Portraits of a woman

[Klaus Esser]

would you tell me your spontaneous feelings?

thanks.
best, Klaus

 

[Asher Kelman]

would you tell me your spontaneous feelings?

This first picture appears to be of a young woman outside in the bright sunshine. So there's little detail. This may have been further smoothed out by the limited tonal distribition.

She's pretty, in a handsome way, but not a woman that puts herself into the world, right now, as glamorous sexual young thing. Although she is not seductive, she's perhaps open to new things. She'd be fun to slip away for a weekend with, if one was free to do so!

At first, the second woman sems older.

Perhaps the picture taken now is also of the same lady we first discussed. Here she's standing for whom she really is. Her age has not been hidden and she rests on what she has accomplished. There seem to be no pretences, no artifice; just a woman one would love to meet. She has been photographed expressly to showcase her confidence, like someone who has done things and is educated. She greets us but is not solicitous. The picture has made little attempt to obscure the skin changes that garnish us with time. There are no apologies or subterfuge or pretense to deny this patina of time.

I think these are pictures of the same good woman. The first picture may well have been edited along both borders of the face to present a smooth edge.

That's my take, I am either brave, foolish or both to have expressed myself so bluntly and perhaps utterly wrong. However, good or bad, that's my take!

Asher

 

[Ray West]

Hi Asher,

Same woman, same day, same background, same ear ring, different effect bright-smiling == young, youth; dark, sombre == aged. But, she's taken her jacket off in the second one.

Best wishes,

Ray

But I could be wrong

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Asher!

Thanks a lot for your words. It´s indeed two pictures of the same woman and shot for a folder for her business. It seems a bit difficult for me, because i like the second shot better - but clearly the first one maybe more suitable for the job.

I´m glad to have a reaction from "outside" - your feelings much are like mine to the expression of her in the picture. Sometimes it´s hard to judge the own work - of cause it can´t be objective.

thanks again for your detailed description of you impressions!

best, Klaus

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Klaus

I'm far from a specialist, but I wanted to give try to steal some years of this nice woman, what eyes!

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hello Nicolas!

When i first saw the picture on the display, this came to my mind and i lit it up the way you did.
But then i decided to leave it darker - i felt it shows her more like she really is. A bit mysterious, hidden, observing (?) or watching closely.
I felt, it suits her better, is more realistic.
But - thanks for your clue anyway! It´s also a way to see her.

Having done fashion- and beauty-photography for years, i nowadays feel more attracted by a more "edgy", a more natural or realistic view of avoiding the "good looking" smoothness and searching a kind of "purity" in a face, sort of nakedness - as Ray said: "she's taken her jacket off" .

best, Klaus

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Klaus
I can easily agree with you...
I was quite fascinating by the 1st portrait but found that hilights were too burned out, so I did this try.
Now we can wonder which one she does prefer for her, as yourself says "the first one maybe more suitable for the job"...-) wasn't it the purpose of the portrait?-)

Have a cool night

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Nicolas!

<wasn't it the purpose of the portrait?-)>

Indeed! but . . . . ;-)

funny: i know her for over 30 years . . i photographed her when she was a beautyful girl at 18 and now is an interesting and still beautyful woman.

best, klaus

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Nicolas, wjat did you do to her?

Those of us newer to retouching are curious - what did you do to brighten her and turn the clock back?

Klaus - beautiful images!

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Kathy!

"Klaus - beautiful images!"

Thank you, Kathy!
To be honest: they ARE retouched - even the second one . . .
I used manually the dot-tool with the mid-tones, set on 2, soft tip. I always work with a wacom-tablet and pressure-sensitive pen.
I don´t use softeners and filters - just manually dot/burn and sometimes clone at about 40%.
The art of retouching is: minimalism. Not recognizable at first sight.

best, Klaus

 

[Ray West]

Well Klaus, your first one looks like 26 years old, the second, maybe 40. When I said she'd taken her jacket off, there was no hidden meaning. After Asher had broke the ice, I was pretty certain it was the same person, and you were trying 'some trickery' to catch us out. (I actually composed and posted my reply before I saw your response to Asher, that happens a lot.) All I could detect were the items I mentioned - ear ring, etc. You/she had cunningly hidden the watch by the folding of arms. I did a quick contrast adjust in Irfan view, to get more shadow detail, since the sleeve of the jacket confused me - in one it was a ribbed tight fitting, the other slack. But I could detect the same texture in the garment near her neck, so it became apparent in one she was wearing a jacket on top of a sweater.

My 'could be wrong' was it may have been mother and daughter.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi Kathy!

"Klaus - beautiful images!"

Thank you, Kathy!
To be honest: they ARE retouched - even the second one . . .
I used manually the dot-tool with the mid-tones, set on 2, soft tip. I always work with a wacom-tablet and pressure-sensitive pen.
I don´t use softeners and filters - just manually dot/burn and sometimes clone at about 40%.
The art of retouching is: minimalism. Not recognizable at first sight.

best, Klaus

What do you mean by the "dot-tool"? Or do you mean dodge?

Did you smooth off the edge of the face in the first picture?

It seems to have an awefully strait transition with few pixels at the junction. I expect this when an area has been erased but the edge not blended. Edges are always tough to conceal when altered. The curved portions show a gewntle gradation in pixel hues and tonality absent from the straight portion.

In fact, could you post the orginal of the first picture!

Asher

 

[kombizz kashani]

I like the second image.
Showing the process of aging with beautiful facial characters.

 

[Klaus Esser]

Hi Ray!

<When I said she'd taken her jacket off, there was no hidden meaning. >

I really think, that´s a brilliant description! I saw it as a synonym for "taking off masks and beeing pure".
Even if you didn´t have that in mind: it´s really very good!

Hi Asher!

Yes - sorry - i meant the dodge-tool . . .

Here´s the original:

best, Klaus

 

[Michael Fontana]

It looks like two moments, or two faces of the same person, to me.

Not beeing in portrait shots at all, I like its natural attitude, sort of privat picts: one can feel a "parth" of that women, not just a official, aka "business mask", but a parth of her soul.

Does b&w leads me to these thoughts; a bit?

edit: I didn't had read your "taking off masks and beeing pure", prior to post.

 

[Klaus Esser]

It looks like two moments, or two faces of the same person, to me.

Not beeing in portrait shots at all, I like its natural attitude, sort of privat picts: one can feel a "parth" of that women, not just a official, aka "business mask", but a parth of her soul.

Does b&w leads me to these thoughts; a bit?

edit: I didn't had read your "taking off masks and beeing pure", prior to post.

Hi Michael!

Yes - i think b&w underlines the sensitivity. It´s more abstract ;-) than color . . .
She asked me to do the photos of her after she had some conventional "portraits" done by a more typical "portrait-photographer" and was very disappointed. It really looked boring . . wasn´t her.
Streamlined, lifeless.

best, Klaus

 

[nicolas claris]

Those of us newer to retouching are curious - what did you do to brighten her and turn the clock back?

Bonjour Kathy
1- Highlight and shadow
2- levels
3- some cloning in the left corner (on the right when looking @ the pic) of he mouth.

That's all

 

[Asher Kelman]

My take, everyone, in particular referencing the creative contributions by Nicolas and Klaus:

I would do a manouver something like you would do but in a different way. I'd work until it is the best I can do. Then there's a key step.

I go away from the image and do something else. That's what I do. Now add back the largest percent of the original image of the woman without negating all your creative work. Decide how to blend it too. One can experiment.

This method recalibrates the brain so we don't end up with an image emptied of meaning and ending up looking plastic.

You may not need to do this. But at least I always try to add back. It is never wring.

Hope this works for you too,

Asher

 

[Klaus Esser]

My take, everyone, in particular referencing the creative contributions by Nicolas and Klaus:

I would do a manouver something like you would do but in a different way. I'd work until it is the best I can do. Then there's a key step.

I go away from the image and do something else. That's what I do. Now add back the largest percent of the original image of the woman without negating all your creative work. Decide how to blend it too. One can experiment.

This method recalibrates the brain so we don't end up with an image emptied of meaning and ending up looking plastic.

You may not need to do this. But at least I always try to add back. It is never wring.

Hope this works for you too,

Asher

Hi Asher!

This is always a good thing - a breake. Having a coffee before working on . .

Nicolas and i, we are close together in this picture thing i think. It´s minor diffrences in the end - just more a feeling of tones or gradations.
That´s what makes it interesting and challenging to work with pictures !

best, Klaus

 

[Asher Kelman]

I really have issues, Klaus, with removing nature.

Imagine using photoshop to smooth waves or the bark of a tree because they were rough!

I really feel that Nicolas' modification are immediately pleasant but for long term, at least for me unsatisfying. One has been robbed.

Now if one is going to do this smoothing, then the wrinkles in the hand have to be removed, or else the pale smooth skin now becomes a glove with some redundant leather at the wrist.

So it becomes a tiger chasing it's tail and it is very difficult to pull back.

That's why I struggle with it.

By keeping in mind the play of light on the water and the meaning of the texture of the covering of trees, I am less inclined to be aggressive in photography of women. Yes I do it to. However, if we can, we should reduce the changes after we think it is just right. Then it might be OK.

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

I really have issues, Klaus, with removing nature.

Imagine using photoshop to smooth waves or the bark of a tree because they were rough!

I really feel that Nicolas' modification are immediately pleasant but for long term, at least for me unsatisfying. One has been robbed.

Hi Asher

this is typically depending of the "why"
Can you imagine the amount of retouching that is done on photos of models?
the amount of retouching I have to do to some boats for advertising, suppressing bad plies in sails, cleaning dirty hulls underwater, spots on paint etc...

These are for advertising, but also for the rest of the world, when I shoot a picture, I search for the best angle, the best light, the right lens in order to show MY vision.
This is part of my arc of intent.

Even in tourists snapshots there is no real truth.

This aspect is a complete different matter if we speak photojournalism... this is completely different.

Otherwise, this beautifull lady with which we had the great pleasure to start this thread, she certainly did use some make-up before the photo-shoot.
What is the difference there, between before or after "retouch"?
is one fake and not the other?

You know that I am a lover of truth, but I must recognize that I do prefer MY truth ;-)

Some more wine?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well said!

I agree with you and will put aside my tea and go for some wine!

Asher

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I agree with you and will put aside my tea and go for some wine!

Just make sure it's the right time of day (like the afternoon or later), although in France it wouldn't matter much (except for breakfast). I've experienced (by the way excellent) champagne for lunch (and beyond) there, so I'm tolerant (except for breakfast). The global time differences will offer some challenges/opportunities

...

Bart

 

[nicolas claris]

Well Bart, once again it depends, in some popular bars (by popular I mean where workers go before getting to work -ala Chaplin's "Les temps modernes"- barmen sells more "p'tit blanc sec" than coffee.
Though this was more true in the fifties and the sixties than now in the "pasteurized" society that Mr. Sarkozy is preparing for us (French). We gonna get our own little Bush (54% as the last polls said).

Bad days :/(

So here it's morning, I had some tea but I may change my mind soon… ÷-)

 

[Michael Fontana]

>sixties than now in the "pasteurized" society that Mr. Sarkozy is preparing for us (French). We gonna get our own little Bush (54% as the last polls said).<

What's about "pastized"? Still common after work, le pastis?

Sarko: I hope, we won't get invaded ;-)

 

[nicolas claris]

>sixties than now in the "pasteurized" society that Mr. Sarkozy is preparing for us (French). We gonna get our own little Bush (54% as the last polls said).<

What's about "pastized"? Still common after work, le pastis?

Sarko: I hope, we won't get invaded ;-)

Yes! Pastis is still served by barmen though more in Marseille area than here in Bordeaux.

I do like it as a "Mauresque" it is with a bit of almond syrup... some Olives... I'm done! and can forget Sarkozy.

OK, I promise, I will toast OPF tonight with a Mauresque, while sitting with my wife and son in a nice terrasse under the evening sun... after work

 

[Klaus Esser]

"in a nice terrasse under the evening sun... after work"

. . sigh . . i used to do that some years ago. We several times went to Haut de Cagne - wonderful place - and sat on most terrasses between Nice and Juan le Pin . . .

best, Klaus

(roughly scanned with a Coolscan some years ago)

 

[Ray West]

Hi Klaus,

I keep coming back to this thread.

I think your first image - the young smiling one - is like that, because the higher contrast/blown highlights (sounds wrong saying that about any of your images, hope you know what I mean) plus the different bluer? shade of black, makes the picture itself look as if taken by a more basic camera from 30 years ago, the print having faded or whatever.

You have a post of the original image further down, iirc.

I wonder if it would be worth starting a new thread showing just those two images, and seeing if it can be done so that we can take off the years in the different ways - e,g. now, aged 40, 35, 30, 25 say, and also 'in the style of' the 1970's, 1950's, 1930's etc.

I am pretty hopeless at pp, but it may encourage me to at least try.

If you think its worthwhile, then it will need to done soon, so Nicholas can get in some more pp in B&W, before he has to flee his country ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Klaus Esser]

"If you think its worthwhile, then it will need to done soon, so Nicholas can get in some more pp in B&W, before he has to flee his country ;-)"

poor Nicolas . . (which one do you mean? ) - i find that´s a good idea (with the photos . . )!

I´ll put in 2 absolutely untouched originals - the first and the second ones - in a new thread. Maybe, Asher can tell me which thread it should be !?

best, Klaus

 

[Ray West]

poor Nicolas . . (which one do you mean?

He who is critical of his soon to be/maybe already, beloved leader - the one whose name I the wrong spelling of got ...

I meant this image only

and the first derivative to show an example - I can only think about one thing at a time

But you do what you think would be best, maybe an entirely different image.

Best wishes,

Ray