Aren't we better than this: inserting our ways into civilized societies.

[Asher Kelman]

"Arson and burning of Christian religious places continued on Tuesday in Kandhamal despite a curfew in all major towns and prohibitory orders in force throughout the district. Even a Flag March by paramilitary forces did not deter the rioters, who went on a rampage setting fire to churches, vehicles and government facilities. Meanwhile, it has been revealed that the woman who was burnt to death in an orphanage in Bargarh district yesterday was a Hindu. "We have verified the antecedents of the woman and found that she was a Hindu," Sambalpur DIG YB Khurania said. Initial reports had suggested that she was a nun.

I wonder whether we do the right thing, setting up massive missionary organizations to alter the course of faith in otherwise civilized ancient cultures? Today 25,000 Catholic schools in the nation of India have been closed down in protest to killings in the Eastern Indian state of Orissa. Of course, the killings are, as Prime Minister Singh declares, "A National Disgrace". But let me ask this question, What is deficient in the Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim cultures in India that requires our effort to reprogram Indian Nationals in our image? Isn't that outmoded and arrogant? Are they not moral and civilized. This is the 21st Century. Isn't this time to outlaw spiritual colonialism?

Or is there such a higher calling of our own superior values which overrides mutual respect?

A corollary, perhaps, aren't there enough destitute in the inner cities of Europe to absorb the energy of devotees of Western religions?

So I ask, are we better than this?

Catholic schools in India protest

"India's prime minister has called the violence a "national disgrace" Thousands of Catholic schools are shut across India in protest against continuing anti-Christian violence in the eastern state of Orissa. Eleven people have died after a Hindu leader was killed in the state's Kandhamal district last Saturday. Authorities said Maoist rebels were behind the killing, but some Hindu groups have accused Christians. Over 3000 police have been deployed but attacks on churches continue. Hundreds of Christians have fled their homes. The Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has described the violence as a "national disgrace". The Pope too has condemned the violence and the Italian government has also expressed its concerns. '

More help needed' The Catholic Bishops Conference of India - the highest body of Catholic Bishops - has announced that all Catholic schools and colleges across India would remain closed on Friday. The organisation runs almost 25,000 schools and colleges in India." Read the entire story from the BBC, here.

 

[doug anderson]

It's amazing that we have been to the moon and yet a large chunk of the world's population is so ignorant they can't tell the difference between a thought and a conditioned response. They don't know that they don't know. We have been spending all our money on new methods of satisfying greed and ignoring education. This is what you get. Tyrants, by the way, whether George Bush or Osama bin Laden, like their people ignorant. It's easier to get them to participate in orgies of hate.

 

[Asher Kelman]

It's amazing that we have been to the moon and yet a large chunk of the world's population is so ignorant they can't tell the difference between a thought and a conditioned response. They don't know that they don't know. We have been spending all our money on new methods of satisfying greed and ignoring education. This is what you get. Tyrants, by the way, whether George Bush or Osama bin Laden, like their people ignorant. It's easier to get them to participate in orgies of hate.

Doug,

All that is true, but why do we have to colonize their minds with our own mythologies? Is our culture and it's beliefs, so superior in a path to "salvation" that it becomes moral to insert ourselves into their culture so a to replace their belief systems with our own?

Assuming, just for argument that there's a supreme being, a deity, God as so many billions believe, then why do we assume that his/her mansion has only one entrance?

Asher

 

[Nill Toulme]

Is it not a fundamental tenet of some faiths, such as Islam and Christianity, that one should go forth and preach the True Word and seek converts to the True Way (or, failing that, simply slay the infidel)? And conversely, is it not a characteristic of some other faiths — perhaps including the Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu and Jewish faiths (or perhaps I am simply revealing my own abysmal ignorance of these faiths, in which case I apologize) — that one need not, and even perhaps should not, so proselytize? I.e., are not some faiths fundamentally expansionist, if not actually imperialist, at their very core?

Nill

 

[Asher Kelman]

My father told me, "God is not stupid", meaning people can be judged irrespective of the label they happen to be given! That seems to me a good working premise. The consequence of this thinking is that I personally find it hard to understand and accept proselytizing. Converting other faiths is not a kindness and respectful to us or to any God.

Converting Muslims: I think missionaries going to Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan or other Islamic communities to turn Muslims to Christians are short sighted and cause hatred. I do not have any deep understanding of the Muslim faith, however, I have no hints that it's fundamentally less valid than that of Western missionaries. But it doesn't end there.

Converting Christians of another denomination: Some traditions go back a thousand years. There are beautiful parts of each culture that get lost. So, what part of the Christian concept of the Holy Trinity that Armenian Orthodox, that's not good enough for all the would be proselytizers. Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians and Mormons go to Armenia and seek to reprogram them? Why? Is there actually some benefit to not being Armenian Orthodox? Can Armenian Orthodox folk not be saved if left alone?

Asher

 

[Mike Shimwell]

Hi Asher,

Just a couple of thoughts - I am deeply suspicious of the cultural imperialism that masquerades as 'missionary work' (in whatever age), but rather less suspicious of the love of those who genuinely care for their neighbours.

As you point out, Jesus said 'the poor will always be with you' - we really don't have to look far even in western europe to find the impoverished and disenfranchised.

I agree with your father - God is not stupid

Nil, expansionism is only imperialism if it seeks to rule rather than serve, and that would include imposing a different culture as well as policitcal rule in my book.

Interestingly, although I don't know much about the period and could be wrong, I believe that there was actually peace between muslim and christian during the moorish empire in Spain, and that situation may well apply in other places today. I suspect that Asher, Ben Rubenstien, Fahim, Doug and I would be able to get on very well despite varied backgrounds and beliefs, not because of pictures but mutual respect.

There is another question that I have wrestled with over time that relates to this and that is whether we can reasonably consider one culture better than another - we place a high value on the individual and on mutual respect, but this is not so in all places. Can these cultures be compared in value - what about the culture that supports the very actions that we find abhorrent - the removal of individual freedom and human rights, slavery, capital punishment without what we view as a fair trial, the diminution of women's status and value etc. I don't think these are easy questions (and this is not aimed at particular culture so please don't jump to any conclusion that I am pointing anywhere in particular!). Between individual great friendships form, even though their cultures may be at war.

I hope nothing here offends anyone!

Mike

 

[Nill Toulme]

One of my best friends once observed, "There's a lot about organized religion that doesn't survive even cursory analysis." ;-)

Nill

 

[doug anderson]

Doug,

All that is true, but why do we have to colonize the minds with our own mythologies? Is our culture and it's beliefs, so superior in a path to "salvation" that it becomes moral to insert ourselves into their culture so a to replace their belief systems with our own?

Assuming, just for argument that there's a supreme being, a deity, God as so many billions believe, then why do we assume that his/her mansion has only one entrance?

Asher

Good question. People should be educated to think for themselves. Idealistic? Yes. Is there any other choice? No. The biggest colonization of the mind is American popular culture. People will kill for a new pair of Nikes. There's no escaping it. Maybe this is what Islamist cultures mean by "the Great Satan."

The Sufis keep pointing out that all religions are identical at the core, and people keep not getting it. People don't seem as much interested in practicing their religion as condemning others.

 

[doug anderson]

Hi Asher,

Just a couple of thoughts - I am deeply suspicious of the cultural imperialism that masquerades as 'missionary work' (in whatever age), but rather less suspicious of the love of those who genuinely care for their neighbours.

As you point out, Jesus said 'the poor will always be with you' - we really don't have to look far even in western europe to find the impoverished and disenfranchised.

I agree with your father - God is not stupid

Nil, expansionism is only imperialism if it seeks to rule rather than serve, and that would include imposing a different culture as well as policitcal rule in my book.

Interestingly, although I don't know much about the period and could be wrong, I believe that there was actually peace between muslim and christian during the moorish empire in Spain, and that situation may well apply in other places today. I suspect that Asher, Ben Rubenstien, Fahim, Doug and I would be able to get on very well despite varied backgrounds and beliefs, not because of pictures but mutual respect.

There is another question that I have wrestled with over time that relates to this and that is whether we can reasonably consider one culture better than another - we place a high value on the individual and on mutual respect, but this is not so in all places. Can these cultures be compared in value - what about the culture that supports the very actions that we find abhorrent - the removal of individual freedom and human rights, slavery, capital punishment without what we view as a fair trial, the diminution of women's status and value etc. I don't think these are easy questions (and this is not aimed at particular culture so please don't jump to any conclusion that I am pointing anywhere in particular!). Between individual great friendships form, even though their cultures may be at war.

I hope nothing here offends anyone!

Mike

Mike: I'll speak to one of your points. Cultural relativism is relative. I will never believe that the extirpation of the clitoris from young girls in North African cultures is anything but criminally sadistic. I will never accept "honor killings" as anything other than murder and small mindedness. I give myself the right to do this, because I am most critical of my own culture. For example, I will never accept the predatory greed of the present U.S. corporate/government coalition because it kills for money (e.g.; Iraq) and destroys lives (e.g.; the mortgage scandal, the oil mess, etc.). This notion that we must never criticize any aspect of another culture in the name of political correctness is out of touch with reality.

 

[doug anderson]

One of my best friends once observed, "There's a lot about organized religion that doesn't survive even cursory analysis." ;-)

Nill

Nill: By the time a religion gets costumes and a bureaucracy the originating spirit is gone.

D

 

[doug anderson]

Is it not a fundamental tenet of some faiths, such as Islam and Christianity, that one should go forth and preach the True Word and seek converts to the True Way (or, failing that, simply slay the infidel)? And conversely, is it not a characteristic of some other faiths — perhaps including the Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu and Jewish faiths (or perhaps I am simply revealing my own abysmal ignorance of these faiths, in which case I apologize) — that one need not, and even perhaps should not, so proselytize? I.e., are not some faiths fundamentally expansionist, if not actually imperialist, at their very core?

Nill

Nill: Well, in a time before electronic communication or books, going by foot somewhere to disseminate your ideas made more sense, than, say, the idiot standing in Times Square waving a Bible in people's faces. People who believe that God wrote (or dictated) the Bible and that we are constrained abide by every word are hopeless.

D

 

[Asher Kelman]

Interestingly, although I don't know much about the period and could be wrong, I believe that there was actually peace between Muslim and Christian during the moorish empire in Spain, and that situation may well apply in other places today.

There have been eminent Muslim schools of thought that looked well at scholarship and discussion of philosophy and openness in addition to liturgical works of faith. During many periods, other religions were able to practice although there was often some special tax and low standing in courts of law. At times there were forced conversions. Still, overall, the other communities were tolerated and allowed to flourish. Certainly, during countless Christian pogroms against Jews in Europe, Muslim Turkey was a place of refuge.

I suspect that Asher, Ben Rubenstien, Fahim, Doug and I would be able to get on very well despite varied backgrounds and beliefs, not because of pictures but mutual respect.

There is another question that I have wrestled with over time that relates to this and that is whether we can reasonably consider one culture better than another - we place a high value on the individual and on mutual respect, but this is not so in all places.

Here we have unity. Also we do not, not any of us, I'm sure, consider us better, rather different manifestations of one human desire to be decent to each other.

Can these cultures be compared in value - what about the culture that supports the very actions that we find abhorrent - the removal of individual freedom and human rights, slavery, capital punishment without what we view as a fair trial, the diminution of women's status and value etc.

Let me jump to conclusions, face today's reality and say we are pointing a finger at militant Islam for being invasive to some of our basic human rights. We find, for example, homicide bombing abhorrent and would like to see equal rights for women. (We think the latter can be achieved without diminishing morality and protection of virtue of our daughters and sisters). But let's leave the strict restrictions on women and honor killings aside, the hospitality and friendship of Islamic peoples is second to none. We are just ignorant of most of the cultural achievements of Islamic scholars and poets. We don't include that in our school curricula. One should explore the beauty of each other's cultures, but just cannot cross the paths of militants. I have no doubt that some of their anger is with cause. The west has not been respectful. In the Middle East, the few dictators and rich families have amassed wealth for themselves by selling oil to Westerners. Little of the rewards has gone back to the poorest people. The modernity of the edges of western society that they see threatens the strictest interpretations of holy text. So there is a dangerous mix of potential riches to be shared and a faith to be protected.

Now lets deal with the protection of individual rights. We are no better! Western armies invaded South America, massacred a good part of the male population, took the women, exported the gold to Europe, enslaved populations and replaced local culture with obedience to Rome and it's Church and total obeisance to the whole story of Jesus. The gold is still in Spain except where plundered by the British or lost at the bottom of the ocean in the sunken galleons.

The Western religions burnt people at the stake! The Christians persecuted one another along lines of Protestants and Catholics. Jews were always being attacked somewhere in Europe and the Christian Armies Crusades left a path of looting, rape, death by sword and fire across Europe to the Holy Land. The victims were Jews and Muslims, they all were the enemy to be cleansed from the path of the noble cause of the cross. Of course, that's not the cloak now worn by most Christians. But that's the clothes in the wardrobe that victims remember.

I don't think these are easy questions (and this is not aimed at particular culture so please don't jump to any conclusion that I am pointing anywhere in particular!). Between individual great friendships form, even though their cultures may be at war.

I hope nothing here offends anyone!

I would only be offended if we could not discuss these issues. As photographers, if we don't have some insight to different cultures, including our own, we will lose out on being able to see people as they are.

We have to tread lightly. I personally like to celebrate cultural beauty. I just pray that the other shoe of fanatic belief never drops.

Asher