Pricing Photographer's work! Pitfall of cheap!

[nicolas claris]

Alain
I'm glad you had a fair discussion with Asher and that things seems to come right for both of you!
But let me please point to you, that when you write:

I also see a discrepancy between the hourly cost and the quality of the work. I don't see that the work displayed on this site is worth $300 per hour. Now this may not be Joe's best work, or the web images may not show it to its advantage, but that is the way it comes accross to me when I look at it from the eyes of a potential customer. Eventually, all I have is what is on the web to make up my mind. I also do not quite understand why photographing children is billed at $75 per hour and adults at $300 per hour. What costs less in the process? Why not the opposite? Fact is, your fee shouldn't be based on the subject. It should be based on you and the quality of your work. Why make people feel like photographing their children is less valuable?

You bring real usefull information for a lot of members here.
This should even start a new forum in OPF, something like:"How should we bill and value our work?"

Of course I understand that, going deeply into this subject comes into your courses, but in another way it should help the pro community to keep sales in good rates and shapes, instead of going down because of foolish beginners (no itention here to nobody) willing to start and trying to get customers with low fares… a real educationnal work we (those that can make photography our living) have to do. For our own sake!

Cheers (well it's breakfast time here… no Bordeaux wine at that time)

 

[Asher Kelman]

Professional Pricing: Newbies low-ball pricing at the Pros Peril!

Alain
I'm glad you had a fair discussion with Asher and that things seems to come right for both of you!
But let me please point to you, that when you write:
You bring real usefull information for a lot of members here.
This should even start a new forum in OPF, something like:"How should we bill and value our work?"

Of course I understand that, going deeply into this subject comes into your courses, but in another way it should help the pro community to keep sales in good rates and shapes, instead of going down because of foolish beginners (no itention here to nobody) willing to start and trying to get customers with low fares… a real educationnal work we (those that can make photography our living) have to do. For our own sake!

Cheers (well it's breakfast time here… no Bordeaux wine at that time)

This is so very important!

Weekend wedding wannabe photographers who befriend "nice people" really are a problem. I have written about this before. First they can screw up a wedding and that, although punishment from heaven, actually hurts everyone!

Well hows so?

1. Low prices make it more difficult for the full time Pro to earn a living. Surgeons don't face that! Except for some ad hoc blade action in the twilight areas of town, surgeons have a monopoly on pricing.

Kevin Goodboy get a 20D. So he's now a photographer! Price is no issue. Online it's cheap. Why not chargew $5 a print, well that's not fair, make it $2.

2. Poor workOf course you can make good sunset shots and show a moldel's skin against the northern light at dusk! But can you make a bride look radiant? Do you know all the special shots brides want? What happens when things go wrong: your camera doesnt work, you flash was stolen, the priest won't allow flash in the massive dark church?

Can you get the shot?

Last year one nice but rather naughty nature photographer lady forgot about rain and then had no idea how to deal limited inside space, with cheap wood panels, odd lighting she never imagined and underpowered flash. The pictures were, of course, disappointing.

When things go wrong, all photographers suffer as it seems there's no professionality.

So what justifies higher prices

1. you have absolute certainty that if the bride is breathing you will make a wonderful picture, no matter what.

2. you have invested in apprenticeship at low pay to get the needed skills.

3. you have invested in redundency of equipment. You never go to a wedding with a least 2 of everything, better 3 of everything.

Now if you are not going to do all these things, please don't do wedding photography!

If you are, make sure you fees are as high as the market can bear or else, next year you will be expected to be even lower. Don't think you can siphonwork from someone else by having lower prices.

Get a better portfolio! do better work.

So price structure is very important. This area is so critical that I am concerned that prices get put in websites. I don't know the answer. For my part, if you can deliver a wedding package of pictures as expected on time, you deserve a big fee. The key is how to get it!

What it idepends on is your market and your competition. Just get it right! Don't be labelled as the $75 an hour nice guy for kids and think then you can get $300 an hour for a wedding.

Asher

 

[Ray West]

contentious - as usual...

Many of the pricing issues are the same for any sort of business. Unless there is legal registration requirements, no amount of asking part-timers to charge professional prices will stop them undercutting professional prices. Most people these days tend to buy most things based on price, other things being equal, more or less. Most know the cost, but not the value.

I suspect the full time pro's are buying things on the cheap, when they can, I mean there are plenty of places dearer than B&H. So, the new guy subsidises his costs from his day job, since he may never have heard of B&H, whatever. I can't see the difference. You just got to get used to it. Make sure you can do something he can't do, possibly, dare I say, try and work together some how? Also, I have a gut feeling that most photographers came into 'it' from other areas, initially developed as a hobby, then started charging for their stuff, probably lower than what they now said they should.

In a similar way that cable/satellite tv has increased the demand for cheap video production, then the advent of digital cameras has allowed a plethora of cheap still images, encouraged by the media asking for folk to send in imagess from cell phones, etc. So, in like manner, the folk who get good enough snaps from the local supermarket for less than a dollar a pop, will not always understand why they need pay maybe $20.00 just 'cos someone else pressed the button.

The traditional film camera type of photographer, will be going the way of the 17th century portrit painters, so perhaps the answer is for the pro to get a part time job, so he can charge less?

Best wishes,

Ray <ducking and running in a zig-zag fashion....>

 

[Dave New]

Tough Toenails

Yep, what Ray said.

No amount of belly-aching will get other folks to change what they charge, and you have no right to force them to, barring some restrictive trade organization or licensing authority.

Get used to it.

As the game changes, you must adapt, or die.

Finally, I don't understand what gives folks the right to insist that they must 'educate' the masses (or their peers/competition) so they can maintain the level of comfortable living they are used to. There is no natural law that states that the world owes you a living. It's not even in the US constitution (despite what a number of corporations would attempt to have you believe).

 

[J. Schiavo]

hmm

my work... well, i guess i appreciate the honesty.

i'll admit i am not the best of the best. but i would like to say a few things:

i don't make friends with nice folks in order to sell our services. i don't post wedding photos often because they're in our private gallery. i consider client preferences for privacy paramount in my list of business concerns. i think our portfolio speaks for itself, which is why we get business. my prices are fair in comparison to the folks who work around these parts. and i agree that just because someone has a 20D, it doesn't make them a photographer or an artist. at the same time, i can shoot better with an S80 than most people can with a 1Ds MKII. and that's a fact.

selling myself is what i am new to... managing my own web site simultaneously while setting appointments, printing, editing, and Aperture (the program from Apple)... this is why i joined the forum. separating my website is an idea i am moving on. again, an idea i solicited from here.

prices, well, some folks don't want to pay a lot of money for their kids to get photographed. why bother to pay someone to shoot their kids when they can get it done at a 10th of the price in the school.

Marketing strategy is new to me. i have been building and repairing PC's for YEARS. i have been working with Photoshop since 1997. i have been shooting digital since i could afford to make the switch. web-site is 4 months old, and in that time, i have not had time to scratch my butt, let alone build on ideas of how to improve it.

as for your insinuation of incredulity regarding my hourly pricing and suggestions about my inexperiences and poor workmanship/amateur references, all i have to say is thank you. i appreciate you showing me who you are.

i am trying to leave corporate America and begin my own business because i grow tired of living in a high school-like environment. my talent and drive exceeds my ability to remain complacent and conform to a bunch of lies created by stiffled old men/women who know nothing of what life is REALLY about. being in a sewing circle was not why i joined this forum. i fear that this is what has happened. as such, i appreciate your help, thank you for showing me who you are, best wishes to you.

 

[Ray West]

Hi Joe,

Joe, you really managed to sell yourself. wrt us stiffled old folk, who know nothing about what life is really about. Well, I also used to be able to write my name in the snow, now I can't even manage my initials, such is the effect of global warming.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Asher Kelman]

my work... well, i guess i appreciate the honesty.

as for your insinuation of incredulity regarding my hourly pricing and suggestions about my inexperiences and poor workmanship/amateur references, all i have to say is thank you. i appreciate you showing me who you are.

Joe,

This is perhaps MY fault and your complete misunderstanding. The remarks about amateurs with a 20D competing for weddings was not addessed to you!

I addressed it to those who would compete with you at low prices and have little investment, aren't dedicated to photography , it's just a hobby and don't come prepared with backup.

This is no grannie club but a place where we try to help each other in practical ways.

Don't take it wrong.

Each person who gave advice does it for solid reasons. But each has different experience and work hard earning money each in different arenas. So for example in pricing, they may not appreciate the reality of your world. fine, just ignore that. However, there's still a lot of advice shared tha is great.

Re the website: I know a lot of great and successful photographers with "unformed" hardly developed or presentable websites! If it were critical, they would attend it to it.

Think of these as menu options which you choose or not!

We are really a good bunch, so don't get mad or else you will have proven me wrong for daring to be open. Remeber, if only half of advice is great you are ahead.

You just reject what does not apply!

Kind wishes,

Asher

 

[J. Schiavo]

stiffled old people comment was for the people i currently work for at my other job right now. apologies for writing improperly mr. west.

I do appreciate your help. The folks that wrote and truly wanted to help, I appreciate. For what it is worth, those people are NOT what I am upset with.

Our site is what we could afford. Our cameras and backups are what we could afford. Our lenses are the best L Lenses we can afford. Our new printer is what we could afford. I work 40+ hours a week in a corporate job in phoenix for a major company where I have to deal with politics, bs, and flat out fake people on top of putting in an additional 50+ hours/week at this photography bit, for which we are making no money... But we continue to do it because we ARE good at what we do and we improve each time we go out. I tire of the nasty commentary from the "sewing circles" created in corporate america. that is why i seek to CHANGE MY LIFE

The thought of "what did people do without forums" comes to mind often for me, as I have gotten positive and negative results. In the corporate world, I am not considered PC because I say what is on my mind, and I speak out when I see something wrong, and I also am able to do my job better than my superiors. I am not going to live the rest of my life in that fashion. Especially when I can shoot better than most people who are published multiple times and have gone to school for this, while I have studied it on my own and through practical examples have created almost something from almost nothing.

As for my comment about old and stifled men, well that was pertaining to the dirt bags that run my current company, not you guys.

Apologies to all who were offended and for not understanding what was going on.

later

 

[Asher Kelman]

Joe,

Glad you are around!

I just hope we are part of the massive world that is able to reach out in a helpful way to others.

There's a lot here that want you and your wife to succeed in your enterprise! Keep us updated and post a picture when you can!

I'd like the Porche!

Asher

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

I must say I agree with Ray. While I certainly understand the sentiment, hopefully your work speaks for itself, and the prices are justified.

If a couple chooses to be pennywise and hire the amateur photographer, well...you get what you pay for...usually.

With the same reasoning as expressed by others, the professional photographer, who is being undercut by the amateur, should charge the same rate as for example Annie Leibovitz?

Should a weekend garage band charge the same for their concert as The Rolling Stones? Of course not.

Wouldn't you cry foul if the amateur photographer you hired charged the same price as the pro, only to produce amateurish results?

I must be missunderstanding something, because I can't see how this is a problem.

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

I am following this...as a new Pro

I keep hearing established professionals whining about the new photographers pricing. On all the photography boards that I lurk at. Here is my take on the subject.

First I will tell you that I have had a camera in hand for thirty years and yes, I am a professional photographer. I did my first professional shoot yesterday. I am really happy with the results and so is my client. I studied to make the shoot be what the client expected in result. I shot 150 images for a website for a regular client. My lifestyle is actually supported by being a self employed Business Consultant doing Bookeeping/Accounting and Accounting Software training and helping new businesses and entrepreneurs with the administrative and financial side of business. I LOVE what I do. If I go to the Yellow Pages, I can find people who will do bookkeeping for $15-20. per hour. There will always be new people with fewer skills willing to charge less than you do. They might use inferior or unlicensed software, not have insurance, or employees or other overhead. Maybe they don't take the classes I have taken and continue to take. Certainly they do not the knowledge and experience I have. They really aren't my competition. I've been working in the Financial arena for 30 years. I have branded myself with specific knowledge and quality in my work. I work hard and have integrity in what I do. Honesty is foremost. I give the client more than they expect and they know that I really care about their bottom line.

Now apply this same thought to Photography. People who know the difference in lighting, composition, using depth of field, posing, - you all know what we are talking about and then the newbie who is looking to pay for their gear vs those who have make a living and lifestyle with their work. This work does have a subjective element to it. (so does Accounting, by the way - but most people don't know that)

But here is the key - Branding yourself. Selling yourself. Educating the end buyer. You have to teach them - even if there is a budget and they can't afford you. You have to teach them why their budget is wrong. Show them the difference. Why your images are worthwhile. Or why are you going after the wrong client for you? Also, the clients pick up on negativity. They don't want to hear you talk trash about your competition. They need to see your value and why you deserve to be paid what you are charging. Even if you aren't openly complaining to the client- they feel that energy. I've seen it over and over again.

So go find your real target market and take some marketing classes. Be proactive. Learn to public speak, network and shake hands, and educate your potential clients. But stop whining - it's not professional.

 

[ChrisDauer]

But here is the key - Branding yourself. Selling yourself. Educating the end buyer. You have to teach them - even if there is a budget and they can't afford you. You have to teach them why their budget is wrong. Show them the difference. Why your images are worthwhile. Or why are you going after the wrong client for you? Also, the clients pick up on negativity. They don't want to hear you talk trash about your competition. They need to see your value and why you deserve to be paid what you are charging. Even if you aren't openly complaining to the client- they feel that energy. I've seen it over and over again.

So go find your real target market and take some marketing classes. Be proactive. Learn to public speak, network and shake hands, and educate your potential clients. But stop whining - it's not professional.

Well spoken. I couldn't agree more. A professional needs to offer professional quality. Additionally, they need to convince the client of this. Without that, they have nothing. The market will only support what it will support, and a lot of that is determined by the presentation of themselves and their portfolio.

 

[Charles Stirling]

OK, most here seem to agree that pricing can vary for different reasons but for someone starting out on the professional trail or at least thinking they want to. The problem still seems to be “What is a reasonable price? verses what is cheap” Where does one learn this?

For instance, I've just been asked by a tourist board about some of my photos. They have been helpful in getting me to the location and naturally ask if I will just let them use the photos. I explain I need to make a living so can't do that. I don't want to give them RF rights so they can let others use the photos for brochures but how do I manage Licenced use with them? I can check prices for some uses but this is potentially more open, how do I price this to be realistic not cheap?

This is the sort of pricing questions I end up with. Any suggestions?

 

[Mark Vigna]

I keep hearing established professionals whining about the new photographers pricing. On all the photography boards that I lurk at. Here is my take on the subject.

First I will tell you that I have had a camera in hand for thirty years and yes, I am a professional photographer. I did my first professional shoot yesterday. I am really happy with the results and so is my client. I studied to make the shoot be what the client expected in result. I shot 150 images for a website for a regular client. My lifestyle is actually supported by being a self employed Business Consultant doing Bookeeping/Accounting and Accounting Software training and helping new businesses and entrepreneurs with the administrative and financial side of business. I LOVE what I do. If I go to the Yellow Pages, I can find people who will do bookkeeping for $15-20. per hour. There will always be new people with fewer skills willing to charge less than you do. They might use inferior or unlicensed software, not have insurance, or employees or other overhead. Maybe they don't take the classes I have taken and continue to take. Certainly they do not the knowledge and experience I have. They really aren't my competition. I've been working in the Financial arena for 30 years. I have branded myself with specific knowledge and quality in my work. I work hard and have integrity in what I do. Honesty is foremost. I give the client more than they expect and they know that I really care about their bottom line.

Now apply this same thought to Photography. People who know the difference in lighting, composition, using depth of field, posing, - you all know what we are talking about and then the newbie who is looking to pay for their gear vs those who have make a living and lifestyle with their work. This work does have a subjective element to it. (so does Accounting, by the way - but most people don't know that)

But here is the key - Branding yourself. Selling yourself. Educating the end buyer. You have to teach them - even if there is a budget and they can't afford you. You have to teach them why their budget is wrong. Show them the difference. Why your images are worthwhile. Or why are you going after the wrong client for you? Also, the clients pick up on negativity. They don't want to hear you talk trash about your competition. They need to see your value and why you deserve to be paid what you are charging. Even if you aren't openly complaining to the client- they feel that energy. I've seen it over and over again.

So go find your real target market and take some marketing classes. Be proactive. Learn to public speak, network and shake hands, and educate your potential clients. But stop whining - it's not professional.

Kathy is right .
Keep in mind what we do is different from a "regular " job. If it was easy everyone would do it!So your approach has to be different. Many creative types do not have business skills. That's why Billy Joel has a business manager. To handle the business side of things.
We don't have the budget for such things . So we do it ourselves.
Take for example coffee. The dinner sells coffee. Starbucks sells coffee. Big difference in price but both sell. Some people are happy with the dinner stuff. But many - myself included see and pay the difference to get the Starbucks.
I prefer to offer quality to the clientel that sees the difference.
But you need to continue to evolve. The digital world has changed everything.
So many times I have spoken with film photographers refusing to go digital. Because "it's not up to my standards" . Please, give me a brake. These dinosaurs are not evolving and will loose in the end.
If someone wants to shop based on price you may not want them for a client. So it is up to you to be creative and find new opportunities.
Just my two cents
Mark

 

[Steve Fines]

Hello,

I come at this from a little bit different angle - selling fine art prints to individuals, businesses, etc. in central Minnesota (generally smaller towns).

Two thoughts to add:

1. I have found that my prices vary by market. I have a print that will consistently sell at $100 at one venue, but I have to lower the price to $30 to sell it at another venue. Year after year. From the original post it is not that the hourly value of my work varies, but simply that different groups of people place different values on art. Especially in smaller rural towns - folks have an idea of what something is worth and will tell you you're full of bs if you push that.

2. I have come across a good bit of resentment from other artists when I sell a print (for example) for $30. However, after several years I know that I can sell 10 at $30 much faster than one at $300 in a given market. The price might be higher elsewhere - it just varies to make the end of the day take as high as possible. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Jerome Love]

I hate to bring up an old post, but as a new photographer I completely agree with Asher on this one. I made a mistake early on in my career ( I'm 17 but have been doing this for 3 years) to try and make sure I got whatever job came my way, whether it's prices or giving away prints. Now I've made the effort to get a low-paid internship and build on my skills and portfolio. I've also built up my gear list to show that I am a serious amateur/semi-pro (whatever you wanna call it. I shoot with a 1d and 24-70). And all of this I learned AFTER I did some reading ( The Big Picture: A Photographer's Guide to Rates, Rights and Usage (?)) in books, on forums and with pros. Bottom Line: It's the personal effort to get educated, get gear and work for your firm asking rate. I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead bush but I hope this helps.

 

[David Sommars]

I think the problem is the weekend warriors that arent looking to enter full time, they dont always care for the client. But the ones trying to transition over usually are fantastic.

One question to keep in mind, are you losing a job that the B&G could not afford to hire you personally for anyways, then its not really lost work. I would only take a 500$ wedding if it was like 3 hours, I would shoot jpg and burn on the spot. No asistant thats it.

Im confident enough about my pictures that I know Id get the shot. But , Id rather not take those jobs on if I can help it. Usually they are the worst and in the worst locations too, nothing you can use for your portfolio, screw it.

 

[Nick Reader]

Limited Edition Prints

This is my first posting on OPF, I am trying to find an answer to question about Limited Edition Prints. I had an Exhibition recently where i sold limited edition 15'x30' framed prints. I have limited this range to 75. Many people have asked if thy could have the same picture but smaller like 6'x12' and not in a frame (Just in a matt (U.S) or mount (U.K.)) If i do this for them would it have to be part of the 75 limited edition or could this be a new open edition? I have had mixed response form a couple of friends. I want to know what the industry thinks.

I hope this is posted in the right forum. www.nickreader.com

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

This is my first posting on OPF, I am trying to find an answer to question about Limited Edition Prints. I had an Exhibition recently where i sold limited edition 15'x30' framed prints. I have limited this range to 75. Many people have asked if thy could have the same picture but smaller like 6'x12' and not in a frame (Just in a matt (U.S) or mount (U.K.)) If i do this for them would it have to be part of the 75 limited edition or could this be a new open edition? I have had mixed response form a couple of friends. I want to know what the industry thinks.

Every print size can be a separate edition. So a 6x12 print does not count as part of the run of 75 15x30 prints. Whether a print is matted or framed has nothing to do with whether or not a print is a limited edition (unless you are doing a limited run of 75 signed mattes <smile>).

enjoy your day,

Sean

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Hi Nick,

Just what Sean said. Also, you might want to read this thread.

Cheers,

 

[Alain Briot]

Good point.

Also, please know that I revised this essay (The Numbering Affair) and that the revised version is both expanded and different.

If you already read it prior to the revision you need to read it again because the changes are significant. I actually think I will include it in my next book.

Here's the link again:

http://beautiful-landscape.com/Thoughts88-Numberting%20prints.html

 

[Trudy Montgomery]

Pricing Game?

I agree with Kris and he makes a very good analogy here.....

......

With the same reasoning as expressed by others, the professional photographer, who is being undercut by the amateur, should charge the same rate as for example Annie Leibovitz?

Should a weekend garage band charge the same for their concert as The Rolling Stones? Of course not.

Wouldn't you cry foul if the amateur photographer you hired charged the same price as the pro, only to produce amateurish results?

I must be missunderstanding something, because I can't see how this is a problem.

So how does a newbie photographer (transitioning from hobbie to pro) even go about setting up a pricing structure, that is reasonable, and the most he/she can get?

I'd like to know how you Pro's started out and how you have evolved in skill and price and how the two have flowed together?

Did you always charge what you charge today? (I doubt it) and at what point(s) do you decide 'hey, I'm good at this and I'm going to raise my prices'?

~trudy

 

[Alain Briot]

I detail my experience going from just starting out to making a full time living from photography in this essay:

http://luminous-landscape.com/columns/Artist1.shtml

This is a 3 parts essay. I think they are all linked at the end of each essay, but if they are not let me know and I'll post the other links.

These essays are also available compiled in a single essay in my book Mastering Landscape Photography.

 

[Trudy Montgomery]

Alain,

Thank you for the great essays! I've spent too much of my day reading them (and others on your site). I am grateful you have taken so much time to help educate and share your knowledge so freely! Thank you, Thank you!

~trudy

 

[Alain Briot]

Alain,

Thank you for the great essays! I've spent too much of my day reading them (and others on your site). I am grateful you have taken so much time to help educate and share your knowledge so freely! Thank you, Thank you!

~trudy

Trudy,

You are welcome There is more coming soon. My current writings are on color, composition and what makes a good photograph.

Alain