Praying

[Antonio Correia]

 

[Asher Kelman]

I hope her prayers come true.

It’s good, Antonio, if one is able to trust that that one’s God, to whom one is devoted, in prayer and belief, really cares about us!

This is a good start for such an inportant series on devotion.

Thanks,

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

What's the difference between hope and pray?

 

[Asher Kelman]

I welcome you to provide your own insight.

 

[Tom dinning]

Any suggestion of knowing or expecting a definite outcome for a future event is guessing.
Some is more informed than other and probability can be calculated but even that is any sort of guarantee.

Wanting a specific outcome is wishful thinking when it comes to the self-interested prayer.

If praying works I’m happy to comply
While it doesn’t I’m happy to ridicule.

 

[Antonio Correia]

The same photo but refined

 

[Asher Kelman]

Antonio,

This is a picture of sincerity, reflection and piety.

It doesn’t matter whether or not the deity is real or not, just that she is certain it is a fact of her existence!

Then prayer might very well be a therapeutic support.

There is no doubt in my mind that prayer as in this woman’s circumstance provides a means of dealing with hardships in life. There is a conviction that a father figure is looking after us, even though what we experience is very hard to endure and fathom!

It appears to prove some comfort and salve to the wounded spirit. It’s lig feeling attention and a hug from a powerless friend that says, I know what to are going through!

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

What's the difference between hope and pray?

Ah!
With hope, oneself and the mankind is involved…
With pray, one depends of "something" whom existence has never been prooved…

PS Sorry @Antonio Correia your image is superb

 

[Antonio Correia]

A refined version

 

[Antonio Correia]

I recreated the file to what I think is a better image

 

[Asher Kelman]

Antonio,

Yes, It’s better!

It is a only tad discoverable, as your pictures are so well prepared.

I would love to now see more in thiscimportant series.

Asher

 

[Antonio Correia]

I am not sure if you have seen this one. I sincerely think it is one of my best.

Chance also played a role here. The lady on the right was there when the one on the left came into the scene and started to pray. I was lucky to get the Sun in her face.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yes , Antonio, I have seen this before and it’s apt and belongs here too. It’s one of the treasures you have kindly shared.

Prayer is a fascinating seeming “necessity” for much of mankind. In itself it’s a beautiful sense of connection of an individual to the conceived higher nature of life and causality!

It is not important for its appreciation and significance whether or not the basis is rational or not.

As you have shown, it can be beautiful and reassuring at its beast!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Good subject Antonio.

Here is one, I posted a while back...

 

[Asher Kelman]

Fahim,

I seem to remember this. It’s particularly interesting in that woman are praying together.

I do not recognize the ritual. Is this Buddhist?

By chance, all these pictures show only women in prayer!

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences.

This picture is a treasure and certainly merits a place here!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Bali. Hindu religion.

Coz, I find females much more pleasant than males. At least the ones I have met.
Others’ opinions, interests, inclinations, and experiences might be different.

Fahim,

I seem to remember this. It’s particularly interesting in that woman are praying together.

I do not recognize the ritual. Is this Buddhist?

By chance, all these pictures show only women in prayer!

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences.

View attachment 1258​

This picture is a treasure and certainly merits a place here!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Fahim,

I’m so ignorant. Even though you too come from a strict conservative society, I think you are ahead of me in openness to others. I deal with it, but I come from a home where my father took a hammer and chisel to a statue work of art, to make it “mumm” or blemished so it couldn’t be used for prayer!

I have never seen an idol to this day, even a except though TV, magazine or the pictures here! But I am open to visiting.

I am thrilled to see us building a broad representative collection of beautiful images of the diverse directions in which man seeks to meet with hand of the almighty!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Your father did the correct thing. I wouldn’t expect anything less from your father or mine.

Fahim,
.....

I deal with it, but I come from a home where my father took a hammer and chisel to a statue work of art, to make it “mumm” or blemished so it couldn’t be used for prayer!

.....

Asher

 

[Antonio Correia]

Thank you Fahim for posting your image in this thread. It was an easy guess... Bali ! The crowded Bali...
Here is another of mines. For the time being I just have 3. I want to reach 6, then I will see what to do...

 

[fahim mohammed]

Let me just post another image, made and posted long time ago...before I respond to something crucial brought up in this thread...

 

[fahim mohammed]

And another one...

 

[fahim mohammed]

Quoting an Australian and a French gentleman responding in this this thread, I waited for someone else to provide an answer. But none was forth coming. Either from long lost missionaries, evangelicals, ' straddling the border ' folks or any one else.

I can only guess at one of the reasons; It is a simple question; but a difficult one to answer.
Made more difficult by the very limited vocabulary of the entire current Anglo-Saxon languages. They are so, so very limited.

But to get myself prepared to provide, what I believe and understand as the difference between ' hope and pray '; what do you understand by the English language term ' pray '? We could be talking of different things.

My friend Nicolas considers ' pray ' as implying dependence on ' something ' whose existence has never been proven. A fair enough definition from his pov.
But that ' something's ' has never been disproven either. One cannot say that just because it has not been proven, it cannot be. Tell Galileo..he knew all about it!!

The other contributor is happy to comply if ' praying ' works; And happy to ridicule ' praying ' ( implicit in the response ) if it doesn't ' work ' ( whatever ' work' is meant by him ).
This is a perfect example of a person referred to in my Holy Book as a ......; no matter.

Both these respondents, are incorrect ( let's say incomplete ) from my interpretation of the English Language word ' praying ' as it is understood in my Language. And I am reasonably conversant with the English Language, its vocabulary, grammar, literature and its nuances.

So pray tell me what you understand by the word 'pray '. Surely it cannot be as simple as dependence on something. Dependence for what, when, why, where...when can you have 'hope' to fulfill that role.Does it mean those who pray to something whose existence has never been proven do not
( cannot ) have hope in that same thing.

I need to understand your understanding of ' prayers '. To me saying ' dates ' ( meaning the fruit, produce of the date palm ) would be a person having little knowledge of what he/she really wants. Which ' dates '. From where? When plucked? What taste? Each one has a different name.
A horse is a horse. To me, once again, is an incomplete noun. Said in a Language with limited expressiveness or a definite attribute of something.

So, what is meant by ' pray '.

I eagerly await and welcome any and all responses. Please enlighten us all, especially me.

What's the difference between hope and pray?

.....
If praying works I’m happy to comply
While it doesn’t I’m happy to ridicule.

Ah!
With hope, oneself and the mankind is involved…
With pray, one depends of "something" whom existence has never been prooved…

.....

 

[Asher Kelman]

Quoting an Australian and a French gentleman responding in this this thread, I waited for someone else to provide an answer. But none was forth coming. Either from long lost missionaries, evangelicals, ' straddling the border ' folks or any one else.

I can only guess at one of the reasons; It is a simple question; but a difficult one to answer.
Made more difficult by the very limited vocabulary of the entire current Anglo-Saxon languages. They are so, so very limited.

But to get myself prepared to provide, what I believe and understand as the difference between ' hope and pray '; what do you understand by the English language term ' pray '? We could be talking of different things.

My friend Nicolas considers ' pray ' as implying dependence on ' something ' whose existence has never been proven. A fair enough definition from his pov.
But that ' something's ' has never been disproven either. One cannot say that just because it has not been proven, it cannot be. Tell Galileo..he knew all about it!!

The other contributor is happy to comply if ' praying ' works; And happy to ridicule ' praying ' ( implicit in the response ) if it doesn't ' work ' ( whatever ' work' is meant by him ).
This is a perfect example of a person referred to in my Holy Book as a ......; no matter.

Both these respondents, are incorrect ( let's say incomplete ) from my interpretation of the English Language word ' praying ' as it is understood in my Language. And I am reasonably conversant with the English Language, its vocabulary, grammar, literature and its nuances.

So pray tell me what you understand by the word 'pray '. Surely it cannot be as simple as dependence on something. Dependence for what, when, why, where...when can you have 'hope' to fulfill that role.Does it mean those who pray to something whose existence has never been proven do not
( cannot ) have hope in that same thing.

I need to understand your understanding of ' prayers '. To me saying ' dates ' ( meaning the fruit, produce of the date palm ) would be a person having little knowledge of what he/she really wants. Which ' dates '. From where? When plucked? What taste? Each one has a different name.
A horse is a horse. To me, once again, is an incomplete noun. Said in a Language with limited expressiveness or a definite attribute of something.

So, what is meant by ' pray '.

I eagerly await and welcome any and all responses. Please enlighten us all, especially me.

Fahim,

Your point about language is well taken.

Just say there’s damage to a vase: it could be chipped, cracked, broken, smashed, crushed or pulverized! The word “damage”, alone itself hardly specifies the parameters, that one would hope to discover.

But in general, we have few examples of standard European language in this example, variants of “break” such as, “to cause to break” or “to smash”, using the same word root.

The word “pray”, Fahim, you pointedly used to mean, “pardon me” or “if you don’t mind”, as in “Sir, pray, (i.e., I beg of you), look at this address again!” But we are interested only in the meaning of “pray” as in the “prayers” we offer in a sense of religious devotion and communication to God. That is what has to be defined for us and differentiated from the word “hope”.

One answer comes from a Tom Dinning, a talented shooter but devout cynic who boasts of his “indifference to other folk’s feelings”, and seems to dismiss prayer with relish, ....

.....but I do not know whether or not what he claims is true...... or not!

The other, Nicolas Claris, another outstanding photographer in his own right, is totally tolerant of other folk’s cultural behaviors, .....

...... up to the point where public and private freedoms fought for in France in the name of the equal “citoyen”, might be abridged, threatened, disrespected or intimidated in the slightest degree!

It seems that the understanding of any word such as “pray” or “hope” could be directed by these two very different personal stances that both display to us.

I don’t read minds, so I assume that what they say is the truth of what they really feel.

However for me to describe “pray” and “hope” I will have to rely only on my own education and cultural perspective and limited expressions in languages.

I will think carefully and try to come up with a succinct answer!

Asher

 

[Tom dinning]

My great granddaughter said to me: "I don't pray any more. it doesn't work"
What an astute child.
I'm not suggesting she was correct in her procedures for verification and her observations and conclusions were not scrutinised by her peers or academic experts in the field. That would be presumptuous of me.
Nevertheless, her statement does bring to the surface a minor point of any hypothesis.
Making a statement such as: 'There is a god.' doesn't make it true or even close to true; its just a statement: an opinion, if you wish.
And because it's said by many, doesn't make it any truer.
So, praying to an opinion seems fruitless in the least and dangerous and life-threatening at the most.

As for disproving the existence of a deity; that, in itself is totally irrelevant and unnecessary. That sort of argument is downright dishonest. Because one thing cant be proved does not immediately make any or all other possibilities correct. Such a false argument would certainly lead us up the garden path.

One cannot say that just because it has not been proven, it cannot be. Tell Galileo..he knew all about it!!

Its unlikely that any of us would be able to ask Galileo about anything. Name dropping doesn't work here. I doubt if you, Fahim, have a complete grasp of Galileo's words or ideas. They have been upgraded somewhat since his day as well. Besides, you might not have as firm a grasp of the English language as you profess. I read your words with interest but I'm not astounded by your vocabulary or grammar; just interested in the content.

This all started because I asked what I thought was a simple question created by a passing thought when I viewed the photograph.

Isn't it amazing how we are driven by our own agenda when responding?

And yes, I am a fervent anti-theist and atheist. Religion has fucked up more lives that it has saved. If I can make a difference I will. But that is as unlikely as a Morman changing my mind when I'm stopped in the street. I always ask the question: "What if it WERE proven that there is no GOD? Would you still believe"?
Guess what the answer always is?

 

[fahim mohammed]

Tom, your granddaughter or your family is of the least interest to me.

You seem to have skipped your meds Tom. Or was it your fortnightly consultation with your medical savior that you skipped?
It shows in your posts.

Galileo! Tom, you really prove by your words that you really are as uneducated as you think you are. Centuries before Galileo, people had already questioned the Ptolemaic ideas. And please, don’t tell me about Galileo. Where did you learn about him? Was it from Angels and Demons?
More likely from the demons that swirl in the small mass between your ears. Angels, you don’t believe in.

I too read your musings with bemusement. It is then that I realize the Blessings that have been given me.
Your English, you must have learnt it in the Outback. It shows.

The time to Believe is when there is doubt. It is too late, when the time comes!

By the way, tell your granddaughter to remind you to take your meds. And pray for you. Or at least wish you well, since she has stopped praying.

My great granddaughter said to me: "I don't pray any more. it doesn't work"
What an astute child.
I'm not suggesting she was correct in her procedures for verification and her observations and conclusions were not scrutinised by her peers or academic experts in the field. That would be presumptuous of me.
Nevertheless, her statement does bring to the surface a minor point of any hypothesis.
Making a statement such as: 'There is a god.' doesn't make it true or even close to true; its just a statement: an opinion, if you wish.
And because it's said by many, doesn't make it any truer.
So, praying to an opinion seems fruitless in the least and dangerous and life-threatening at the most.

As for disproving the existence of a deity; that, in itself is totally irrelevant and unnecessary. That sort of argument is downright dishonest. Because one thing cant be proved does not immediately make any or all other possibilities correct. Such a false argument would certainly lead us up the garden path.

One cannot say that just because it has not been proven, it cannot be. Tell Galileo..he knew all about it!!

Its unlikely that any of us would be able to ask Galileo about anything. Name dropping doesn't work here. I doubt if you, Fahim, have a complete grasp of Galileo's words or ideas. They have been upgraded somewhat since his day as well. Besides, you might not have as firm a grasp of the English language as you profess. I read your words with interest but I'm not astounded by your vocabulary or grammar; just interested in the content.

This all started because I asked what I thought was a simple question created by a passing thought when I viewed the photograph.

Isn't it amazing how we are driven by our own agenda when responding?

And yes, I am a fervent anti-theist and atheist. Religion has fucked up more lives that it has saved. If I can make a difference I will. But that is as unlikely as a Morman changing my mind when I'm stopped in the street. I always ask the question: "What if it WERE proven that there is no GOD? Would you still believe"?
Guess what the answer always is?

 

[Asher Kelman]

Concerning prayer, Leonard Cohen, (one of the greatest singers of feelings in the 20th Century), gave us “So Long Marianne”, with the famous words,

“We forget to pray for the angels
and then the angels forget to pray for us!”

I had never before though of this reciprocal arrangement!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Angels can pray for themselves. They shouldn’t need our prayers or help!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Angels can pray for themselves. They shouldn’t need our prayers or help!

But it’s still interesting the idea nevertheless, Fahim. How can we expect good when we don’t look after others? Just the thought of the poet challenges us, it doesn’t redefine prayer!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Fahim,

To pray is to ask for something. It is used in a rather archaic phrase that is still sometimes used for ironic effect, "pray tell" : "So, pray tell, what do you plan to do with the 100 quarter inch drill bits?"

In American legal practice, the part at the end of a civil suit filing where the plaintiff asks the court to do something (perhaps declare that the other guy in fact owes you USD 1500.00) is often called (but not labeled as) the prayer. And in some cases of flowery language in a legal pleading, we may read that "Plaintiff thus earnestly prays for. . ."

In the context of theist religion, prayer is usually asking God for something: perhaps to heal a loved one who is ill, or assure that our favorite baseball team wins the World Series.

Hope, as a verb, is to wish for some good outcome: "I hope the camera battery comes today". Hope, as a noun, is an optimistic outlook: "We should have hope for the continued success of our civilization."

Best regards,

Doug

 

[fahim mohammed]

Thank you Doug for your response.

Simple question, with not such a simple answer, that I can give.

Kindest regards.