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Deliver work for high gloss magazine print

Greetings,

I am looking for advise on this as this is a first for me, and I am new to propper colormanagement.

I am required to deliver pictures for print in a high gloss magazine, and naturally I am puzzled on the workflow to deliver the pictures in a way that they will come out as best as possible.

So far I just asked for them to tell me THEIR requirements, CMYK, SWOP whatsoever, and await their feedback.

Now I wonder how I can stay in control of the endresult. I understand this is a matter of proofing and output sharpening. But I lack the knowledge to have a workflow that enables me to be sure they can not mess it up.

Any hints are most welcome!

Thanks!
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Good morning, George

as long as you' re not knowing/having the CMYK-profile of the specific paper, it seems useless to me to convert to CMYK. You might get mixed results when converting once to CMYK and they will do a another CMYK-conversion, as CMYK is 8bit only. So here, most of the time, I deliver RGBs unless its a kinda inhouse-production.

The're some other factors for the end result, some of them, you can't control, unless you stand beside the printing machine.

Even high glossy magazines can mess it up ;-)
So, good luck.
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Hi Georg

we handle hundreds of image or ads for magazine per year.
The best advise has been already given by Michael.
Unless you don't know the exact color space they want (cmyk is just as unprecise as rgb is, they are plenty diffrent CMYK out there…).
Go to sRGB, sharpen to your taste at 100% on screen viewing with a check at 50%
Normally, the quality (sharpen wise) shown at 50% is what you can hope when printed.

But don't shake your head to much on that, do your best (I know your best is stunning) once you've sent the file, the rest is NOT under YOUR control…
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
>But don't shake your head to much on that, do your best<
Quite true ;-)

in my situation, the goal is to deliver my best possible RGBs, instead of °messing up° with CMYK.
I rarely have inhouse productions.

-------------
Nicolas,

I alwith deliver Ad98-RGBs. How come you send sRGB's?
Not to be to demanding to the prepress-folks?
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
-------------
Nicolas,

I alwith deliver Ad98-RGBs. How come you send sRGB's?
Not to be to demanding to the prepress-folks?

Because most of pre-press folks still doesn't make the difference berween Argb and Srgb…

When they do know, then we can even start talmking what kind of cmyk they need …
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Nicolas
we seem to have scared the Bear...

True; some prepress-folks are much fixed in their own box; about three years ago, one printing house wanted me to damage the finelooking tiffs, cause they weren't aware of profiles! That was even for a painter-artist's catalog (sic!!) - I refused it categorical, as this would have been a blind flight.

Well another important thing: the proof sheet with the printing machine, if color accuracy is important. Here, for a museum's catalog I' ve been shooting, they do it twice; once after the CMYK-conversion, and then after the first proof's correction.
 

chris andrews

New member
Pre-press

"Because most of pre-press folks still doesn't make the difference berween Argb and Srgb…

When they do know, then we can even start talmking what kind of cmyk they need …"

Being one of these "pre-press folks" I thought it was quite funny coming across this statement. Maybe because I happen to be a photographer and a pre-press guy I am well versed on color space and color management. In my limited experience (20 years) I have come across more photographers that don't know what profiles to use even when given written instructions and screen captures for Photoshop. Like it or not most printers or pre-press houses strip out icc profiles in their workflow and apply a SWOP or GraCol profile. If you want to see what you're image will look like, soft proof it in Photoshop using the cmyk profile on a calibrated monitor.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
It's worth quoting Jeff's response. Three matters should preface my quote. First that the size of the
  1. Standard CMYK gamut is much smaller than Adobe RGB (1988)

    index.php


    Image Ted Dillard 2008 CMYK Color Gamut reduced by 84% of RGB Color Gamut

  2. Next, the technicians taking a file from you have all sorts of skills but not necessarily yours in color management

  3. Finally, the output machine always has unique limitations in printing what we see on the computer screen or print on an Epson Inkjet Printer which BTW can print colors even beyond what we see on the monitor!

So here's what Jeff wrote in LL:

[quote name='Schewe' date='Sep 8 2008, 02:12 PM' post='220188']
Well, the industry simply isn't the same as it was back then. Back then a piece of film could be scanned by well trained scanner operators whose job it was to convert to CMYK while also doing on the fly automated sharpening for the press at the final placed size.

Delivering a native resolution file in Adobe RGB is nothing like delivering a piece of film. Somebody, somewhere must know what to do with the digital file and the odds are _REAL_ good it won't be the designer nor the printer nor even the client. If YOU don't know what to do with the file then you are really hanging your client out to dry. There are very few printers who can accept RGB and do a really good job dealing with the conversion and sharpening for the press. They are out there, but the odds of them getting a low bid for a cheap client is minimal.

Back when I was delivering files for clients, I made them put, on the P.O., the exact proofing device that the first CMYK proof would be made from. I also had really good profiles for all the proofing devices used here in the US. Once I got the confirmation of the proof being used, I used the ICC CMYK profile for that device and only showed my clients what the image would look like, in CMYK. To show them what it looks like in RGB is to have them fall in love with something they'll NEVER get on press.

After doing all the work on the image in RGB with CMYK soft proofing on, I then converted from ProPhoto RGB (my working space) to the CMYK proof profile. Once I converted to CMYK I then reconverted the CMYK to RGB in either sRGB or Adobe RGB. Then I delivered both the CMYK and the RGB files made from them. Why? Because if I gave them RGB that was made from the CMYK then nobody down the line could screw up the conversion. If somebody took the RGB file I gave them and did their own CMYK separation, the odds are REAL GOOD they would be very close to the CMYK I gave them.

I also padded the file resolution by about 20% but did final output sharpening prior to the CMYK conversion. I told the clients that they could go up or down 20% and expect reasonable results but if they when up or down more that 20% of the original, the results would be inferior because the output would be "ruined" (sometimes it's good to engage in "white lies" in order to keep clients from doing the wrong things).

If you know what you are doing, the odds are really good you will be the only one who does at this point in the industry. If the jobs you do go well and the clients are happy, they will keep coming back for your knowledge. If you just give clients what they think they want, the odds are also pretty good that somebody down the line will screw things up and guess who gets the blame?

In truth, first ask the magazine what they want and get it in writing. For any client, a ruined run could either misrepresent your work or else cause an unwanted expense. Seems so simple. Also if you are local or they can mail them, make yourself available to check the proofs.

Asher
 
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nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Hi Chris
As a pro prepress guy, you should be aware that swop is not worldwide, it does also exists Eurostandard…
Not forgeting UCR or GCR
Not forgeting glossy paper or Mat paper
Not forgeting color of paper
Not forgeting web sheet press or continuous press

They are hundreds of cmyk profiles for many different options as color separation

Like it or not most printers or pre-press houses strip out icc profiles
that's the reason why, by default the Srgb is the profile to use. Without recognizing the initial profile, one can only get hazardous results when converting to any other profile!

I send files for more than 15 years now, all over the world, be them for advertising or editorial purposes, believe it or not, each time I ask what profile they would like me to embed, I get 99% of time as an answer: "cmyk!"

So when one don't know what ICC to use, the simplier and the safer is to send sRGB.

It would be better to send Adobe RGB for the prepress folks to convert to THEIR swop profile.
It would be better to send eciRGB_V2 (ECI) for the prepress folks to convert to THEIR Eurostandard profile.

But that would be in a perfect world!

Last but not least, if one still wants to send cmyk files, the convertion should be done at the latest stage, otherwise the black composition and limit of max ink for black should be massively increased, falsed and "distorted" for the press…

PS BTW this statement doesn't mean that photographers do know better than pre press folks! It just means this needs as much as precision as setting a shutter speed or a ƒ stop. Unfortunately the lack of precision is found in both worlds ;-)
 

chris andrews

New member
"There are very few printers who can accept RGB and do a really good job dealing with the conversion and sharpening for the press."

I guess I work for one of those printers. The problem now days is most jobs that come in are already in PDF format. So if the graphic designer is the one doing the conversions you really are out of luck. The bottom line is this, photographers rarely have control of an image after they sell it to someone for print work. Listening to you guys talk makes me wonder what your exposure to printing encompasses. If anyone is in the US midwest area and would like to come and see a real offset print operation with color management from prepress to press drop me an e-mail.

Chris.
 

chris andrews

New member
Nicolas,

I agree with what you are saying, in general there are a lot of printers that don't have a clue. I run the color management all the way from prepress to press. Different dot gain curves for every unit on the press and various grades of paper. I am also a G7 certified professional. I work in conjunction with designers and photographers. Customer education is one of my responsibilities, I've yet to have a customer educate me on how to do "my" job.
I know that sounds bad and I may come off as arrogant, but that's not my intention.

Chris
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
No worry Chris, I didn't find your post arrogant, just not precise enough…

Listening to you guys talk makes me wonder what your exposure to printing encompasses
I run a small but busy advertising agency (in Europe) in which I have many roles, such as photographer and production manager (but not only). I spend many days per year in front of web sheet press to control the printing of our client's brochures and books. Some run 500 copies some does run 25.000…
I have started with a local printer the 1st CTP in our city (in 19998 or 1999 iirc)…
Now we still -of course- use CTP only but with stochastic screening…

I still learn every day… so it makes me very modest!
 

chris andrews

New member
If you have an opportunity you should look into the G7 color management methods. We have been working with this for about 1 year now, our stochastic screening and 200 line screen jobs look amazing. We use the prinergy workflow through out our shop and 50% of the jobs are soft proofed on press with 30" Apple cinema displays. On press soft proofing is the future, customers submit pdf's and get to see a soft proof on their end almost instantly. If they use the same prinergy insite proofing they can OK color remotely.
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
On press soft proofing is the future, customers submit pdf's and get to see a soft proof on their end almost instantly. If they use the same prinergy insite proofing they can OK color remotely.
I do agree, but -too bad- future is no the present!
for now I would dream of a RIP software that would be able to analyze and correct on the fly colors before shooting the plates, taking care of different images being printed on the same sheet of paper.
As an example we oftenly print warm color pictures (interior of boats with woods(s) and "cold" colored pictures (sea and sky), this is for now impossible to softproof all together… then only I can make the right choices (more cyan, less magenta etc…) as there are no more slides as proof.
In that case a proof as a Chromalin or any other system is just a fool (doesn't have the running press issues)
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The Photographer Proofing The CMYK output is an advantage to everyone!

I do agree, but -too bad- future is no the present!
for now I would dream of a RIP software that would be able to analyze and correct on the fly colors before shooting the plates, taking care of different images being printed on the same sheet of paper.
As an example we oftenly print warm color pictures (interior of boats with woods(s) and "cold" colored pictures (sea and sky), this is for now impossible to softproof all together… then only I can make the right choices (more cyan, less magenta etc…) as there are no more slides as proof.
In that case a proof as a Chromalin or any other system is just a fool (doesn't have the running press issues)

I am privileged to have watch Nicolas collaborating on such respectful manner with the master printer.

proof.jpg


©2006 Asher Kelman "Proofing CMYK Output in the Sunlight"

I can say with some nostalgia and pride how I followed the meticulous check of CMYK first runs both under the 5000 degree light at the control drafting bench and then outside in sunlight. Seeing the two of them outside together, there was almost a comraderie, like buddies getting together at a reunion.

Asher
 
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