Your views on photographing art nudes: Art or exploitative titillation?

[Asher Kelman]

The Risk of Asking a Friendly and "Modern" Co-Worker to Pose

I find that photo very alluring and very sensual. We have a young lady that works with us that is our housekeeper and I would love to photograph her nude in a pose similar to the one James made. When I can I save photos that I like onto my computer so that I can later study them and the one that James shared is one that I have saved.

I would warn you away from that! Asking her could get you fired as you might be considered as some authority figure and that could easily be construed as harassment or creating a hostile work environment.

Even if you just made the request, the building owners could easily face having to pay out a massive sum to her and you wouldn't get a day's severance pay! Don't be lulled into thinking that because she is friendly and likely as not very decent and approachable you are safe. Another person, knowing you asked her or actually took pictures could also claim that there was an hostile work environment. So never, never, never do what you suggest. Use Model Mayhem and enter such photography openly through the front door and thrive!

...and guess what, you are at still risk even asking her out for coffee, if you are known to have photography on your mind!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Dave,

One cannot promise to help a one in their career unless you are indeed in that position of influence power and experience! So avoid any hints. It's quite simple. There are models for fashion, art nudes glamor, boudoir for example, who have styles they follow. Get someone with a good portfolio and obtain solid references.,Just say what you want and how much you are paying. Cover travel, parking and food too. Give them a comfortable private and separate place to change and put on make up. Have a chaperone if you can. Again, check references. Have a professional consent form signed before the shoot and photograph the model's driving license to be sure they are over 18 years old.

Plan what you are doing, make up artist if need be, clothes, lighting and location.

Pay the model immediately and give them at least 2 pictures for their website as jpg 8x10 files to print. Don't make the model part of your social life, tolerate pill taking or think of the person as a potential date. Treat as a colleague and as one would expect to be treated yourself in a professional situation.

If the clothes are not set right or hair is off, ask him/her to change it. That's where an assistant comes in handy!

........ But here I agree with Tom, for once, you're on to a good thing with your street photography of homeless veterans and the like, as you already understand the denizens you photograph well. That human connection puts you well ahead of most and that's, in a way, your strength here and advantage. You have to know your little world as well as God know his!

However, if you wish to shoot models, then do it the right way and as a start, the pointers I have given you will help you at least get started comfortably.

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

What ladder? Did I mention a ladder? Besides, whatever reference I have made to a climbing device used by tradesmen an the like to gain a supreme and dominating position over the work ar hand has been lost in the ether.
Such is the nature of satire. Someone out there is bound to have their conscience pricked, or is it prick conscienced?

Do you have your finger over the red button, Ash?
I'm ready. Are you?

Xx

 

[Jerome Marot]

Get someone with a good portfolio and obtain solid references. Just say what you want and how much you are paying. Cover travel, parking and food too. Give them a comfortable private and separate place to change and put on make up. Have a chaperone if you can. Again, check references. Have a professional consent form signed before the shoot and photograph the model's driving license to be sure they are over 18 years old.

...and start by using male models.

 

[Dave Butcher]

I would warn you away from that! Asking her could get you fired as you might be considered as some authority figure and that could easily be construed as harassment or creating a hostile work environment.

Even if you just made the request, the building owners could easily face having to pay out a massive sum to her and you wouldn't get a day's severance pay! Don't be lulled into thinking that because she is friendly and likely as not very decent and approachable you are safe. Another person, knowing you asked her or actually took pictures could also claim that there was an hostile work environment. So never, never, never do what you suggest. Use Model Mayhem and enter such photography openly through the front door and thrive!

...and guess what, you are at still risk even asking her out for coffee, if you are known to have photography on your mind!

Asher

That is the reason I have not asked her is because in this day and age the simplest comment or question could get a person fired.

 

[Dave Butcher]

Dave,

One cannot promise to help a one in their career unless you are indeed in that position of influence power and experience! So avoid any hints. It's quite simple. There are models for fashion, art nudes glamor, boudoir for example, who have styles they follow. Get someone with a good portfolio and obtain solid references.,Just say what you want and how much you are paying. Cover travel, parking and food too. Give them a comfortable private and separate place to change and put on make up. Have a chaperone if you can. Again, check references. Have a professional consent form signed before the shoot and photograph the model's driving license to be sure they are over 18 years old.

Plan what you are doing, make up artist if need be, clothes, lighting and location.

Pay the model immediately and give them at least 2 pictures for their website as jpg 8x10 files to print. Don't make the model part of your social life, tolerate pill taking or think of the person as a potential date. Treat as a colleague and as one would expect to be treated yourself in a professional situation.

If the clothes are not set right or hair is off, ask him/her to change it. That's where an assistant comes in handy!

........ But here I agree with Tom, for once, you're on to a good thing with your street photography of homeless veterans and the like, as you already understand the denizens you photograph well. That human connection puts you well ahead of most and that's, in a way, your strength here and advantage. You have to know your little world as well as God know his!

However, if you wish to shoot models, then do it the right way and as a start, the pointers I have given you will help you at least get started comfortably.

Asher

Thank you Asher, it has been a thought a few times but I do not think I will ever go that route as I really enjoy the Street Photography and Photo Journalism. There are some things that I will shoot in Still Life and posed but I would rather catch the candid moments in life.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thank you Asher, it has been a thought a few times but I do not think I will ever go that route as I really enjoy the Street Photography and Photo Journalism. There are some things that I will shoot in Still Life and posed but I would rather catch the candid moments in life.

The intimacy you can achieve with your current life skills are missing in a lot of other folk's street work. OTOH, to achieve that level of believabilty, (and worth), shooting subjects, undressed, is a whole other story! I find it very time consuming and always a challenge. Also, just because someone shoots artistic nudes well, does not mean they could sample real life as well! ( A successful wedding photographer, on the other hand, might do well in either arena, as they are trained, disciplined and experienced to be imaginative, cover all the basis in a fixed time without repeats and actually, deliver what is expected to be worth getting cash for. But that's a back breaking pressured profession and not for the front of heart, LOL!)

As you have a lot of satisfaction taking samples of life around you and you are not fearful of getting up close, then this is your rich playground and you are blessed!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

I would warn you away from that! Asking her could get you fired as you might be considered as some authority figure and that could easily be construed as harassment or creating a hostile work environment.

Even if you just made the request, the building owners could easily face having to pay out a massive sum to her and you wouldn't get a day's severance pay! Don't be lulled into thinking that because she is friendly and likely as not very decent and approachable you are safe. Another person, knowing you asked her or actually took pictures could also claim that there was an hostile work environment. So never, never, never do what you suggest. Use Model Mayhem and enter such photography openly through the front door and thrive!

...and guess what, you are at still risk even asking her out for coffee, if you are known to have photography on your mind!

I sincerely hope that you are vastly exaggerating. If you are not, it is a sad country you live in. Really.

As far as I understood the legislation on harassment, it needs to be repeated to count as an offense. Simply asking once and taking yes or no as the answer does not and should not constitute harassment. There may be further conditions for minors and for people being in a position of authority (e.g. teachers), but that is not the case here. This being said, I am not a lawyer.

 

[Jerome Marot]

...and start by using male models.

I hesitate to put that a second time on the table, but I sense a large elephant in the room. It seems that everybody here assumes the model is female and young and the photographer male. IMO, this is wrong on many levels. Amongst many points:

-it assumes that women would need special protection. Male models, particularly the ones catering for the homosexual market, are at a risk at least as high. Also, Israel has female conscription and teaches krav maga.

-it assumes that male photographers can only photograph women. I am not interested sexually in men, and I would think that it should be easier to start with male models, because it removes sexuality from the equation. Moreover, there is actually a relatively large demand for male nude photography, as far as I know it is a relatively underserved market.

-there are actually almost as many female photographers than male photographers. I find it unfair to ignore them. The problems they face are symmetric, but still different. Moreover, a fair percentage of women are actually quite receptive to male erotica, the subject of "exploitative titillation" should not ignore that context.

-it assumes that the (female) model is young. We should know better.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Jerome,

I hesitate to put that a second time on the table, but I sense a large elephant in the room. It seems that everybody here assumes the model is female and young and the photographer male. IMO, this is wrong on many levels. Amongst many points:

-it assumes that women would need special protection. Male models, particularly the ones catering for the homosexual market, are at a risk at least as high. Also, Israel has female conscription and teaches krav maga.

-it assumes that male photographers can only photograph women. I am not interested sexually in men, and I would think that it should be easier to start with male models, because it removes sexuality from the equation. Moreover, there is actually a relatively large demand for male nude photography, as far as I know it is a relatively underserved market.

-there are actually almost as many female photographers than male photographers. I find it unfair to ignore them. The problems they face are symmetric, but still different. Moreover, a fair percentage of women are actually quite receptive to male erotica, the subject of "exploitative titillation" should not ignore that context.

-it assumes that the (female) model is young. We should know better.

All well said. Thank you.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

I sincerely hope that you are vastly exaggerating. If you are not, it is a sad country you live in. Really.

As far as I understood the legislation on harassment, it needs to be repeated to count as an offense. Simply asking once and taking yes or no as the answer does not and should not constitute harassment. There may be further conditions for minors and for people being in a position of authority (e.g. teachers), but that is not the case here. This being said, I am not a lawyer.

Unfortunately, there's the concept in many instituions of "Zero tolerance".

We've the situation in schools of little kids being labelled as offenders for kissing another child! We have had a girl marked as a sex offender for posting nude pictures of herself or for sexting! But as adults it's far worse!

At work, my accountant had to fire a co-worker, a very wonderful nerdy fellow, who put his arm around the secretary, wanting to her ask her out on a date. He'd seen many long-time employees do that and bravely did the same. The boss told my friend, "It's really quite simple, I need to establish with the local government agencies, this company's strong defense of women. By firing this one man, we establish that we protect the weak and defenseless. We decrease exposure to litigation! "What if I refuse?" Again, it's quite simple, I'll have someone else fire the chap, but first I'll fire you myself

In a larger company, with a "Human Resources" department, there would be a written report and warning and the person would be on fast track to being fired as soon as a new record could be devised and written up. It admittedly depends on how valued an employee is and how replaceable the person might be. But most responses for ordinary folk are vigorous and immediate.

For "victims", victimhood doesn't needed to be proven as in a case of theft or physical assault. The person can claim a "hostile work environment". There are also special categories for being black, Hispanic, Native American, partially disabled, obese or otherwise apparently often taken advantage of, impaired or in need of protection. The basis for this sensitivity comes from real history of abuse to minorities and people with disabilities. However, now with institutionalization of remedies, the system goes to extremes to preemptively protect itself from monetary damages, by proving that they have a proven record of no tolerance whatsoever for abuse to coworkers.

As a consequence, (and other selfish reasoning), there's a growing use of "contract labor" where one doesn't employ most of the workers, just contracts with a third part to enjoy the headaches of such complains, valid or not!

Asher

 

[James Lemon]

Some universities have policies that say that if you stare at a woman for longer than 11 seconds is harassment .

 

[Asher Kelman]

So this is why I warned Dave off of asking his "nice" coworker to be his model.

Keeping totally above reproach is easy. Just photograph landscapes!

Asher

 

[Michael Nagel]

Asher,

We've the situation in schools of little kids being labelled as offenders for kissing another child! We have had a girl marked as a sex offender for posting nude pictures of herself or for sexting! But as adults it's far worse!

This touches the subject of age of criminal responsibility. The US has the lowest limit for this world-wide (only 15 states have set a minimum age ranging 6 to 12 years, source).
It is a difficult subject, but the 'one size fits it all' approach may not be suitable for every case (I am not a laywer).

Back on topic:

When talking about nude photography, we have at least three people involved:
1. The model.
2. The photographer.
3. The viewer.

So when you ask the question:

Art or exploitative titillation?

The answer can be different for each party involved.

Best regards,
Michael

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,


This touches the subject of age of criminal responsibility. The US has the lowest limit for this world-wide (only 15 states have set a minimum age ranging 6 to 12 years, source).
It is a difficult subject, but the 'one size fits it all' approach may not be suitable for every case (I am not a laywer).

Back on topic:

When talking about nude photography, we have at least three people involved:
1. The model.
2. The photographer.
3. The viewer.

So when you ask the question:

The answer can be different for each party involved.

Michael,

Yes, it's absurd to stigmatize little kids for what is essentially pretty harmless behavior in most cases.

The 3 classes of participants you've delineated are so important to us here. We can at least define for ourselves, the photographer and the model, our framework for the processes involved.

For myself, I request, at the outset, a driver's license to verify that the person is at least 18 years old. Next, the model has to be comfortable with the picture and what is expected of them. The use of the picture should be clarified. I insist on full rights to use as I wish, including any kind of post production, but excluding publication in obviously pornographic magazines.

My rules is to Never have someone do something one realizes makes the photographer or the model uncomfortable. Be prepared to stop the session if the model changes his or her mind or if there is any kind of resentment or upset. This has to be a collaborative project, even when the person is paid.

As to the misuse of nude photography by another person, one cannot and wouldn't want to control the minds of all observers. However, at least we can present the work in an appropriate setting.

That is my practice and is offered again, not as any legal advice, but rather as the minimum good practice. For sure, one has a large responsibility and risk in "invading" another person's private world. For it to be successful, it has to be a freely exchanged and l dignified collaboration.

Others have suggested joining a figure drawing group to be accustomed to working with the nude in art. I think that is great advice!

 

[Dave Butcher]

I would warn you away from that! Asking her could get you fired as you might be considered as some authority figure and that could easily be construed as harassment or creating a hostile work environment.

Even if you just made the request, the building owners could easily face having to pay out a massive sum to her and you wouldn't get a day's severance pay! Don't be lulled into thinking that because she is friendly and likely as not very decent and approachable you are safe. Another person, knowing you asked her or actually took pictures could also claim that there was an hostile work environment. So never, never, never do what you suggest. Use Model Mayhem and enter such photography openly through the front door and thrive!

...and guess what, you are at still risk even asking her out for coffee, if you are known to have photography on your mind!

Asher

In the industry I work in it is not uncommon at all to have Maintenance Techs accused of doing something that is inappropriate. The issue has happened to me and I am very leery of any kind of issue that would cause any kind of thought towards "inappropriate behavior". You know what Asher she is young enough to be my daughter and she is of the age that my son would have been if he were alive today. Anyway that said I do not and will not do anything with her or any of the other people I work with unless it is a company event outside of work hours and when I do snap photos of any of them I share them with them and with all of the people I work with.

I sincerely hope that you are vastly exaggerating. If you are not, it is a sad country you live in. Really.

As far as I understood the legislation on harassment, it needs to be repeated to count as an offense. Simply asking once and taking yes or no as the answer does not and should not constitute harassment. There may be further conditions for minors and for people being in a position of authority (e.g. teachers), but that is not the case here. This being said, I am not a lawyer.

Jerome the United States is a country that states we have the right of free speech but those that comment about our President get audited (I know this one because since Obama was in office three years I have been against him and I have been audited since I am very vocal about his way of doing things), I am a southern boy who believes in Southern States Rights and I cannot express those thoughts without being dubbed a RACIST, I have had friends in the Property Management Industry who have hooked up with residents only to loose their jobs for Inappropriate Behavior With a Resident when the relationship went south. We are a country that those of us that were born here do not have the rights that we should have, and yet those that come into our country illegally can go to DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and get a drivers license, we are a country where if you are a Police Officer and you shot and kill somebody the press, and the general public automatically think you are wrong and if you are not fired and put in prison there are riots. We are a country where if you are young and do not want to listen to your teacher you have the right to physically assault her and it is all due to your upbringing.

Yes the United States is a mess but you know what I love it here. And like Asher said if I asked the Housekeeper to let me photograph her nude or even topless I would be risking a Sexual Harassment Complaint that at the very least would put a red flag up towards me and knowing the company I work for and with the laws in the State of Nevada I would end up getting fire for just cause. And that is why I have not even thought about asking her other than my comments here

 

[Asher Kelman]

....and at that company party, leave the camera behind. Even that can be construed as stalking or inappropriate attention! Remember that if you have earned seniority in a company, one way of increasing the bottom line for investors is simply to turn over middle level management and then pay scales start lower again! Think about it. You do not limp and you do not shriek out to demons every once in a while, and your stock is likely 100% Western European. So you're not protected as a minority. It's not a matter of doing something wrong and getting punished. Rather it's a matter of allowing yourself to be mislabeled as an excuse to getting someone else in for less. Photography can be construed as uninvited interest in an employee. The conversation might go like this.

"Janet, did you ask Dave to take that obviously suggestive picture of you, because that really doesn't make us look good!"u

She looks puzzled, "What?"

"So you didn't give him lead him on or give him permission to take that shot?", the manager asks!

"Well not exactly?" She replies.

"So he did this without consent then?"

"I guess so!" she has to admit!

"I'm so sorry this happened to you Janet. I know you are always acting professionally. Remember, we're always on your side! First thing in the morning, Human Resources will contact you to get your statement to that effect in writing!"

So there you are, perfectly legally, there can be a report and complaint against you just for snapping a picture as she wiggled in a dance or showed a tad to much cleavage.

Holiday parties are a trap for the naive workers who feel they are free to unwind. Not so. This is work and you are being watched if that is what they wish to do.

OTOH, a senior and valued executive might simply get a complaining worker paid off and moved to a different part of the company. It's not a matter of "Rights" but of expediency.

Asher

 

[Dave Butcher]

This is very true Asher. Very much true. That is why the picture of her in the shop was shown to her today, in front of the Property Manager and the Maintenance Supervisor, and why she was sent a copy of it via text message and why a hard copy of the photo was given to her. Because I want her to know that if I take a photo of her I will always make her aware of it and share it with the rest of the staff in front of her. I am trying to be a hundred percent above board with her. And by the way she loved the photo and thought it was one that her father and mother and the rest of her family would like. And there was nothing suggestive about it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Better still, choose the denizens in the street, AA, the Church homeless program a Fireman's meeting. But not at work. You never know what agendas are at play. What if she says thank you and gives you a hug and kiss...and another person said that made them feel embarrassed? You could even give a woman a compliment that she appreciates and then another woman feels you did that on purpose to exclude her and make her feel less valued! That is the nature of a "hostile work environment" taken to the nth, as it is today, if that suits them, for you, that is, this particular week!

If they were having an outside inspection of the facilities in the coming week, then they would just pat you on the back and ignore what happened, chucking down the hallway!

If you go in a store you can say whatever you like. But at work, best to just be courteous, friendly and keep your cards face down.

Just remember that because you are who your are, you've no claims to protection, your camera acts as a lightening rod. You give anyone with designs, an easy excuse. Then it's a matter of the person being exploited is the photographer!

Asher

 

[Dave Butcher]

Better still, choose the denizens in the street, AA, the Church homeless program a Fireman's meeting. But not at work. You never know what agendas are at play. What if she says thank you and gives you a hug and kiss...and another person said that made them feel embarrassed? You could even give a woman a compliment that she appreciates and then another woman feels you did that on purpose to exclude her and make her feel less valued! That is the nature of a "hostile work environment" taken to the nth, as it is today, if that suits them, for you, that is, this particular week!

If they were having an outside inspection of the facilities in the coming week, then they would just pat you on the back and ignore what happened, chucking down the hallway!

If you go in a store you can say whatever you like. But at work, best to just be courteous, friendly and keep your cards face down.

Asher

Since we have been talking about this Asher I have come to that same conclusion and will do that.

 

[Tom dinning]

I hesitate to put that a second time on the table, but I sense a large elephant in the room. It seems that everybody here assumes the model is female and young and the photographer male. IMO, this is wrong on many levels. Amongst many points:

-it assumes that women would need special protection. Male models, particularly the ones catering for the homosexual market, are at a risk at least as high. Also, Israel has female conscription and teaches krav maga.

It might be worth considering a few facts, instead of IMO or heresay, Jerome.
These are the FACTS in Australia. I doubt they would be less intense in most other countries and moreso is quite a few.
http://www.casa.org.au/casa_pdf.php?document=statistics.
I'm not sure what relevance female conscription has, or the teaching of a mystical art of self defence.
Special protection? Greater consideration is more appropriate in the light of the figures.

-it assumes that male photographers can only photograph women. I am not interested sexually in men, and I would think that it should be easier to start with male models, because it removes sexuality from the equation. Only from your equation, Jerome, although you might change your mind if I posed for you.Moreover, there is actually a relatively large demand for male nude photography, as far as I know it is a relatively underserved market.

-there are actually really? I'd like to see the numbers on that. almost as many female photographers than male photographers. I find it unfair to ignore themthey are not ignored. They would be incorporated into the numbers and discussion as usual. But when 90% of the offenders are men and 5% of victims are men, and thats just for physical assault, I would think its time for us to see more than just an elephant. The elephant might just be MEN and we are scared shitless to admit it or do something about it.. The problems they face are symmetric, but still different. Moreover, a fair percentage of women are actually quite receptive to male erotica, the subject of "exploitative titillation" should not ignore that context.this is the sort of school child attitude that its OK for them so it must be OK for us. Give me breathe to draw so I might get through this!

-it assumes that the (female) model is young. We should know better.

We can't deny responsibility because someone else is is feeling left out or hasn't been considered or is doing whatever it is.
Action is progressive. Negotiation is progressive. Change is slow. Education is tedious.

 

[Jerome Marot]

We can't deny responsibility because someone else is is feeling left out or hasn't been considered or is doing whatever it is.
Action is progressive. Negotiation is progressive. Change is slow. Education is tedious.

I am not denying responsibility or saying it is ok for anyone and I don't have to answer posts where you misconstruct what I wrote. I am sure you'll understand.

The title of this thread is "Your views on photographing art nudes" and I am staying in the specific context of photography.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Dave,

I agree, the housekeeper at your facility is way cute.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

This thread is being temporarily closed to separate new ideas that have popped up. The idea is to have a place where the important issue of exploitation in nude photography is addressed.

Other topics are also very much worth discussing so remember your ideas.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thread reopened to discuss exploitation in the process or consequence of nude photography. We assume that there is a valid place for photography of nudes. Not that all such photography is harmless.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Thread reopened to discuss exploitation in the process or consequence of nude photography. We assume that there is a valid place for photography of nudes. Not that all such photography is harmless.

Not that all of any kind of photography is harmless.

And are we even sure what "nude" photography is? Is photography of a woman with half of one areola exposed to view "nude"? What about a man with all of one areola exposed? What about a woman fully dressed but with one breast totally in view? Is she "nude"? "Partially nude"? What about a woman who is nude from the elbows to the fingertips?

What about a woman who had a unilateral radical mastectomy wearing a swimsuit that fully exposed that half of her chest (saw some absolutely charming work of this sort recently, including this):

Apparently originally from the New York Daily News.
Used under "fair use" doctrine​

What about taking a photograph of just the face of a woman who is wearing no clothes at the time? What about a full-length photograph of a woman fully clothed but whose shorts are so tight that the outline of her vulva is clearly revealed (that is certainly not "nude" photography, but . . .).

I know this seems like just semantic prattle. But if we are going to examine in "great earnest" some topic, it might be good to know just what it is. Often trying to define just what we are speaking of helps to reveal the futility of the whole matter.

Well, time to take a shower and get dressed so I can make the monthly exchange of backup hard drives with their counterparts from my safety deposit box. I am comforted to know that there I know exactly what I am doing. Well, mostly. There's a lot of exploitation at work there. But not of women. That might occur if I asked Carla to go to the bank instead.

I'll be delighted to see the final conclusions of this exercise.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



Not that all of any kind of photography is harmless.

And are we even sure what "nude" photography is? Is photography of a woman with half of one areola exposed to view "nude"? What about a man with all of one areola exposed? What about a woman fully dressed but with one breast totally in view? Is she "nude"? "Partially nude"? What about a woman who is nude from the elbows to the fingertips?

What about a woman who had a unilateral radical mastectomy wearing a swimsuit that fully exposed that half of her chest (saw some absolutely charming work of this sort recently, including this):

Apparently originally from the New York Daily News.
Used under "fair use" doctrine​

What about taking a photograph of just the face of a woman who is wearing no clothes at the time? What about a full-length photograph of a woman fully clothed but whose shorts are so tight that the outline of her vulva is clearly revealed (that is certainly not "nude" photography, but . . .).

I know this seems like just semantic prattle. But if we are going to examine in "great earnest" some topic, it might be good to know just what it is. Often trying to define just what we are speaking of helps to reveal the futility of the whole matter.

Well, time to take a shower and get dressed so I can make the monthly exchange of backup hard drives with their counterparts from my safety deposit box. I am comforted to know that there I know exactly what I am doing. Well, mostly. There's a lot of exploitation at work there. But not of women. That might occur if I asked Carla to go to the bank instead.

I'll be delighted to see the final conclusions of this exercise.

Best regards,

Doug

It's not really futile, Doug! Look at the camera's eye, like the use of other tools. A knife can chop up salad or, grabbed by an intruder or someone inflamed with passion, end up doing severe harm to some unfortunate person!

.......and your picture is fabulous. I like the idea that she can celebrate herself despite the mastectomy! Bravo for her.

The showing of the outlined Vulva is no different, IMHO, than the showing of any other sexually explicit part of the body in our western society. It's inappropriate in normal dress. Of a young girl, it's pornography and illegal. For an adult it may be exploitative or not depending on the context. When the person has no idea that the camera sees that well, then the picture is inappropriate, at the very least. If it's a movie star, it's tough but open to sharing. Them are the rules! Public figures are less protected as they have lower expectations of privacy when in the public arena. They should expect to be scrutinized as that is the common practice.

The simple protection is the wise use of a mirror before leaving the house!

I tend to routinely delete such photographs taken of folk who have no idea, that to the camera, they are essentially rather unclothed.

That I think is worth commending to one's practice!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Hi, Asher,



Not that all of any kind of photography is harmless.

And are we even sure what "nude" photography is? Is photography of a woman with half of one areola exposed to view "nude"? What about a man with all of one areola exposed? What about a woman fully dressed but with one breast totally in view? Is she "nude"? "Partially nude"? What about a woman who is nude from the elbows to the fingertips?

What about a woman who had a unilateral radical mastectomy wearing a swimsuit that fully exposed that half of her chest (saw some absolutely charming work of this sort recently, including this):

Apparently originally from the New York Daily News.
Used under "fair use" doctrine​

What about taking a photograph of just the face of a woman who is wearing no clothes at the time? What about a full-length photograph of a woman fully clothed but whose shorts are so tight that the outline of her vulva is clearly revealed (that is certainly not "nude" photography, but . . .).

I know this seems like just semantic prattle. But if we are going to examine in "great earnest" some topic, it might be good to know just what it is. Often trying to define just what we are speaking of helps to reveal the futility of the whole matter.

Well, time to take a shower and get dressed so I can make the monthly exchange of backup hard drives with their counterparts from my safety deposit box. I am comforted to know that there I know exactly what I am doing. Well, mostly. There's a lot of exploitation at work there. But not of women. That might occur if I asked Carla to go to the bank instead.

I'll be delighted to see the final conclusions of this exercise.

Best regards,

Doug

All well said and a fabulous image. Thank you.

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Jerome,

All well said and a fabulous image. Thank you.

Thank you!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Jerome Marot]

Shouldn't we continue with the discussion about exploitative titillation?