So what is Liberty then?

[nicolas claris]

Dawid introduced us to a wonderful vision of powerful waters off the coast of South Africa here . Nicolas brought up the idea that we should consider what Liberty means to him. Well, I thought, this is a term we use frequently but what do we mean? Asher

Normally I'd want to obey your insrtuctions, and here too! However, your picture is like a georgeous woman one has taken on a date and one wants to keep dancing with all until the club closes. I don't blame Nicolas wants to join in. I know his work with the sea, (after all, it's his life and love after his family, and before liberty I expect), that he will have ideas and technic that are likely to be valuable for you and all of us.

I'd even hope you might consider sending him a RAW image and for sure it's safe with Nicolas!

I do completely understand and respect Dawid's wish to keep his raw, my proposal is just a tonal, color and sharp work than can be shown with the low resolution.

I'll PM this version to Dawid for him to decide, nothing fundamental though!

This is my interpretation of Liberty that is far much deeper than what you think!

 

[Asher Kelman]

So what is liberty?

Nicolas you got me thinking. The meanings are so strangely varied!

The Statue of Liberty

"The Statue of Liberty was presented by the people of France to the people of the United States in 1886 to honor the friendship between the two nations. Today, it is recognized as a symbol of liberty throughout the world."


Source

The statue of liberty donated by France and the verses memorialized at it's base.

or the U.S. marines hoisting the U.S, flag over Iwo Jima?

IWO JIMA

The Use of "LIBERTY" as a slogan to unite people to mythology or faith-based points of view.

Mel Gibson obsession with martydom uses liberty as in FREEDOM Yelled by his tortured character in Brave Heart as if he was calling "Forgive them for they know what they do"!

Liberty to take?


Asher

 

[Marian Howell]

you have struck a chord with me asher (and nicolas) whose resonances require some thought and effort. being this is the week of our usa celebration of liberty followed by nicolas's a little over a week later, i now intend to ponder an image to express what liberty means to me during my photo adventures for the next week or so...i find the challenge exciting don't know if my quest will be successful but i think the journey will be stimulating.
thanks for provoking me!

 

[nicolas claris]

An old but still actual philosophical subject…

Let me try to translate the phrase with witch I've been educated since my early days…

"La liberté des uns s'arrête là où commence celle des autres"
"Freedom of some stops where begins that of the others " as simple as that.

In the case where I did answer to Asher about liberty, my liberty to post an image here were stopped by the fact that Dawid had previously asked not to... and to complete the story, I did PM him the image for him to decide to post or not, now he has the consciousness to post this image or not, the controversy is his…

But, what is the difference between Freedom and Liberty?
Is there an american and an English diferent point of view in this?

Have a nice week-end thinking!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Marian,

I'd love to see your own pictures of what Liberty means!

I have by the way, replaced on the wall my prints of "Liberty" in the French Revolution once the new President was elected in France. Not that France cares what I hang on my wall, but for a while, Chirac was annoying me and Dominique De Villepin was even worse. You see, he was just as rudely anti-American as Chirac, but also annoyingly so erudite at it!

I have always kept pictures of the French Revolution by me since it represents in the open the good, bad, kindness and treachery, the hope and despair of our civilization. Under peacedful times, we just disguise all that but it's still there.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Nicolas,

Is this even a French saying? Where dose it actually come from? Sound very right wing American! Or better yet, Libertarian!

"La liberté des uns s'arrête là où commence celle des autres"
"Freedom of some stops where begins that of the others " as simple as that.

Asher

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

Liberty has moral requirements, may be best to be described with Immanuel Kant's categorical imperativ. To achieve liberty, a revolution of priorities is the foremost requirement. Virtues and good will, excellence of the soul so to speak need to replace traditional "virtues" of greed.

Just my 2 cents

 

[nicolas claris]

Nicolas,

Is this even a French saying? Where dose it actually come from? Sound very right wing American! Or better yet, Libertarian!

Asher

Please, on such a discussion, we should avoid to have/to put labels on the forehead…

"La liberté des uns s'arrête là où commence celle des autres"
"Freedom of some stops where begins that of the others"

This is a proverb, but despite a short search on the Internet, I couldn't find who's the author.

It is in a way a popular rewording or the French Revolution's 1789 "Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" article 4 in its original version:

Article 4 - La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres membres de la société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la loi.

The complete declaration in French

Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789 Version)
4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.

Complete declaration in English

Does it still

sound very right wing American! Or better yet, Libertarian

?

 

[Asher Kelman]

PDeclaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789 Version)
4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.
Complete declaration in English
Does it still ?

Yes Nicolas, this is how Conservatives would see themselves and for sure it's the creed of the Liberals. The latter are sincerely committed to this.

Asher

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

You see, he was just as rudely anti-American as Chirac, but also annoyingly so erudite at it!

I dare to ask, what does that mean to be anti american?

I am afraid, this is the club everyone get's beaten over the head with as soon as one poses ciritic against american foreign politics, how convinient....

 

[nicolas claris]

I dare to ask, what does that mean to be anti american?

I am afraid, this is the club everyone get's beaten over the head with as soon as one poses ciritic against american foreign politics, how convinient....

So true.

Chirac (who's by far a politician not close to my "sensitivity") was not anti american but against the war in Irak (as Villepin), regrettably, he, as the said "old Europe" were right.

For this political position and decision, I am grateful to these 2 guys.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The war in Iraq was done wrong, for sure!

The action against Saddam was ill-planned and executed. One cannot stamp one's foot slowly. Had they wished to go in, they had to go in far better planned to carry out their obtained responsibility. For that they needed a plan to have overwhelming force on the ground to secure the weapons caches, deal with the army, (buy them not fight them) and provide security for ordinary people and protection for the rteligious shrines. They needed at least 5,000 Arabic speaking soldiers and adminstrators.

They were neither educated on the needs and culture of the shia different groupings nor smart enough to come in ready to manage the country with overwhelming capability.

Now, I have not discussed whether or not they should have gone in in the first place.

I don't understand why they didn't complete one project before starting another.

I medicine, I've heard the phrase, "Operation successful, patient died."

Asher

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I medicine, I've heard the phrase, "Operation successful, patient died."

"Won the war, but lost the peace", might be even more accurate.

Bart

 

[Asher Kelman]

I remember being cautioned by another physician when I was contemplating going the extra effort, pushing the envelope, taking extreme risks to deal with a particularly advanced cancer.

She shared with me this maxim, "Don't make someone else's tragedy your own disaster!"

This was wise, although I didn't always follow it. Still, keeping that in mind, remember if you take responsibility then you now own the problem.

I doubt that the Bush administration and certainly not Bush himself had any appreciation of the great history of Muslims, the Caliphates, the scholarship of the physicians, astronomers and geographers and the way the Turkish empire was administered. Not only that, but on another level, the fact that much of the Arab world relies heavily on clan and tribal councils, seems to have escaped their tectical approach and long term strategies. Why should the US army be respected when the place was thrown into turmoil and even hospitals where not secured?

For all this, the fact that the Marsh Arabs can now look forward to at least surviving and their societies are no longer considered dosposable, makes me see some positive outcome. These Arabs have been arounf for thousands of years, produced much of the food of the country but under Saddam had their water cut off, which essential kills their way of life.

Any one taking over from Saddam who wasn't equally as ruthless would have unleashed the internecine rivalry and grabs for share of the oil wealth. This is just the same as Yugoslavia which was held together by the dictatorship of Tito.

With merely an education in Texas charm, the oil business politics and "righteousness" of Christianity, George Bush was unprepared for the reality of the tensions unleashed when the bound up, repressed Iraqi groups were suddenly free from constraints.

I believe that they too were unprepared for freedom and have to test where the boundries were. Unfortunately, the US administration had not set any! So hence the chaos.

When self-interest is more powerful than dealing with the wrongs by the enemies, then there can be peace in Iraq. Since there's ample oil and ability to produce food, the sooner there are agreements on wealth sharing the faster peace will occur.

One cannot deal with hatred in the short term. However, one can deal with wealth and self interest. If that is done, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Asher

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

One cannot deal with hatred in the short term. However, one can deal with wealth and self interest. If that is done, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Unfortunately, I can not share your level of optimisim.

Geoff Hoon, the [U.K.] Defence Secretary, suggested yesterday (April 4, 2003) that mothers of Iraqi children killed by cluster bombs would “one day” thank Britain for their use.

The way this war was prepared with "intelligence" and massive media propaganda is unsurpassed, I will never forget Colin Powell shaking a salt dispenser at the security council on February 5th 2003, when he was talking about WMD's.

My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence. — U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, At the United Nations Security Council, February 5, 2003

Anyone remembers Dr. Hans Blix the UNO chief weapons inspector and the outrageous smear american campaign against him?

Ah well, I guess we were talking about liberty, so Iraq is an example for what?

The liberty of a single nation to enforce their military power whenever they see fit against the will of the majority of "sane" countries, with no mandate at all, let aside those that they bribed or threatened into the coalition of the arse kissers.

Liberty has moral requirements, without the latter there can only be one of the many phenomenon illusionary forms of freedom.

This world is driven by greed and share holder interests only, compassion and humanitarian aspects do not count in the big picture, not a single cent!

I suggest we start banning companies who's main business is death from stockmarket trading. Then again as long as the Goldman Sach's, J.P.Morgan's etc tell Joe Soap it is a good investment to buy into Raytheon shares and the likes, Liberty.... yeah well..... go figure.

beneficium accipere libertatem est vendere ....to accept a favour is to sell one's freedom.
Publilius Syrus, Sententiae (c. 43 BC)

P.S.
Liberty.... Freedom.... here is my own ironical music attempt on the subject.... from 2003. <grins>
http://www.mediafire.com/?1mmyqydqen2

 

[Asher Kelman]

Unfortunately, I can not share your level of optimisim.........
The liberty of a single nation to enforce their military power whenever they see fit against the will of the majority of "sane" countries, with no mandate at all, let aside those that they bribed or threatened into the coalition of the arse kissers.

If the premise is true that one is in the middle of a new world war pitting a the goal of a transworld Caliphate, (conversion or death and Sharia Law) against elected govenrnment, (as we value in the West), then the US view is informed and deformed by survival imperatives, nothing less

Liberty has moral requirements, without the latter there can only be one of the many phenomenon illusionary forms of freedom.

Perhaps one might better say, Liberty should have moral requiremnts.

But then what would you do if a mas of "freedom fighters" who have already chopped up all the people in the next homes, gather in the valley below you, and start to advance towards your isolated home, firing weapons and blowing up your property.

Would you do the math, say, "There's 200 of them and just the dog, my girlfriend and myself. Are 3 souls worth more than 200, albeit angry souls coming up the hill? Should I call in the British Aircaraft who I know will kill them in seconds or just let events take their course?"

So how does one compute the math?

This world is driven by greed and share holder interests only, compassion and humanitarian aspects do not count in the big picture, not a single cent!

I don't hold such a pessimestic view. The programs of the United Nations and private NGO's change the lives of women in many emerging impoverished societies, allowing them to control their destiny.

I suggest we start banning companies who's main business is death from stockmarket trading.

Exactly which companies have this as their main buisiness? I'd love to know myself. I'd like to see a comprehensive list and documentation.

The market is so diversified that I can't help having (what you may yet prove to be a false) feeling of reflex anti-American jingoism here.

beneficium accipere libertatem est vendere ....to accept a favour is to sell one's freedom.
Publilius Syrus, Sententiae (c. 43 BC)

This is a beautiful saying which at first blush has wisdom insight and experience behind it. However, it's incomplete and a rephrasing of a far older sentiment.


That's the bargain made with the devil as expressed in the

• apple offered by the snake to Eve in the Garden of Eden!
  
  
• a Faustian bargain or else
  
  
• a favor received from the Mafia or some other malveolent group.

In all these examples as in the Latin version, the favor or gift comes from an evil source. Many people I know give for the sake of helping others. That's how I was raised and how my children were brought up too. I am not over optimistic. I'm just not cynical and am an alert pragmatic optimist.

Liberty.... Freedom.... here is my own ironical music attempt on the subject.... from 2003. <grins>
http://www.mediafire.com/?1mmyqydqen2

Your music is downloading right now!

Asher

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

If the premise is true that one is in the middle of a new world war pitting a the goal of a transworld Caliphate, (conversion or death and Sharia Law) against elected govenrnment, (as we value in the West), then the US view is informed and deformed by survival imperatives, nothing less

Yeah well, I think it was Newt Gingrich who came up with this term of WW III if I am not mistaken. I intend to think this is a very clever move in deed to declare the third world war.

The notion of WWIII has implications that go much further and I am afraid this has the same quality of informing the public like the CIA informed the american public about the events in Vietnam, before they went to war.

This paranoia about a transworld caliphate is so ridiculous and out of proportion it really makes me laugh.

Perhaps one might better say, Liberty should have moral requiremnts.

But then what would you do if a mas of "freedom fighters" who have already chopped up all the people in the next homes, gather in the valley below you, and start to advance towards your isolated home, firing weapons and blowing up your property.

Would you do the math, say, "There's 200 of them and just the dog, my girlfriend and myself. Are 3 souls worth more than 200, albeit angry souls coming up the hill? Should I call in the British Aircaraft who I know will kill them in seconds or just let events take their course?"

So how does one compute the math?

Well, if that would be the case, in the unlikely event that a bunch of whackjobs armed with Ak47
would approach our humble home in Donegal, I guess these events could have been foreseen to a degree, and I probably would have left long before. But in case that this would be surprise attack, yes, I would of course defend our life by all means.

Unfortunately, often enough people in such crisis regions do no have the means to leave for good, they are stuck in the middle, with all their livelyhoods and children.

The market is so diversified that I can't help having (what you may yet prove to be a false) feeling of reflex anti-American jingoism here.

I am not in the business to proove that I am not "anti american". As for companies in the business of death, how about Raytheon as I mentioned before.

AGM-65 Maverick
AGM-129 Advanced cruise missile
AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon
AIM-7 Sparrow
AIM-9 Sidewinder
AIM-120 AMRAAM
BGM-109 Tomahawk
MIM-104 Patriot

The following is the Raytheon share performance chart over the past decade.

Note the peak of share volumes traded in the lower chart in September 2001, more than 4 times the volume traded than only 8 weeks before, right! Then the general trend in the upper chart after that?And to the more observant eye, how comes that in June 2001, out of no where Raytheon share volume trade exceeds 50 million, the highest ever? Coincidence? Yeah right, I don't think so!

So who are those people who made an "informed" profit here? Joe Soap? Nope! It does not need advanced analysis to see that such companies are outperforming the market to a high degree since 9/11. Th years of trade before 2001, I mean come on, look at the trade volumes, it tells you everything you need to know! Companies who's majority part in daily operations is weapons should be banned from trading!



Faust bargain, yes, very much so. The USA have a long history in such bargains in deed, during the Iran contra crisis, they could not find enough radical islamistic groups to be sponsored with weapons, intelligence, training and money.

Today we live in a world where death is again big business, in fact more so than ever before, and beyond doubts this contributes to the insane wealth of a handfull of already super rich people who have less altruistic tendencies than you and I.







However, let me close on a more peaceful note with a little tune I made in 2001:

http://www.mediafire.com/?fnizd0pgitl

In September 2001 I was recording my first little tunes when the unbelievable happened. Sadness sure was part of the feelings that dominated my music at this time. Matter of fact, I just took delivery of a computer dedicated for music and attempted to improvise some music by layering piano with strings and voices and adding a little synthesizer on top, as usual all played life with 2 keyboards. So here ya go, this is the first tune I ever recorded. <smile> I just came across this one while searching through some older backups. It was reocded 2 days after the attacks on the trade center.

Have a peaceful sunday my friend.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

in addition to Raytheon:

This particular baby of their production line: AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon carries BLU-97/B Combined Effetcs Bomb.

In Laymans terms "cluster bombs", in idiots terms "daisy cutters".

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-97.htm

And how clever those military blokes really are was shown in Afghanistan where the use of the BLU-97/B caused some controversy as the bright yellow color of the bomblet was the same as humanitarian ration packs handed out to civilians by U.S. forces. This reportedly led to 'dud' bomblets being mistakenly picked up resulting in death or injury. The color of the ration packs was subsequently changed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/monitoring/media_reports/1624787.stm