Rachel Foster
New member
What do you recommend?
and which forum should this question be in?
and which forum should this question be in?
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Monitor calibration
- Thread starter Rachel Foster
- Start date
Edward Bussa
Member
Here's a good link to a review by people who know what their talking about: http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm
One popular option (cheap/value) not mentioned in the review is the Huey...
Also, Datacolor just announced Spyder3 which seems like it should be worth a look...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0710/07102201spyder3.asp
I haven't bought yet, so I can't give a personal recommendation...
One popular option (cheap/value) not mentioned in the review is the Huey...
Also, Datacolor just announced Spyder3 which seems like it should be worth a look...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0710/07102201spyder3.asp
I haven't bought yet, so I can't give a personal recommendation...
Rachel Foster
New member
Thanks! I've seen spyder recommended by others.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Rachel,
What monitor do you have Rachel?
Those with a CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) can be calibrated as there are things that are indeed adjustable. The LCD displays, by contrast, are what they are when they are manufactured and while they may drift from that state as the device ages, the display actually cannot be calibrated. One can alter the brightness, yes that's true, but that is not calibration.
What one does do is to profile the LCD monitor screen output. So various colors are called up by the software then then "puck" one hands over the flat surface, measures that color in hue and intensity and brightness. When all this data is collected, the software creates a table which links the needed color values and the actual colors delivered.
So from now on to get good color that we want, the software creates a Look-Up Table (stored often in the graphic card, (LUT table) by which whenever a particilar color is called for in an image, the software goes to the LUT and then tells the display to deliver a color as close to the true color as possible.
IOW, every picture is made up of colors that are discovered on a map of redirects! This means that one really needs a great record profile.
It turns out that this is easily done.
A Spyder, even an orginal one used is fine. One can do better but to have a benefit you probably need a better display.
Displays are good or bad based on a number of factors including:
Most displays are attractive and sell well for reasons tha don't help us in photography: Razma-taz bright colorful display for showing movies, playing games and impressing friends.
For us, we need:
A stable display where the profile taken today, will be valid an hour from now or tomorrow and the next week. Often the profle will drift as the electronics and lights age. However, at the very least, the profile should be stable for work in between scheduled re-profiling.
All LCD monitors need to be re-profiled at regular intervals.
The display will be most accurate in the center, where it was profiles, but the profile may not apply as accurately as one works one's way to the edges and corners.
More money will deliver a monitor that is more atable and uniform over the screen.
If one has a monitor that is at the lower end and drifts more, then getting the most expensive profiling system is not going to necessarily give one better color. the money is better invested in a more sophisitcated screen.
I tried a Dell 23" monitor. This was the birghtest screen I had seen with very punchy color. Unfortunately the color was drifting too much for trusting enough to know whether one needed to color correct a photograph. Buying a more expensive profiling system would be a waste of money.
I have used the Spyder, version ! and it works! It's a colorimeter, very simple but will do the job. If you can afford a better display, then you can still used the spyder, but then the Gretag MacBeth or Xrite spectrophotmeter are worth getting.
Asher
What monitor do you have Rachel?
Those with a CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) can be calibrated as there are things that are indeed adjustable. The LCD displays, by contrast, are what they are when they are manufactured and while they may drift from that state as the device ages, the display actually cannot be calibrated. One can alter the brightness, yes that's true, but that is not calibration.
What one does do is to profile the LCD monitor screen output. So various colors are called up by the software then then "puck" one hands over the flat surface, measures that color in hue and intensity and brightness. When all this data is collected, the software creates a table which links the needed color values and the actual colors delivered.
So from now on to get good color that we want, the software creates a Look-Up Table (stored often in the graphic card, (LUT table) by which whenever a particilar color is called for in an image, the software goes to the LUT and then tells the display to deliver a color as close to the true color as possible.
IOW, every picture is made up of colors that are discovered on a map of redirects! This means that one really needs a great record profile.
It turns out that this is easily done.
A Spyder, even an orginal one used is fine. One can do better but to have a benefit you probably need a better display.
Displays are good or bad based on a number of factors including:
Most displays are attractive and sell well for reasons tha don't help us in photography: Razma-taz bright colorful display for showing movies, playing games and impressing friends.
For us, we need:
A stable display where the profile taken today, will be valid an hour from now or tomorrow and the next week. Often the profle will drift as the electronics and lights age. However, at the very least, the profile should be stable for work in between scheduled re-profiling.
All LCD monitors need to be re-profiled at regular intervals.
The display will be most accurate in the center, where it was profiles, but the profile may not apply as accurately as one works one's way to the edges and corners.
More money will deliver a monitor that is more atable and uniform over the screen.
If one has a monitor that is at the lower end and drifts more, then getting the most expensive profiling system is not going to necessarily give one better color. the money is better invested in a more sophisitcated screen.
I tried a Dell 23" monitor. This was the birghtest screen I had seen with very punchy color. Unfortunately the color was drifting too much for trusting enough to know whether one needed to color correct a photograph. Buying a more expensive profiling system would be a waste of money.
I have used the Spyder, version ! and it works! It's a colorimeter, very simple but will do the job. If you can afford a better display, then you can still used the spyder, but then the Gretag MacBeth or Xrite spectrophotmeter are worth getting.
Asher
Barry Johnston
New member
Mointor Calibration
Would this help at all ?
Regards,
Barry.
Would this help at all ?
Regards,
Barry.
Rachel Foster
New member
Thanks, Barry, I'll check that out.
Asher, I'm working on a laptop. I'm wondering if this is a problem? I have an HP Pavilion 6567dv.
I'm just about to run adobe gamma.
Asher, I'm working on a laptop. I'm wondering if this is a problem? I have an HP Pavilion 6567dv.
I'm just about to run adobe gamma.
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
Rachel,
Many/most laptops (don't know about yours) are hard to get right, even with an expensive spectrometer. Don't waste too much money on profiling it.
Adobe Gamma doesn't work on LCDs, don't bother.
Bart
Will_Perlis
New member
"Would this help at all ?"
Barry,
Yes. It indicates that an Eye-One Display 2 (What was their naming dept. smoking or injecting?) can do a nice job with my monitor and my video card.
The basic problem is, one can't really tell what gadgets play well with others without trying them unless there's a report on the net about identical gear, and even then ...
It's frustrating.
Barry,
Yes. It indicates that an Eye-One Display 2 (What was their naming dept. smoking or injecting?) can do a nice job with my monitor and my video card.
The basic problem is, one can't really tell what gadgets play well with others without trying them unless there's a report on the net about identical gear, and even then ...
It's frustrating.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Rachel,
The Monitor Calibration chart above is a nice way of looking at your screen. Give us a report!
Then it depends on money. If you can afford a nice LCD monitor then you can get a profile to optmize the appearance of colored images on the screen. Notwithstanding Bart's valuable comments, if you cannot see the color in your files, then you cannot accurately adjust color of your prints. In that case I'd use auto color in your camera and a take a standard exposure using a gray card and register that in your camera. Then I'd be very limited in color corrections unless you have a problem with a print.
Asher
The Monitor Calibration chart above is a nice way of looking at your screen. Give us a report!
Then it depends on money. If you can afford a nice LCD monitor then you can get a profile to optmize the appearance of colored images on the screen. Notwithstanding Bart's valuable comments, if you cannot see the color in your files, then you cannot accurately adjust color of your prints. In that case I'd use auto color in your camera and a take a standard exposure using a gray card and register that in your camera. Then I'd be very limited in color corrections unless you have a problem with a print.
Asher
Rachel Foster
New member
I think I need to check into connecting an external monitor to my lappy. The problem is I can't resist hitting the contrast and it's terribly hard when the monitor isn't true. I think if I connect an external monitor my work might improve.
Edward Bussa
Member
Is there a good resource on color stable displays?
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I don't know a particular site. The displays that come to mind or the Eizo CG 21 and the latest NEC monitors. Do a search for a review and they should compare with like quality PS worhty dosplays. Even a great display should be checked every month at least.
Asher
Asher
Edward Bussa
Member
I've been desiring the Dell UltraSharp 2407FP - I've heard it is the same panel as used in Apple's 24 inch widescreen - do you know of any good or bad regarding this LCD panel?
James Newman
Member
Very interesting and informative thread. I have a 17" LCD display, inexpensive Gateway model, but the image quality, at least to my untrained eye, seems really nice. It works for me at least. I used it merrily for about 3 months and then bought the Spyder to profile it. It really made quite a difference. The reason I got the colorimeter was because a number of people were commenting on the color of my pictures looking a bit off to them in one way or another. I know you can't always go by comments like that because you have no idea what they are using to look at your pictures in the first place. Some were people I know though and they are very religious when it comes to profiling their monitors so I took their word for it. It's been great so far since profiling it but I was wondering, especially after Asher's post, how often should one re-profile their monitor? Ooops. Nevermind the last question. Once a month it is.
Barry Johnston
New member
Monitor Calibration
Rachel,
Here is an interesting page on how to set up your monitor etc, it's quite in depth, but I should imagine be quite accurate.
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#Monitor_test_pattern
Regards,
Barry.
Rachel,
Here is an interesting page on how to set up your monitor etc, it's quite in depth, but I should imagine be quite accurate.
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html#Monitor_test_pattern
Regards,
Barry.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Barry,
Norman Koren is a very color savvy guy! So I looked at the first two images where one should see no wavy lines. Well I saw something! The black and white lines in the center shift up at one point. Nothing wavy at all. No colors at all. It's a pity that then expected normal appearance is not described clearly!!
Right off the bat I can see my monitor, according to the two diagrams for gamma might need recalibrating!!! Ha Ha! Black point may not be set right? I'll have to reprofile my monitor and then check to see how the diagram works again!
Asher
Norman Koren is a very color savvy guy! So I looked at the first two images where one should see no wavy lines. Well I saw something! The black and white lines in the center shift up at one point. Nothing wavy at all. No colors at all. It's a pity that then expected normal appearance is not described clearly!!
Right off the bat I can see my monitor, according to the two diagrams for gamma might need recalibrating!!! Ha Ha! Black point may not be set right? I'll have to reprofile my monitor and then check to see how the diagram works again!
Asher
Barry Johnston
New member
Monitor Calibration.....
Yes, I've been wondering how long I've been using an uncalibrated monitor for !! ?? :~(
I only hope that all my photos so far displayed are alright....
Barry.
Yes, I've been wondering how long I've been using an uncalibrated monitor for !! ?? :~(
I only hope that all my photos so far displayed are alright....
Barry.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
For sure Barry!
So, I wonder how the blue jay gets ready each day without a mirror!
Asher
So, I wonder how the blue jay gets ready each day without a mirror!
Asher
Greg Rogers
New member
Great link, Barry. FWIW, it was this page compliments of Norman where I began my quest into color management several years ago. Quick Gamma is a great utility, and I used it until buying my first colorimeter.
Note: Make sure to remove Quick Gamma before (and after) proper calibration with a colorimeter as well as killing Adobe Gamma)....or things get very messed up.
This is not for Barry's info as I assume he knows it. It would be bad for anyone reading this thread and having a calibrated monitor to install Quick Gamma to take a "look-see".......that's the reason for this post. I can't recall if Norman makes that clear on the linked page or not. No time to check right now.
For Rachel: Because you are using a laptop (me too 95% of the time)....be wary of the wavy line test being discussed on Norman's page. It is very dependent upon where your eyes are positioned vertically with respect to your laptop screen. The solution remains proper calibration with a colorimeter.
-Greg
Will_Perlis
New member
"Well I saw something!"
Asher,
I've never NOT seen some artifact or the other when looking closely at (calibrated) monitors and test pix. I think it's a matter of getting close enough rather than getting to perfect.
Will
Asher,
I've never NOT seen some artifact or the other when looking closely at (calibrated) monitors and test pix. I think it's a matter of getting close enough rather than getting to perfect.
Will
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
This type of charts is best viewed when squinting, looking through your eye lashes. At the actual gamma value there will be a zero contrast differential. The charts are useful for a periodical calibration check.
In addition to display gamma calibration (which is not really possible with LCDs), here is a similar chart (select the gamma 2.2 version) but it expands the idea to RGB gamma curve calibration, I also recommend(*) it to verify accurate profiling(!).
(*) Caveat, the author of that 'AIM-DTP' site is a 'linear gamut' zealot, so take the rest of his pages with that in mind.
Bart
Rachel Foster
New member
Well, I hooked my lappy up to an external monitor (NEC...but I don't remember the specifics) and it makes a big difference. Now I'm on to trying to figure out the calibration.
Rachel Foster
New member
I'm still working on the calibration stuff, but in the meantime, I think I'm getting a handle on the focus issue that keeps coming up. I couldn't see it. My spouse couldn't see it. I'm suspecting the laptop was the problem. I've moved to an old desktop but it's hooked to the aforementioned nec lcd monitor. It's not great, but I saw the fuzziness that everyone kept mentioning.
So, finger on shutter button is gone. All is going to be done with remote shutter release now. I was in the park today and shot with with a 75/300, no is, tripod, and shutter release. This is not offered for compositional elements, just the focus question.
I remember a crusty old curmudgeon on OPF saying weeks ago I should use a tripod and remote shutter release. What was his name...it'll come to me. He was right (but let's not tell him that, ok?).
So, finger on shutter button is gone. All is going to be done with remote shutter release now. I was in the park today and shot with with a 75/300, no is, tripod, and shutter release. This is not offered for compositional elements, just the focus question.
I remember a crusty old curmudgeon on OPF saying weeks ago I should use a tripod and remote shutter release. What was his name...it'll come to me. He was right (but let's not tell him that, ok?).
Rachel Foster
New member
Well, once I put my stuff on an external monitor, I was shocked by what I was seeing. What looked fine and in focus on my laptop is harsh and poorly focused on the external monitor. I managed to get a new 22 inch HP monitor widescreen. Now I'm back to the basics, figuring out what settings I need and lighting works.
And using my remote shutter release for every shot.
And using my remote shutter release for every shot.
Will_Perlis
New member
Rachel,
I'll suggest you take a look at some of Phil Askey's samples for the XTi before you start tinkering.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page30.asp
You can download some at their full resolution to see if their sharpness compares with yours and how the colors show up.
Also, a color checker card will go a long way to relieving anxieties or pin-pointing problems.
I'll suggest you take a look at some of Phil Askey's samples for the XTi before you start tinkering.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page30.asp
You can download some at their full resolution to see if their sharpness compares with yours and how the colors show up.
Also, a color checker card will go a long way to relieving anxieties or pin-pointing problems.
Rachel Foster
New member
Thanks, Will, but the tinkering I'm talking about is with the physical set-up at the shoot. I'll confess...I've managed to acquire an HP desktop with a 22 inch monitor and I'm not touching it for a while. I'm going to work on the "Rachel" factor before I start messing with cams or monitors.
Will_Perlis
New member
Rachel,
IMX it's hard to know if the stuff at the front-end is working right if the back-end isn't. From my side of the monitor the little twig and leaves don't look very sharp at all. That's why I suggested a comparison with some known highly detailed pictures.
IMX it's hard to know if the stuff at the front-end is working right if the back-end isn't. From my side of the monitor the little twig and leaves don't look very sharp at all. That's why I suggested a comparison with some known highly detailed pictures.
Rachel Foster
New member
They don't??? Well maybe a trip to the eye doc is needed then!
In the meantime, I'll ck out your links. Thanks.
In the meantime, I'll ck out your links. Thanks.