copyright patents ??????????????

[james sperry]

hope this is in the right spot

so yeah, i have a series of 21 (unique) photos that i want to have printed and then attempt to sell to the public. do i have to patent every image in the series, or just patent the series ( or both)? is there a cheaper route than $149 for each image? can anybody suggest a legit patent office?
i just got off the phone with a NASCAR Legal Rep, and she is having somebody call me back to tell me what i can and can't do that would infringe on their copyright laws. does anybody have any advice or 'DOs and DONT's' when i talk to these representatives?

 

[John Angulat]

Hi James,
This is somewhat a confusing question (in the manner it was asked). One does not "patent" an image. Images are subject to copyright laws. You may "patent" a unique photographic process, or piece of equipment you've invented, but it would not be "copyrighted. Copyrights and Patents are completely different creatures.
Also, what are you referring to when you mention a $149.00 fee?

 

[Daniel Buck]

Yes, like John said, I think there is some miss-terminology here, you don't need to patent anything (that may cause confusion if you start asking people about patents?), I think you just want a copyright. I don't think you can patent an image, you might patent the hardware or the software used, if you created those and they are different/special from everything else available.

 

[james sperry]

Hi James,
This is somewhat a confusing question (in the manner it was asked). One does not "patent" an image. Images are subject to copyright laws. You may "patent" a unique photographic process, or piece of equipment you've invented, but it would not be "copyrighted. Copyrights and Patents are completely different creatures.
Also, what are you referring to when you mention a $149.00 fee?

john and daniel,
i was at an image copyright website and in order to copyright an image, it cost $149! ( i have to get on my other computer to get the addy for the website) the website was calling it a "copyright patent"..... for me to hold the rights to the images that i have created. at the same time i'm waiting on NASCAR to call me back as to what legal matters i'm getting into.

the images are unique in the fact that they are more of a black and white designer image and not the typical, "color poster for the tailgaiting masses" << (my wife will kill me for that ).

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

i was at an image copyright website and in order to copyright an image, it cost $149! ( i have to get on my other computer to get the addy for the website) the website was calling it a "copyright patent"..... for me to hold the rights to the images that i have created. at the same time i'm waiting on NASCAR to call me back as to what legal matters i'm getting into.

the images are unique in the fact that they are more of a black and white designer image and not the typical, "color poster for the tailgaiting masses" << (my wife will kill me for that ).

Hi James,

This is obviously a scam. You have the copyright to your images if you mark them as copyrighted wherever they are published and also include the copyright in the IPTC data. You do not need to have it registered anywhere in order to establish and claim your inherent rights.

 

[Daniel Buck]

I'm not sure that the uniqueness of the image has much to do with it, the copyright is so that someone can't use the image that YOU took, they could just as well go out and take a similar image themselves, I think. I don't think image copyrights protect in that way.

I'm not sure where the $149 came from either, I thought it was around $30 per image to register electronically. I could be wrong though, I haven't looked at copyright stuff in a while. Good luck with it!

 

[james sperry]

interesting ........ so, if i put the little copyright symbol on an image, i'm not required to have any documentation for the copyright? even if i'm putting my name in the exif data, can't somebody just download the image and remove the exif data? pardon the questions, i've just read so much (now obvious crap) information in a previous forum and now i'm all confused about the whole process.

how does the process work when it comes to selling images, when the author of the image sells the rights of the image, to another entity? or if i was to get to a point where i can sell my images and somebody just cropped out my copyright on the image and put their name on it? basically, what i'm understanding now is that there is no paper documentation to back up the rights to an image .......... ?

 

[Asher Kelman]

interesting ........ so, if i put the little copyright symbol on an image, i'm not required to have any documentation for the copyright? even if i'm putting my name in the exif data, can't somebody just download the image and remove the exif data? pardon the questions, i've just read so much (now obvious crap) information in a previous forum and now i'm all confused about the whole process.

How does the process work when it comes to selling images, when the author of the image sells the rights of the image, to another entity? or if i was to get to a point where i can sell my images and somebody just cropped out my copyright on the image and put their name on it? basically, what i'm understanding now is that there is no paper documentation to back up the rights to an image .......... ?

James,

It's the same situation as someone altering the serial number on a car to sell it or using it for parts. You cannot stop people stealing your pictures. However, by posting your pictures with the © symbol you have declared that you are not donating this to the public domain. Make sure to add the contact info for someone to license your picture in the IPTC file accessed from File, File Info in Photoshop or in any cataloging program such as iviewmedai pro, Bridge, lightroom, Photomechanic, Aperture or whatever!

If you walk into a supermarket and discover that some company is using your photograph in a magazine or food label, then you should be happy. Now you have someone with money from which to claim a fee and penalties. If however, you would post the picture without the © designation, you have likely a weak claim.

You will not stop a dishonest kid or image hoarder from taking your image and removing the © sign. Look, James, you, yourself, could if you so chose, use Nik software or Photomatix and keep using then on new computers, bypassing time restrictions and then clone out their security watermarks! Yes, you could do that if your time is not worth conserving. Same with people who fiddle with other people's images!

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Let Carolyn Wright's site and book help to guide you through copyright issues.

 

[james sperry]

Let Carolyn Wright's site and book help to guide you through copyright issues.

thanks again . this looks much more promissing!

 

[james sperry]

James,

It's the same situation as someone altering the serial number on a car to sell it or using it for parts. You cannot stop people stealing your pictures. However, by posting your pictures with the © symbol you have declared that you are not donating this to the public domain. Make sure to add the contact info for someone to license your picture in the IPTC file accessed from File, File Info in Photoshop or in any cataloging program such as iviewmedai pro, Bridge, lightroom, Photomechanic, Aperture or whatever!

If you walk into a supermarket and discover that some company is using your photograph in a magazine or food label, then you should be happy. Now you have someone with money from which to claim a fee and penalties. If however, you would post the picture without the © designation, you have likely a weak claim.

You will not stop a dishonest kid or image hoarder from taking your image and removing the © sign. Look, James, you, yourself, could if you so chose, use Nik software or Photomatix and keep using then on new computers, bypassing time restrictions and then clone out their security watermarks! Yes, you could do that if your time is not worth conserving. Same with people who fiddle with other people's images!

Asher

asher,
you use alot of exclamations in your comments to me .... lol ..... are you maybe a little perturbed with my posts? i only ask because without hearing the tones of the voice, it's hard to know how to read someones comments.

 

[james sperry]

here is one more question,
what's the difference from a 'photo release' and 'licensing'? i only ask, because i'm finding that NASCAR is telling me that i have to get licensing from the team owners. that cost's $750 just to process the application and then it's not a guarantee to get approved (and of course it's non refundable). i'm going to sream if i hear that, a 'photo release' is for when there is no monitary gain from the image and 'licensed' is for when there is substantial monitary gain from the image.

if i can get away with just a photo release, i'm shooting for that one!!! holy cow.... now i know why so many photographers just sell the image and the rights to it.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

James. Really...if you're going to tangle with the likes of endlessly greedy and aggressively protective NASCAR you really should take at least one, preferably both, of the following actions.

1. Get some authoritative book learnin' and perhaps support. The American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP) is perhaps the best such organization for editorial photographers. They offer excellent reference and support resources to members, and also sell THE definitive reference handbook on such matters.

2. Get an agent or lawyer to represent you.

You're clearly completely a babe with regard to the business and law of photography. You're foolish to try to cheap-it-out by asking such questions of strangers on the Internet. If you want to be a professional, be a professional.

 

[james sperry]

James. Really...if you're going to tangle with the likes of endlessly greedy and aggressively protective NASCAR you really should take at least one, preferably both, of the following actions.

1. Get some authoritative book learnin' and perhaps support. The American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP) is perhaps the best such organization for editorial photographers. They offer excellent reference and support resources to members, and also sell THE definitive reference handbook on such matters.

2. Get an agent or lawyer to represent you.

You're clearly completely a babe with regard to the business and law of photography. You're foolish to try to cheap-it-out by asking such questions of strangers on the Internet. If you want to be a professional, be a professional.

ken,
honestly, i don't think of anybody here as strangers. everybody has been more than honest with me. with that, i have a sincere respect for the members here. at the same time, i have been trying to speak with professionals (via phone) and have only gotten one honest feeling intent of help from a television/image product development firm here in oklahoma. this rep even asked me to send a couple of samples to him to see and specifically asked for them in a low-res format. but at the same time he told me that he has no idea of copyright law and gave me the number of a firm he uses. i called them and they pretty much just hung up on me when i told them that i had no prior published works. all the other PROFESSIONALS have not given me any answers or even given me a somewhat vague direction to go.

here in opf, i have gotten several good starting points to go towards getting myself protected or how to get important information. and for that, i thank you all.

yes, you're correct. i am a 'babe' when it comes to ANY matter of law. i couldn't even understand the contract i signed when i was a government contractor. but, with your statement about being a professional.... it's also hard to interpret.... yes, i would love to be a professional but ...... everybody has to start somewhere. but ... at the same time .... i don't want to be the 'PROFESSIONALS' that i have come across the last couple of years. they just feel like they have forgotten where they came from and how they had to get started.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Oklahoma is an armpit for such matters. Pursue the ASMP lead I gave you.

FWIW, one of the common distinguishing characteristics I've observed among every genuinely and persistently successful person in many fields is that they quickly organize themselves to BE successful. Specifically, they use the skills of others to belay tasks for which they themselves are unqualified or which would be distracting to their main missions of interest. The other 95% of the field gets tangled-up with fears, misplaced goals of economy, miserable interpersonal skills, etc. They consequently remain pudknockers of no real note or consequence. It sounds to me like you're at a junction.

 

[james sperry]

Oklahoma is an armpit for such matters. Pursue the ASMP lead I gave you.

FWIW, one of the common distinguishing characteristics I've observed among every genuinely and persistently successful person in many fields is that they quickly organize themselves to BE successful. Specifically, they use the skills of others to belay tasks for which they themselves are unqualified or which would be distracting to their main missions of interest. The other 95% of the field gets tangled-up with fears, misplaced goals of economy, miserable interpersonal skills, etc. They consequently remain pudknockers of no real note or consequence. It sounds to me like you're at a junction.

ken,
i hope i'm just misunderstanding your comments. this comment is going to steer a little off subject but i feel that maybe there is a misunderstanding between us......

i am 37 years old, a Staff Sergeant in the U.S. Army and have been fairly successful in everything that i have attempted. i made my E6 basically within 6 years of service from the status of E1. i put just as much heart into achieving that as i do anything else. yes, there have been the failures but those failures were out of not having the information that i should have looked into. i have learned from those failures. one thing that i have never done is "belayed a task" that is important to my "main mission of interest". i'm still trying to figure this statement out that you made in regards to "it sounds to me like you're at a junction". the way i see it, there is no junction, i only see a straight road with a couple of speed bumps. i'm not asking anybody to remove the speedbumps, i'm only asking were to go, to learn to navigate over them .

now, call me what you want ....... noob, babe, unprofessional ....... that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i'm going to sell these images. i'm going to sell these images if it kills me. and i'm going to do it legally. if you want to point me in the correct direction, i'll get on my hands and knees and thank you ( figuratively of course). but, please don't make a judgement of my integrity if you do not know me.

i really hope that i'm misunderstanding your comments. but i thank you for the leads that you have given me.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

James,

My comments were in no way intended to slight you. Rather, to the contrary, they were intended to encourage you to get a good start in professional photography, in whatever niche you want to pursue. Specifically, to encourage you to use other professionals to build a business (if that's what you're trying to do). (I can think of few nastier rats nests of rights management than NASCAR.)

I know nothing of what you're trying to "sell", nor did I know your age or background. But it mattered not. My suggestions would have been the same if you were a high school senior or a senior citizen. Your military background is certainly commendable but entirely irrelevant in this field.

Good luck to you. You'll certainly need extraordinary measures of luck, talent, and skill to be successful in photography today.

 

[james sperry]

thank you,
i apologize that i was unable to understand what you were trying to say and i hope this does not reflect poorly on my part. but, that's why i have stayed at opf because i look at quite a few people here as profis.... or at least good enough to point me in the right direction.

i truly feel that i have found a niche for these photos and they are the perfect opportunity to get me where i would like to be. i soooooooo want to share them with everbody here but i'm still waiting for a better time ( a lesson from a earlier time in life.... lol).

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi James,

We do have tough love here, but we try to avoid just cheering and wowing things. When you took the pictures, did you have a legal right to take them? If you paid for a ticket, did the ticket have on it restrictions or were there published restrictions?

If you were taking your own fun pictures and they turn out to be artistic and not being sold for commerce (for example stock or advertising) then you have some leeway perhaps.

For sure this very subject has been written about in scores of cases as you are not the first artistic human to have the opportunity to photograph a race or the cars.

So if you share the images and story behind them, we'd have a good idea. I'd post them no larger than 600 pixels wide and at jpg compression about 5-6 just enough for us to see what's going on. We might at least have enough from that to be able to gauge what it is that you seek to exploit. I would doubt that Nascar could have control over artistic work. However, there may have been terms on you purchased ticket or your issuance of a pass.

Ultimately, if the pictures are indeed exceptional and there's a market it would, as Ken suggests, warrant getting an attorney who is already expert in this. If the pictures don't really hold that potential, the matter is mute.

Anything posted on the internet can be stolen. So when you post, include in the IPTC code you © info and your contact details. Also add © James Sperry to the bottom edge of each picture. Adding the year can be done too but I don't know if that is critical.

I feel you could very well get some idea of the exceptional value or not of these pictures and how realistic your marketing ideas are if you share the photographs here. However, to my knowledge, we have no experts in this field. If you are already certain of things, then go straight to find a lawyer in your area.

Asher

 

[james sperry]

lol ..... darn it, asher .... lol,

there is nothing certain in life, but yes, i do have a strong feeling with these images. i'll post 3 of the images here shortley .... but, i'm sending them regardless of what anybody says and even though i hold everybody here in high regards ... lol .. i'm not changing anything about them

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I'll certainly not offer any critique! <g>

I honestly have no idea what type of image could be valuable to NASCAR, although I also admit to not being an avid follower of stock car racing. You clearly have your hopes and ambitions high for these images. I would caution you to moderate your expectations. NASCAR has become a big entertainment business, particularly during the past 10-12 years. They, the car sponsors, the car crews, and the press following have literally thousands of photographers following every conceivable aspect of NASCAR. So, again, good luck.

But one set of images doth not an avocation make. So perhaps I've steered you in an unnecessary direction, as you really are not seeking to become a professional photographer after all.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I'll certainly not offer any critique! <g>

I honestly have no idea what type of image could be so valuable to NASCAR, although I also admit to not being an avid follower of stock car racing. You clearly have your hopes and ambitions high for these images. I would caution you to moderate your expectations. NASCAR has become a big entertainment business, particularly during the past 10-12 years. They, the car sponsors, the car crews, and the press following have literally thousands of photographers following every conceivable aspect of NASCAR. So, again, good luck.

But one set of images doth not an avocation make. So perhaps I've steered you in an unnecessary direction, as you really are not seeking to become a professional photographer after all.

 

[james sperry]

lol ...... ouch!!!

because i'm not choosing just one genre of photography? lol ..... that's not fair, ken ... lol. i married into a NASCAR family and i have seen the junk that the NASCAR entity licenses and markets ( watch this statement come back to bite me ). right now i'm uploading a few images. think about the NASCAR posters that you have seen and then base my idea off that and give it an honest thought as to whether or not you think these would fill a niche.

my real interest lies with the impressionism of still life photography and i will always follow it. albeit, i'm doing real well at it (at the moment) ....... i'm still attempting it.... and one day something is just going to "click"....

p.s. i never said it was valuable to NASCAR. it's just a way to generate extra revinew for myself. they just want an arm and a leg to license it.

 

[Mike Bailey]

Maybe I missed it in all the responses, but here's the site to look at:

http://www.copyright.gov/

It's where you'd end up sending your photographs, either by uploading or on a CD. The Copyright Office has begun pushing for doing it all electronically these days. Briefly, once you've published a photograph publicly, such as on your web site, even if it is not in its original dimensions, you then have an original date of public publication. If you've done this with all of your photographs in question, you can register them as a "collection" for the current fee of $45 for a collection at the Copyright Office.

As mentioned already, this of course would not stop theft, but if your photographs were published or used without your consent, you would be able to sue for extensive damages by having registered your photographs at the U.S. Copyright Office. You do not have to submit the photographs in their original size. A reasonable, smaller representation is more than adequate. It takes an extremely long time for the Copyright Office to process a submission, up to 9 or 10 months, BUT the date that they receive the submission and payment is the date it is legally copyrighted.

The link above has all the information you'll need, PDFs to download, forms to download, and so on. It's mostly a matter of wading through it all and finding the form(s) that you need.

Mike