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Kodak Phasing Out Film

doug anderson

New member
They're closing plants, etc. Will that mean the end of tri-x?

I wonder who's going to supply film.

Guy on NPR said that the film manufacturing economy began with "everybody having a Brownie" which meant there was always money to make film with.

Digital has knocked a big hole in that.
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
They're just introducing a new 35mm negative emulsion - Ektar 100, same name as my old favourite but used to be 25. It's claimed to be the finest grained colour negative material ever, and better than E110g ektachrome (which I don't know so can't compare!)

Mike
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug,

Film is very much alive. In fact, interestingly enough so is the sale of large format cameras! Don't be surprised if we get Polaroid made under a special arrangement for the 16x20 and 20x24 sizes!

Asher
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
Kodak is very much not phasing out film. They continue to develop new pro products and the film market is much more alive than what you might see everyday.

And their support for film shooters is also very much alive and well.
 

Ken Tanaka

pro member
Doug: It's likely that film, at least in 35mm and probably 120/220 form, will be available for the rest of our time. I would not be quite so optimistic of the futures for sheet products.

Nevertheless, the market for consumer film products has shriveled approximately 15% per year for the past 5+ years with no end in sight. (Film's biggest commercial market, movies, is also just beginning to shrink as digital video production and distribution takes hold.)

That's clearly not an encouraging market to enter or retain. I expect Kodak to maintain at least a foothold in film for the foreseeable future regardless of its dwindling profitability; it's their publicly recognized heritage and the losses are controllable. I also expect Fuji to remain in film for the foreseeable future. They, like Kodak, have a substantial investment in this market which requires very little marketing or nurturing.

The growing challenge for emulsion-lovers, however, may be getting their images developed. Chemicals for home development of b&w film might become harder to obtain. Labs might also become harder to find, particularly if the drug chains and suburban super-stores cut back on their processing services. (These services are, after all, only offered to get people into stores where they might potentially also buy Huggies, beer, or tampons.)

It's interesting to also note that film is still seen by many consumers, particularly middle-aged women, as the simpler, more fuss-free medium.

So film will be around for the foreseeable future, also perhaps with less convenience.
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Doug: It's interesting to also note that film is still seen by many consumers, particularly middle-aged women, as the simpler, more fuss-free medium.

So film will be around for the foreseeable future, also perhaps with less convenience.

As a woman of middle age, Film is a simpler more fuss free medium in my opinion. As a Pro, I think I would love to go shoot some TriX. Maybe a good project for this weekend if I can get to the film store to buy some! I haven't taken my Elan 7E out of the case since the Canon 10D came out....
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I recently was at a high class wedding in San Francisco. There were 3 photographers each with 3 camera all film except the boss had his middle one a 20D. No gray cards, no white balance just thousands of shots all sent to a pro lab! Everything first class. All the photographer does is take a perfect picture!

Asher
 

Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Film

Actually Asher with all the newer photographers who shoot weddings, many have never shot film. So the pros who have in order to differentiate themselves offer film or shoot strictly film to show their experience and talent.
 
Dwayne's is the only Kodachrome lab left. Any other lab anywhere in the world that takes Kodachrome for processing sends it to Dwayne's.

Sheet film is not really doing so poorly. I spoke with Scott DiSabato who is in charge of marketing for professional films for Kodak at PMA a couple of years ago, and he was very enthusiastic about the regular special orders they're getting for custom sheet film cuts now, and those have only improved since I spoke with him, particularly as the new version of T-Max 400 that uses 2-electron sensitization (provides twice the speed with half the grain--a major innovation that began with movie films) has been released. Tri-X is still a best seller. Some of us are a bit annoyed that they are only selling 8x10" Tri-X in 10-sheet boxes right now, which is both inconvenient and more expensive for regular users, but we hope that's just a temporary ploy to attract students who might not want to spring for a 50-sheet box at around $160.

Ilford is also providing special cuts annually for all kinds of formats that people would have thought were long dead. A few manufacturers are bringing out new view cameras in whole plate (6.5x8.5 inch) format and making filmholders for them and Kodak, Ilford, Foma, and Efke are cutting film in this format. I've got an order in for 10 boxes of FP4+ in 2.25x3.25" and I'm waiting for another box of 7x17".

PhotoWarehouse (Ultrafine) just announced that they will be selling new private label films in ISO 100 and 400, probably made by Foma, in 35mm, 120 and sheet sizes. They used to cut custom sheet sizes from Ilford master rolls, so it is likely that they will be able to do the same with these films.

Homebrew chemistry is becoming increasingly popular. A third edition of Steve Anchell's The Darkroom Cookbook is just out. Most bulk chemicals used for photography have other uses, so we'll always be able to develop film.
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
I recently was at a high class wedding in San Francisco. There were 3 photographers each with 3 camera all film except the boss had his middle one a 20D. No gray cards, no white balance just thousands of shots all sent to a pro lab! Everything first class. All the photographer does is take a perfect picture!

Asher

Asher,

Were they shooting 35mm or medium format? When we got married (pre digital days) I insisted on medium format and the photographer delivered some lovely smooth prints in the 'traditional' posed style.

Since then I've seen weddings shot on 35mm and also some very poor digital work, as well as work that I think is out of this world. Possibly the worst was a friends wedding that we went to and the (not immature) photographer shot his 80 pictures with his dslr. When they were delivered every print had the dress burnt out beyond recovery. On that occasion Sue, my better half, had asked me to take my camera along to take some extra pics for the bride and groom, so we were able to give them a boxed set of 45 lovely A4 prints on photorag. There again, I couldn't/wouldn't have worked for what they were charged, so perhaps there's a lesson there.

In another thread you were engaged in discussion about how much resolution is necessary to do justice to a wedding group - the point being that 8Mp is not enough. In my experience a 5D can be marginal for groups unless you can control framing and light fairly closely. I have yet to shoot any groups with the 1Ds3, but I'm hopeful that it will be a reasonable improvement.

Mike
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher,

Were they shooting 35mm or medium format? When we got married (pre digital days) I insisted on medium format and the photographer delivered some lovely smooth prints in the 'traditional' posed style.
Mike,

The super fancy wedding used 35mm film cameras, all Nikons except the one Canon DSLR! Other high level wedding pros have used a Hasselblad or Bronica 6x6 film cameras for the ceremony, the groups and main B&BG series. The rest of the shooting was digital.

I think that a Mamiya 7II would be ideal for this group work and the 6x7 sheet of film will pay back dividends in larger print orders. One does not need a $45,000 top of the line MF digital camera to go first class. As long as one is using a Pro Lab (or has one's own processor), prints are no more work than digital files. The major difference is that film costs are horrendous for large volume work where one can't charge the client back too easily. If one doesn't have a 1DsIII or MF digital, shooting 4-5 rolls of MF film is a really good way to go.
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
Suddenly there is a lot to discuss in this thread. So just a little of my experience and thoughts...

Among the high end wedding market there is Joe Buissink who made his fame by not being just good at seeing the "moments" but also by shooting almost all 3200asa black and white with Nikon F6's and then having superb prints made. And then another good friend of mine shooting high end weddings, works in medium format Tri-X almost exclusively.

I have shot my share of weddings and I do enjoy it. I love the art that can be created. My preference is to shoot medium format film but the cost is very high. Next I would shoot medium format digital and I find it an excellent choice. I have found small format digital, 35mm, just acceptable, it just all looks the same to me. Other people are impressed with it, my work, but to tell you the truth, I am not.

Shooting weddings on film and anything else such as ads or features for that matter can be a competitive advantage. I often have said that it scares the children. You know those kids out there who have never seen film.

At weddings it is normal to see any number of other people bring along their Canons and Nikons and big lenses. You can argue experience all you want but when Uncle Harry comes over with his 5D and says "let's see what you got" you have been demoted. Shoot medium format film and you are held in awe. Same with medium format digital. Yes I could shoot a wedding with a Canon G9 and do better than Uncle Harry but not and charge what I need to charge.

And another example, not weddings.... Among what I shoot is a monthly feature for a magazine. We pick a deserving individual and I do a shoot and write a story. Very often the spouse or significant other will bring along their DSLR and want to shoot behind me. I really don't care because that's me, but when you get the old "let's see yours" comparing the photos on the back of the camera that can be annoying. But with medium format film, again, you are held in awe.

So I find film a competitive advantage.

But even more than that, I like the way it looks.
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
Mike,

The super fancy wedding used 35mm film cameras, all Nikons except the one Canon DSLR! Other high level wedding pros have used a Hasselblad or Bronica 6x6 film cameras for the ceremony, the groups and main B&BG series. The rest of the shooting was digital.

I think that a Mamiya 7II would be ideal for this group work and the 6x7 sheet of film will pay back dividends in larger print orders. One does not need a $45,000 top of the line MF digital camera to go first class. As long as one is using a Pro Lab (or has one's own processor), prints are no more work than digital files. The major difference is that film costs are horrendous for large volume work where one can't charge the client back too easily. If one doesn't have a 1DsIII or MF digital, shooting 4-5 rolls of MF film is a really good way to go.



That's interesting. I've been harbouring a Mamiya wish for some time, and particularly sincestarting to gain a bit of practice scanning 35mm. Sadly, the current economic climate combined with a failed print head may defer the purchase, as it seem to fit a gap nicely. I would quite like to shoot a wedding with an M7 and the ZI, ideally in black and white only.

I was slightly surprised to find people shooting 35mm for wedding work, but I like it for it's difference so others must as well.

Mike
 

Mike Shimwell

New member
Suddenly there is a lot to discuss in this thread. So just a little of my experience and thoughts...

Among the high end wedding market there is Joe Buissink who made his fame by not being just good at seeing the "moments" but also by shooting almost all 3200asa black and white with Nikon F6's and then having superb prints made. And then another good friend of mine shooting high end weddings, works in medium format Tri-X almost exclusively.

I have shot my share of weddings and I do enjoy it. I love the art that can be created. My preference is to shoot medium format film but the cost is very high. Next I would shoot medium format digital and I find it an excellent choice. I have found small format digital, 35mm, just acceptable, it just all looks the same to me. Other people are impressed with it, my work, but to tell you the truth, I am not.

Shooting weddings on film and anything else such as ads or features for that matter can be a competitive advantage. I often have said that it scares the children. You know those kids out there who have never seen film.

At weddings it is normal to see any number of other people bring along their Canons and Nikons and big lenses. You can argue experience all you want but when Uncle Harry comes over with his 5D and says "let's see what you got" you have been demoted. Shoot medium format film and you are held in awe. Same with medium format digital. Yes I could shoot a wedding with a Canon G9 and do better than Uncle Harry but not and charge what I need to charge.

And another example, not weddings.... Among what I shoot is a monthly feature for a magazine. We pick a deserving individual and I do a shoot and write a story. Very often the spouse or significant other will bring along their DSLR and want to shoot behind me. I really don't care because that's me, but when you get the old "let's see yours" comparing the photos on the back of the camera that can be annoying. But with medium format film, again, you are held in awe.

So I find film a competitive advantage.

But even more than that, I like the way it looks.


Ian, I really appreciate this point of view and - apart from the weddings - your monthly piece sounds excellent.

Mike
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
Thanks Mike;

I do shoot a lot of magazine assignments and ads, mostly in the bodybuilding and fitness industry so it is more of a niche that most people don't see. But I have something in a dozen magazines almost monthly and even more online.

I have a new series that has started which takes me to military bases and it is about physical fitness and training. I have already done two and they the first will be out in about 2 months. Very fun!

Anyway this is certainly something that most people would shoot with small format 35mm digital. A lot of it is fast moving, live scenarios and some low light. However I went medium format. The first was shot with a Mamiya 645AFDII with a Phase P30+ back. The second I shot with the Mamiya and 220 color film. On both shoots I did have a Canon 5D over my shoulder as back up and just for a second camera on hand. A 5D with two lenses and a few flash cards weighs little and takes up minimal room.

The medium format results were outstanding and I will continue shooting film. However I am looking forward to trying out one of the new Leaf backs.
 

Chris Marrero

New member
E100g.

I still use and buy film. I have to special order it though.. cause I use that slide film Kodak e100g and still thinks it's the best slide film ever. (sorry fuji)
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
Chris,

Lots of places keep E100G in stock.

Both of my dealers have it on hand that i know of...

Samy's Camera in Los Angeles

The Icon in Los Angeles which is my pro lab http://iconla.com and they have an entire wall of refrigerated film.
 

Daniel Buck

New member
I hope tri-x 320 in 4x5 and 8x10 is not discontinued anytime soon :-(

They already cut down their 8x10 boxes to hold only 10 sheets of film, what a pain :-( At least the 4x5 film still comes in boxes of 50.
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
New York Magazine 40th Anniversary Edition

There is a fabulous portfolio of photos of famous personalities in the magazine shot by photographer Dan Winters. It is all shot on Kodak Portra 160VC. Here is a link to it online...

http://nymag.com/anniversary/40th/50659/

But I must tell you that the online photos do not come near the quality and detail in the print edition.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
There is a fabulous portfolio of photos of famous personalities in the magazine shot by photographer Dan Winters. It is all shot on Kodak Portra 160VC. Here is a link to it online...

http://nymag.com/anniversary/40th/50659/

But I must tell you that the online photos do not come near the quality and detail in the print edition.
Hi Ian,

I noticed the film stamp on the edge too! What camera does he use? I wonder whether it's a Mamiya 7 II? He frames his subjects high.

22.jpg

© Dan Winters Susan Sarandon for editorial comment only


I think his picture of Susan Sarandon is exceptional in showing her strong nature. I wonder how much post-processing and retouching he does? At least on Sarah Jessica Parker he removed her left upper lip mole. I wonder why? Does she ask for that? If she wanted to loose the mole it could be removed perfectly by a surgeon's scalpel. Madonna sued when a magazine edited out her mole! I guess there's a tug of war with what the camera sees and the expectations of beauty set up by movies and glamor ads, the results of hours of make up, perfect lighting and special filters.

Still, overall, Dan winters is fairly brutal in his honesty and the pictures therefore stand out as representing more of the actor and not so much the characters played.

Asher
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
I did some searching and found this from 2005:

"Camera and lenses: 4x5 Sinar F view cameras with 90-, 110-, 120-, 135-, 150-, 180-, 210-, 240- and 360mm lenses—all but the 110mm from Rodenstock."

http://tinyurl.com/2lklyu

I suspected it was going to be a larger format camera with very high f stop availability.
 

Ian L. Sitren

pro member
that is true for probably all photos posted online :)

So true!

When I started shooting more film again, especially medium format, I started printing again, big prints. That really reinforced my belief that we get trapped in an online world and end up not seeing what a tremendous difference a good print makes.

I have some 17x22's across one wall here and when I look at them I honestly find it amazing that I was the photographer. The difference between looking at a well lit, good quality print, and an image on screen is there. But I guess that is why when we go to a gallery or museum to look at amazing photos they are not just shown on flat screens.
 
I would hate to see the film dissapear. But looking at the rate at which dightal has grown in just the last few years, things seem grim for the film-lovers. Even in India, where technology takes years to catch up, I see photo-studios closing down their conventional dark rooms.

I still think film will be around for quite a while, though might become a rare commodity.

regi
 
At Photoplus last week I didn't see too many attendees with film cameras on their persons, but there was a steady line for free film at the Kodak booth, so they've got 'em stashed somewhere. Kodak was particularly promoting their new fine grain/high saturation Ektar 100 color neg film, but I also picked up a roll of the recently updated T-Max 400 in 120, which I haven't tried yet--

FreeFilm,Kodak,Photoplus2008.jpg


Here are a few young gentlemen checking out the Holga offerings at the Freestyle Camera booth-

HipstersandHolgas,Freestyle,Photoplus2008.jpg


The most exciting camera at Photoplus 2008? Yeah, I picked up the 5D MKII, but it was no way nearly as cool as the new Holga 6x12 panoramic pinhole camera you can see there all the way on the right.

I posted a film-centric review of Photoplus over on APUG, for those who are curious about such things--

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum56/55162-photoplus-expo-2008-a.html#post698160
 
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