Tom dinning
Registrant*
Such is the way of us all.
We are born, we work, we grow old and eventually die.
Holding grace through all that it a challenge.
Some succeed. Some not.
We can only judge them on their persistence.
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Ex-working girls.
- Thread starter Tom dinning
- Start date
Such is the way of us all.
We are born, we work, we grow old and eventually die.
Holding grace through all that it a challenge.
Some succeed. Some not.
We can only judge them on their persistence.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
“Ex working girls!”, you say!
I really doubt that!
I am willing to imagine, by virtue of their gender, that they were indeed, once girls in some distant vintage past, LOL.
However, I doubt they charged men they did not know a minute before, to be pleasured with their bodies!
My reasonable best guess is that they each only had a loving husband they fed and cherished for years!
Asher
I really doubt that!
However, I doubt they charged men they did not know a minute before, to be pleasured with their bodies!
My reasonable best guess is that they each only had a loving husband they fed and cherished for years!
Asher
Peter Dexter
Well-known member
Good one Tom. With their age who in the Hell knows what they did with their lives. However it is virtually certain that "ex" applies.
Antonio Correia
Well-known member
ex, yes !Italy ?
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I don’t follow. Why ex?
For someone to be “ex”, rif
Got mow, you are implying they were once prostitutes!
Peter’s “bar-girls” are unlikely to be simply tourists or office workers. Similarly, Tom’s senior ladies, here, have as much chance of having whored as youngsters as I have of becoming a Lesbian!
Asher!
For someone to be “ex”, rif
Got mow, you are implying they were once prostitutes!
Peter’s “bar-girls” are unlikely to be simply tourists or office workers. Similarly, Tom’s senior ladies, here, have as much chance of having whored as youngsters as I have of becoming a Lesbian!
Asher!
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Even if it were just housework or raising children I can only assume they worked at something. They may wel have been doctors, architects or teacher, clerks or check out chicks. Who’s to know at first glance?
Sex workers, as they are known here, are the prostitutes you refer to.
I have know idea if they worked as prostitutes. Either might suggest, if they had a demanding and ruthless partner, that they committed a form of prostitution during their life. I’ve heard that said of some relationships.
Either way, I was probably endeavouring to make a point. Earning a living my selling sexual gratification isn’t necessarily a bd thing, nor degrading or regretful. It has its risks but the union of Sex Workers has a occupational health and safety standard that is well advocated.
I don’t know the figures but I’m aware that the incidents of domestic violence might compare unfavourably to that which takes place between client and provider.
And if we are to indicate any prejudice towards such people we need to remember that it is mostly men who are the clients.
If a person chooses to feed herself and family in any way we can only honour them in their endeavours. The means by which this is achieved is mostly irrelevant.
Sex workers, as they are known here, are the prostitutes you refer to.
I have know idea if they worked as prostitutes. Either might suggest, if they had a demanding and ruthless partner, that they committed a form of prostitution during their life. I’ve heard that said of some relationships.
Either way, I was probably endeavouring to make a point. Earning a living my selling sexual gratification isn’t necessarily a bd thing, nor degrading or regretful. It has its risks but the union of Sex Workers has a occupational health and safety standard that is well advocated.
I don’t know the figures but I’m aware that the incidents of domestic violence might compare unfavourably to that which takes place between client and provider.
And if we are to indicate any prejudice towards such people we need to remember that it is mostly men who are the clients.
If a person chooses to feed herself and family in any way we can only honour them in their endeavours. The means by which this is achieved is mostly irrelevant.
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Without a doubt, Antonio.
Italy ?
Tom dinning
Registrant*
Few people ask me what I do, Peter. They are more likely to ask what I DID.
I’m an ‘ex’ as well.
Although a Monty Python would have me expired, deceased, is no more if I were ‘ex’.
Or does that only apply to parrots?
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
You may be thinking about the present situation in Australia, but if these women used to work in this way (which we have no possibility to know), it would have happened in Italy some time ago. I think Federico Fellini had a movie and Pier Paolo Pasolini another one staged at the time and place. Movies do not quite represent reality, but in that case are an indication that health and safety standards used to be quite different.
This to remind all that the subject of sex work is complex and extraordinarily varied. Some countries make prostitution legal, some punish it by death. The title "working women" was recently used in another thread, situated in central America, where the situation is again different.
As to the age at which sex workers retire, some can't afford to.
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Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jérôme,
You are so right to point out the various circumstances behind the choices made.
I think you might imply that we have some responsibility to protect young girls and poor women by setting up “choice and opportunity” by such means as
Asher
You are so right to point out the various circumstances behind the choices made.
I think you might imply that we have some responsibility to protect young girls and poor women by setting up “choice and opportunity” by such means as
- education
- vocational training
- law enforcement
- free health care
- child protective services
- Safe houses with social respurces
- Social work support
Asher
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
"We", as in "collective we", have a responsibility to protect the poor (not only women...) by setting up "choice and opportunity", yes. I think we can all agree to that, at least as long as we are not directly asked to pay for it... usually. As soon as "we" start asking to actually fund the bill, volunteers are less easy to find...
As to prostitution, we can say that:
-the overwhelming majority of customers are male, in all cultures through history (for cultures where prostitution exists)
-OTOH, a sizable minority of sex workers are also male (in modern times, about 10%), a fact that is often disregarded
-there is an enormous amount of money in the practice, which both explains why it attracts gangsters and why young attractive sex workers are not willing to have this business opportunity taken away from them.
As to prostitution, we can say that:
-the overwhelming majority of customers are male, in all cultures through history (for cultures where prostitution exists)
-OTOH, a sizable minority of sex workers are also male (in modern times, about 10%), a fact that is often disregarded
-there is an enormous amount of money in the practice, which both explains why it attracts gangsters and why young attractive sex workers are not willing to have this business opportunity taken away from them.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The part that is so unsettling is when rights are stolen, e.g., we hear of parents trading off their children as in the brothels of Bangkok and the like.
....the customs sex tours from the UK and Australia with Airlines knowing what’s going on!
Asher
....the customs sex tours from the UK and Australia with Airlines knowing what’s going on!
Asher
Tom dinning
Registrant*
The Northern Territory has a relaxed approach to prostitution, much like everything else we do.
Brothels and street soliciting in illegal but individuals can operate legally. Individual advertising is permitted as long as the language meets the needs of the publisher.
My neighbour lives with a sex worker. She’s off to work as we all are each day, goes about her home duties like any other person, is friendly, well presented, and assumes a happy and content manner. No clients visit her at home. She has two children and is a good neighbour.
And no, I’m not tempted or solicited. I haven’t yet asked if I can get a pensioners discount.
All this takes place in a relatively civil and law abiding place of course. Perhaps Aussies just don’t give a toss.
Brothels and street soliciting in illegal but individuals can operate legally. Individual advertising is permitted as long as the language meets the needs of the publisher.
My neighbour lives with a sex worker. She’s off to work as we all are each day, goes about her home duties like any other person, is friendly, well presented, and assumes a happy and content manner. No clients visit her at home. She has two children and is a good neighbour.
And no, I’m not tempted or solicited. I haven’t yet asked if I can get a pensioners discount.
All this takes place in a relatively civil and law abiding place of course. Perhaps Aussies just don’t give a toss.
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
I am pretty sure that your neighbour behaves as you wrote, I would guess that most people in that line of work do. But in a short stay in Sidney 15 years ago, I remember that there was a woman soliciting customers on the street at bargain prices apparently to get a fix. The situation was sordid and I felt really sorry for her. I have also seen worse in Paris when I was a student. That is also part of the reality of sex work, as you certainly know.
As to the legal situation, Australia seems to be like France was in the 70s: individuals can operate legally. France, however, has made the laws more restrictive over the last 50 years. Basically, prostitution is still legal but anything around it is not. It is a schizophrenic system and the situation of sex workers has markedly degraded over the years.
Germany chose the opposite route: sex work and even brothels are legal and controlled. The situation of sex workers is generally much better. OTOH, it also had the perverse effect of increasing organised crime and illegal immigration.
As to the legal situation, Australia seems to be like France was in the 70s: individuals can operate legally. France, however, has made the laws more restrictive over the last 50 years. Basically, prostitution is still legal but anything around it is not. It is a schizophrenic system and the situation of sex workers has markedly degraded over the years.
Germany chose the opposite route: sex work and even brothels are legal and controlled. The situation of sex workers is generally much better. OTOH, it also had the perverse effect of increasing organised crime and illegal immigration.
Tom dinning
Registrant*
You will have to take my word, Jerome. I might be making it all up. Each is a possibility.
One must keep in mind that our personal feelings on such a matter have nothing to do with the reasons, ways, and means of how people survive.
But our personal feelings do have an effect on how we treat such people. A better on the street or a refuge has a narrow range of choices. As with all of us, they want to survive. They make choices which don’t reflect well on the way we see things. We make judgements. We make decisions for them. We stigmatise them.
What we need to more of is protect them from the unscrupulous ways of other humans. We have laws that protect us. We have regulations which protect us in our employment. We criminalise the perpetrators and their quarry.
Organised crime is opportunistic. Where there is a possibility to undermine the value of other humans to make money crime such as this will exist. And when the opportunity is removed the crime moves on to new ventures. Legalised and well structured prostitution doesn’t breed crime just as immigration doesn’t encourage refugees.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Tom,
I have no reflex argument that would would negate your opinion on a legalized and well ordered supply/market of/for prostitutes.
BTW, On the topic of “prostitution”, interesting that we don’t criminalize andvhound PH.D. Researchers from leaving cancer research to use their skill instead, testing causing components of cosmetics in the eyes or captive rabbits. That prostitution of the mind is perhaps far worse to society than renting our hips and lips to a willing gentleman admirer.
I do however, hesitate to approve your suggestion that immigration doesn’t encourage refugees.
I think the opposite is certainly true. Where immigration is allowed and easy, oppressed people are more willing to risk life and limb for a better life and journey towards that open border with the possibility of legally immigrating to that accepting country.
There can’t be serious intent to put a ball in a basket ball hoop, unless someone allows that hoop to exist in the first place. Where being a refugee is a choice to save children from misery, welcoming immigration laws act as that basketball hoop!
But much of the world’s refugees are homeless for different reasons. Folk dispossessed in Syria by bombs or naplam are now desperate refugees, but this time, not by choice. They are refugees without any imagined destination!
In many communities in South America, however, violent threats and economic conditions at home are so bad, that there is no hope for their children. At the same time, opportunities in the USA are so great, that any improvement on accepting migrants, will get known and act as a stimulant of hope for the desperate folk in shanty towns, fearing for the lives of their family. This stimulates further increases in folk abandoning their homes by choice and trudging North, as refugees. The escape violence at home, to the USA border drawn like moths to the light of freedom shining from across the border when immigration is permitted.
When immigration is stifled, the Northern flow of refugees is slowed again!
Asher
Tom dinning
Registrant*
immigrants and refugees have different origins and ideals. They move borders for different reasons. Yet there are many things they have in common
I'm not fully across all these reasons but I have some insight from Christine and people I know.
Christine is an immigrant. She came here for a better life but she had no idea, except for hearsay and propaganda, what was in store for her and her family when she arrived and into the future.
She paid her money and waved goodbye to her country of birth and took up residence in country which she now calls home.
She often speaks of the difficulties she experienced and the doubt she had and still does.
I cant imagine its been easy for her.
I have many friends and taught many young people who have come to Australia as refugees. Their hardship is, at times, beyond belief, their separation from homeland and family has made a forceful impact on them and all that know them.
Why do they come here? Because they have heard stories and heard the propaganda.
They pay their money and wave their country of origin behind.
Many of these people are unaware of where they might end up. All they want to do is to escape. Thats their priority. What they are escaping is complex and varied. but to make such a decision, to risk their lives and the lives of their families, to undergo such hardships, in the hope that someone will take them in and allow them to live a reasonable existence in a peaceful environment isn’t something I find hard to understand yet uneasy at the attitude of many individuals and governments.
One question that might arise in those that value their undisturbed lives is ‘what have they done to deserve what I have?’
Another might be ‘what do I have to give up?’
Often, these questions negate the obvious one. ‘How can I help?’
Of course there’s the case of the grass being greener. That’s a problem to the country that propounds, indeed insists, there country is the best in the world and is only separated by a country of tyranny and poverty, lawlessness and autocracy by a geographical line in the sand. Even a body of water doesn’t stop people from acting on their dreams and aspirations.
I’m not suggesting it’s all or nothing. I don’t have a solution. Nor would there be any point in having one if those in power make their decisions on monetary and political terms instead of humanitarian ones. I’m not sure if it even bothers me that much. Like you, I have a good life. I don’t want or need to live elsewhere. Equally, I have no issue with giving another human being a chance at living in this country.
As for the people who take advantage of these people looking for a better life, well, that’s another story.
I'm not fully across all these reasons but I have some insight from Christine and people I know.
Christine is an immigrant. She came here for a better life but she had no idea, except for hearsay and propaganda, what was in store for her and her family when she arrived and into the future.
She paid her money and waved goodbye to her country of birth and took up residence in country which she now calls home.
She often speaks of the difficulties she experienced and the doubt she had and still does.
I cant imagine its been easy for her.
I have many friends and taught many young people who have come to Australia as refugees. Their hardship is, at times, beyond belief, their separation from homeland and family has made a forceful impact on them and all that know them.
Why do they come here? Because they have heard stories and heard the propaganda.
They pay their money and wave their country of origin behind.
Many of these people are unaware of where they might end up. All they want to do is to escape. Thats their priority. What they are escaping is complex and varied. but to make such a decision, to risk their lives and the lives of their families, to undergo such hardships, in the hope that someone will take them in and allow them to live a reasonable existence in a peaceful environment isn’t something I find hard to understand yet uneasy at the attitude of many individuals and governments.
One question that might arise in those that value their undisturbed lives is ‘what have they done to deserve what I have?’
Another might be ‘what do I have to give up?’
Often, these questions negate the obvious one. ‘How can I help?’
Of course there’s the case of the grass being greener. That’s a problem to the country that propounds, indeed insists, there country is the best in the world and is only separated by a country of tyranny and poverty, lawlessness and autocracy by a geographical line in the sand. Even a body of water doesn’t stop people from acting on their dreams and aspirations.
I’m not suggesting it’s all or nothing. I don’t have a solution. Nor would there be any point in having one if those in power make their decisions on monetary and political terms instead of humanitarian ones. I’m not sure if it even bothers me that much. Like you, I have a good life. I don’t want or need to live elsewhere. Equally, I have no issue with giving another human being a chance at living in this country.
As for the people who take advantage of these people looking for a better life, well, that’s another story.
Jerome Marot
Well-known member
Of course you are right. By writing: "it also had the perverse effect of increasing organised crime and illegal immigration.", I implied causality. There is no causality, just correlation. I was aware of the lack of causality, but was sloppy in my writing.
As to the problem of immigration, it would probably need its own thread.