disappointed in him. He surely doesn't have the stamina to stand by his ideals.
Nor is it a pathway to social acceptance in all places.
I have no objection to the images per ca. I enjoy the opening up of discussion on such matters.
I find no discomfort in questioning the motives of the photographer. If it puts the photographer in a position of discomfort, then that is his/her business and might need to question their own motives and honesty with the rest of us.
So be it, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Its not unlike challenging religion. If I criticise a religious approach and someone is offended, it is up the them to question why, not me.
If Nigel felt the need to remove his images, that's for him to deal with. I gain no satisfaction from his actions. I am somewhat disappointed in him. He surely doesn't have the stamina to stand by his ideals.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
There might be a place for criticizing "religious" approaches, Tom. One would be in Broadcast TV, radio or the Internet. Another would be in your own living room. But in someone else's living room there's the etiquette of not insulting the host's other guests.
There is no point in attacking some "religious" person here on their unusual beliefs. We're all articulate enough to dismiss such arguments.
I personally do not see any net gain! It's plenty enough to discuss the impact of the picture. It's fine to mention that one wouldn't do this type of photography for ethical reasons, but having said that I would not go further than stressing how I wouldn't do the same!
There is still plenty to discuss!
Asher
There is no point in attacking some "religious" person here on their unusual beliefs. We're all articulate enough to dismiss such arguments.
I personally do not see any net gain! It's plenty enough to discuss the impact of the picture. It's fine to mention that one wouldn't do this type of photography for ethical reasons, but having said that I would not go further than stressing how I wouldn't do the same!
There is still plenty to discuss!
Asher
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
I am sorry, but I cannot view images without context. I'll explain by coming back to the two examples I cited.
The first one:
(Willy Ronis: Le nu provençal)
Willy Ronis photographed his wife: Marie-Anne Lansiaux.
When the Germans occupied Paris, in 1940, Ronis (whose parents had both emigrated from eastern Europe in response to turn-of-the-century anti-Jewish persecution) fled south to the area under control of Vichy.
It was during his time in the south that Ronis met Marie-Anne Lansiaux, a painter and committed communist. Ronis himself had identified from a young age with the left, so we can imagine that there was a double community of thought between the two persons, both were artists and both identified with the left and fled Paris because of their ideas.
The image is wildly recognised. The story, as Ronis recalls, is: “We had a little stone cottage at Gordes. It was a hot summer, and I was repairing the attic. I needed a towel, so I came down and there was Marie-Anne standing naked on the stone flags, washing herself from the tin basin. ‘Don’t move,’ I said and, my hands full of plaster, I grabbed my Rolleiflex and took four shots. It was the second shot which I chose.”
It is obviously an intimate image, but one that transcribes feelings of a simple life in simpler times. The light is magnificent, as it often is in Provence.
The second one:
Imogen Cunningham (1883-1976)
The Unmade Bed, 1957
This photograph was made in 1957, as a study for photographing your environment without anyone in it. Imogen said: "And one morning I got up and that was the way my bed looked, and I threw my hairpins in it."
With that second image, we have a completely different approach. The image is completely set-up. Sure, it is an unmade bed, but the objective was a study. The hairpin have been deliberately added, so that the viewer understands the bed was occupied by a woman. Yet, the viewer will not immediately understand that the same woman is actually the photographer.
Now, I am terribly sorry, but the context of the pictures by Nigel Alan is, in my eyes, less positive. At the time Maria was first presented to us as a model, we had an ongoing discussion titled Your views on photographing art nudes: Art or exploitative titillation?, where we discussed appropriate behaviour between a photographer and a model. Then, Thailand probably has the largest sex industry on this planet directed to the entertainment of not so young occidental males and Macau is not really a holy place either. Last but not least, this forum prides himself on checking the background of its members. Yet, when I tried to find out the story behind the pictures, I simply typed "Nigel Allan Thailand" into google and all I get is pages after pages of scandalous behaviour by an Englishman bearing that name, with a wife and 3 children in England and scamming people with cryptocurrency and carbon taxes schemes. I am not easily offended, but it is a bit much to swallow: I don't mind the sex part, but I recent being taken as an imbecile.
Now, maybe the pictures are just as set up as Imogen's bed, Macau is photoshopped in, Maria actually lives in London and Nigel is pulling our collectives legs. In that case, I would agree that this is great art as it succeeds in describing a situation creating emotions. In the other case, less so. Context is important.
The first one:
(Willy Ronis: Le nu provençal)
Willy Ronis photographed his wife: Marie-Anne Lansiaux.
When the Germans occupied Paris, in 1940, Ronis (whose parents had both emigrated from eastern Europe in response to turn-of-the-century anti-Jewish persecution) fled south to the area under control of Vichy.
It was during his time in the south that Ronis met Marie-Anne Lansiaux, a painter and committed communist. Ronis himself had identified from a young age with the left, so we can imagine that there was a double community of thought between the two persons, both were artists and both identified with the left and fled Paris because of their ideas.
The image is wildly recognised. The story, as Ronis recalls, is: “We had a little stone cottage at Gordes. It was a hot summer, and I was repairing the attic. I needed a towel, so I came down and there was Marie-Anne standing naked on the stone flags, washing herself from the tin basin. ‘Don’t move,’ I said and, my hands full of plaster, I grabbed my Rolleiflex and took four shots. It was the second shot which I chose.”
It is obviously an intimate image, but one that transcribes feelings of a simple life in simpler times. The light is magnificent, as it often is in Provence.
The second one:
Imogen Cunningham (1883-1976)
The Unmade Bed, 1957
This photograph was made in 1957, as a study for photographing your environment without anyone in it. Imogen said: "And one morning I got up and that was the way my bed looked, and I threw my hairpins in it."
With that second image, we have a completely different approach. The image is completely set-up. Sure, it is an unmade bed, but the objective was a study. The hairpin have been deliberately added, so that the viewer understands the bed was occupied by a woman. Yet, the viewer will not immediately understand that the same woman is actually the photographer.
Now, I am terribly sorry, but the context of the pictures by Nigel Alan is, in my eyes, less positive. At the time Maria was first presented to us as a model, we had an ongoing discussion titled Your views on photographing art nudes: Art or exploitative titillation?, where we discussed appropriate behaviour between a photographer and a model. Then, Thailand probably has the largest sex industry on this planet directed to the entertainment of not so young occidental males and Macau is not really a holy place either. Last but not least, this forum prides himself on checking the background of its members. Yet, when I tried to find out the story behind the pictures, I simply typed "Nigel Allan Thailand" into google and all I get is pages after pages of scandalous behaviour by an Englishman bearing that name, with a wife and 3 children in England and scamming people with cryptocurrency and carbon taxes schemes. I am not easily offended, but it is a bit much to swallow: I don't mind the sex part, but I recent being taken as an imbecile.
Now, maybe the pictures are just as set up as Imogen's bed, Macau is photoshopped in, Maria actually lives in London and Nigel is pulling our collectives legs. In that case, I would agree that this is great art as it succeeds in describing a situation creating emotions. In the other case, less so. Context is important.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I am sorry, but I cannot view images without context. I'll explain by coming back to the two examples I cited.
The first one:
(Willy Ronis: Le nu provençal)
Willy Ronis photographed his wife: Marie-Anne Lansiaux.
When the Germans occupied Paris, in 1940, Ronis (whose parents had both emigrated from eastern Europe in response to turn-of-the-century anti-Jewish persecution) fled south to the area under control of Vichy.
It was during his time in the south that Ronis met Marie-Anne Lansiaux, a painter and committed communist. Ronis himself had identified from a young age with the left, so we can imagine that there was a double community of thought between the two persons, both were artists and both identified with the left and fled Paris because of their ideas.
The image is wildly recognised. The story, as Ronis recalls, is: “We had a little stone cottage at Gordes. It was a hot summer, and I was repairing the attic. I needed a towel, so I came down and there was Marie-Anne standing naked on the stone flags, washing herself from the tin basin. ‘Don’t move,’ I said and, my hands full of plaster, I grabbed my Rolleiflex and took four shots. It was the second shot which I chose.”
It is obviously an intimate image, but one that transcribes feelings of a simple life in simpler times. The light is magnificent, as it often is in Provence.
The second one:
Imogen Cunningham (1883-1976)
The Unmade Bed, 1957
This photograph was made in 1957, as a study for photographing your environment without anyone in it. Imogen said: "And one morning I got up and that was the way my bed looked, and I threw my hairpins in it."
With that second image, we have a completely different approach. The image is completely set-up. Sure, it is an unmade bed, but the objective was a study. The hairpin have been deliberately added, so that the viewer understands the bed was occupied by a woman. Yet, the viewer will not immediately understand that the same woman is actually the photographer.
Now, I am terribly sorry, but the context of the pictures by Nigel Alan is, in my eyes, less positive. At the time Maria was first presented to us as a model, we had an ongoing discussion titled Your views on photographing art nudes: Art or exploitative titillation?, where we discussed appropriate behaviour between a photographer and a model. Then, Thailand probably has the largest sex industry on this planet directed to the entertainment of not so young occidental males and Macau is not really a holy place either. Last but not least, this forum prides himself on checking the background of its members. Yet, when I tried to find out the story behind the pictures, I simply typed "Nigel Allan Thailand" into google and all I get is pages after pages of scandalous behaviour by an Englishman bearing that name, with a wife and 3 children in England and scamming people with cryptocurrency and carbon taxes schemes. I am not easily offended, but it is a bit much to swallow: I don't mind the sex part, but I recent being taken as an imbecile.
Now, maybe the pictures are just as set up as Imogen's bed, Macau is photoshopped in, Maria actually lives in London and Nigel is pulling our collectives legs. In that case, I would agree that this is great art as it succeeds in describing a situation creating emotions. In the other case, less so. Context is important.
Well then, Jerome, so this is "Art" after all!
........that I would rather hold on to for a while!
And it goes without saying that your anecdotal descriptions provide the much-needed background information to appreciate the pictures more fully. We get not only what the picture might mean, commonly by all just at a glance and then you provide the extra depth of emotion and understanding to fully appreciate the photographer's own feelings in such a personal way.
One of the special parts of art is the openness to new experience that artists possess and then you help us by "letting us in" on those details that put the art in context. You, like the artist are most generous!
Thanks,
Asher
Michael Ritter
New member
I would have preferred to see more of the ladies face!
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Which one?
Michael Ritter
New member
The lady on the bed!
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Michael,
Yes one could do that but then wouldn't the picture become about the actual person! I think that the whole idea might be to share the form but not the identity.
In figure art, we are looking at the lines and form and not in most cases interested in the personal connection with the model.
Asher