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secret forums in the net ....

Stephen Eastwood said:
famous photographers do not want to be found out as having asked an elementary question, its just a state of being they don't fear ridicule as much as a lessoning of status in the minds of others.
What a stupid thing to do. One of the most intelligent, learned, and wise behaviors I ever learned from a mentor was the ability to say wait while I think, please repeat that, or simply asking to hear something another way. Such lack of understanding is the mark of someone actually paying attention to what you are saying and I have never seen it done by the unintelligent. Hence, I repeat, what a stupid thing to do. To be ruled by one's ego rather than results and improvement of one's ability to achieve results is a rather sad and pitiful (too nice a word, but I cannot think of better at the moment) state of being.

But then, I have one of the fastest mental arithmetic calculators I have met was a roofer and not a mathematician. Greatness in a subject and excellence in its details do not necessarily go hand in hand. But the ability to admit gaps in ones purview is a mark of greatness, excellence, and mastery of a subject.

In short, such a set of stupid (repeated again with intent) ideals makes me think such realms would not be terribly helpful in furthering ones vision.

[edit: text added]

In truth, the scariest thought of such realms is your mention of fear. Such fear would simply destroy rapport and without that there is no deep communication.
[/edit]

some nasty but honest thoughts,

Sean
 

Mary Bull

New member
Rapport.

What a great word!

The best and most fundamental tool in the mentor/learner or teacher/student toolbox.

Mary
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sean,

I know you are correct, but the word stupid, is maybe not the word to use. If you wish to reference a rational professor able to teach in a university, yes, you might be correct.

By contrast, that strict ruler would be of no use to measure behavior of an artist who know by experience, does great work and does not have any of the teaching skills you admire.

So, for example, one could have a great painter, who knew nothing about rules of perspective, but painted that way since that's what he saw and felt.

He could be socially uncomfotable in a forum with academics. I feel we might be sensitve to that!

Well that is what I believe Stephen refers to. Ridicule is powerful. Preachers, priests, prostitutes, professors, people who play bridge, chess or who place armies in to challenge others power, all know how to act, put on airs, hide pain and then bluff through failures.

The other folks in the same position cannot hide angst so well and might thus be readily humiliated.

Asher
 

Ray West

New member
A bit of a ramble...

fwiw,

In more recent times, compared to my student days, I heard of the 'Mpemba effect'. The story provides a parable cautioning experts against dismissing the observations of amateurs.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

(You need to read down towards the bottom of the page)

Although a horse is a four legged animal, and not all four legged animals are horses, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck, (or a guy with piles out hunting for duck).

Every body knows something more than someone else, ergo the best way to learn is from each other. A good teacher can facilitate a learning environment, and allow the pupils to reach their true potential. This principle can be applied in non - critical situations, such as most types of photography. However, in a health/life threatening situation, then clear firm instructions are required, at least initially. I think the differing techniques depend a bit on whether we are dealing with subjective or objective ideas. i.e. in the photography world, it may be different if discussing 'does this look better than that' cf 'what colour settings should I use to make this look like that'.

An important aspect is to be able to stand in your 'pupil's shoes'. When you read a camera manual that is too technical, too many cross referances, it is because the author has not been able to stand in 'your shoes'. Equally, it helps if as a pupil, you can stand in your teacher's shoes, see where he's coming from. Interchange is critical.

When I started into engineering, I had a review at my local tech. college, after a few weeks. The principal mentioned a lecturer he had sacked a few weeks previously. The lecturer was an 'acknowledged expert in his field'. He was sacked because the principal had noted that he always made sure he kept something back, did not fully share his knowledge.

I guess the above combine, to make me concentrate more on the mesage than the messenger, why I am deliberately? bad at remembering names, why I think that perhaps the most important word is 'creation', why I wish I could have written 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull' (but the next best thing is to be able to read it, does that 'date me'?)

Best wishes,

Harold </introspective mode>
 

Mary Bull

New member
Speaking personally

on a personal note:

Asher, I was scared to death when I decided to sign up for OPF, having intended only to lurk and read without registering--this was in August, when New Posts etc. were still available without logging in.

And then, when I decided to post, I did so in the throes of great private social anxiety.

My feeling that the people here are my kind of people gave me courage to over-ride my personal fear of rejection. I do understand how other people might be feeling anxious, both potential teachers and potential learners here.

For me, it's akin to stage fright--a very real psychological phenomenon among actors (although I've never acted) and other performers. Have felt it participating in music recitals and band concerts.

The kind of empathy you describe as needed is something I hope to help provide in abundance toward the people I interact with at OPF.

And I hope to continue receiving it in the abundance with which it has been offered to me at this wonderful set of fora.

Mary
 

Bev Sampson

New member
Being a serious hobbiest/amateur, I can understand the feeling of insecurity when posting in a forum like this one that is host to so many experts. But that's what I love about this forum and why I am here, because it affords me an opportunity to learn and to receive criticism.

However, Mary, you describe yourself as an amateur, but you are an expert at composition. Your words and sentences just flow and you are always successful at making your point. This is something to be very proud of.

Bev
 

Mary Bull

New member
Bev Sampson said:
Being a serious hobbiest/amateur, I can understand the feeling of insecurity when posting in a forum like this one that is host to so many experts. But that's what I love about this forum and why I am here, because it affords me an opportunity to learn and to receive criticism.
Bev, you have great skills, and the technical ability and vocabulary to talk with the best of the pros and implement their advice. Well evidenced in the "skin tones" thread.
However, Mary, you describe yourself as an amateur, but you are an expert at composition. Your words and sentences just flow and you are always successful at making your point. This is something to be very proud of.
I do try to exercise a little restraint and not just dash something off, which my impulsive nature makes me want to do. And still a frustrating amount of typos does get by me. I don't like them to be there, getting in the way of whoever's reading me.

But I am very much an amateur at shooting pictures, and a near-novice with my G2.
The help I've been receiving here is more valuable to me than words can say. It is making my days so happy.

Mary
 
Asher Kelman said:
Sean,

I know you are correct, but the word stupid, is maybe not the word to use.

I too wish I had a better word. My intent was not attack, but affirmation of the cliche "there are no stupid questions". A question may be asked in ignorance or confusion, but that is not stupid. It is the exact opposite.

And even then, in a secret forum one may simply be accessing a comfort zone to allow one to ask such questions. Perhaps this social escape creates that comfort zone for some. I am aware that at times attacks occur on questioners in public forums. And at times the attackers mark themselves more than the questioner by their actions.

I am also aware there are social and emotional issues that may affect one's comfort zones. What does concern me is the climate of fear and that I do not understand. I am aware of it, but I do not emotionally connnect with it any longer on technical or artistic issues. But every individual's emotional development is unique and we all have our own path to forge.

Asher Kelman said:
If you wish to reference a rational professor able to teach in a university, yes, you might be correct.

I actually learned this trait from a mentor in a professional environment (massively parallel fault tolerant software engineering) and would often get my streams of thought cut off to allow time for comprehension or rebuttal of my logic (a completely objective subject was the context). In other terms, I learned this in the context of collaboration. But it is a trait that is also of value in emotional contexts.
Asher Kelman said:
By contrast, that strict ruler would be of no use to measure behavior of an artist who know by experience, does great work and does not have any of the teaching skills you admire.

Again, I wish I had a better word. But it is not the teaching skills, but the communication that I admire. One photographic epiphany was given to me by my four year old cousin while drawing her a simple image of her little doll. I drew a straight on perspective image on a flat sheet of paper. I was told I had it wrong. She then pointed to the doll and showed me it had ears and that they were a part of her vision of what should be in the image.

Talking this over with someone with art historical training I was told this blending of perspectives could be termed cubism and it is something I have long been mulling over using as a photo-illustrative technique. But I have yet to achieve the emotional center on the concept to translate it into a realized vision.

But, it was the simple question of why to a statement of it is wrong that brought this to me. I knew the image was right and matched what I saw, but another with no training but intuition showed me a new way to see.

Asher Kelman said:
So, for example, one could have a great painter, who knew nothing about rules of perspective, but painted that way since that's what he saw and felt.

He could be socially uncomfotable in a forum with academics. I feel we might be sensitve to that!
I agree. And, at times I fail. Sometimes my intellect rides roughshod upon my emotional being. Othertimes it is the opposite. It is when I am struck on this latter and my emotions fuel the intellect that I am the most insensative to the thoughts and feelings of others as I am acting from a position of pain.

Asher Kelman said:
Well that is what I believe Stephen refers to. Ridicule is powerful. Preachers, priests, prostitutes, professors, people who play bridge, chess or who place armies in to challenge others power, all know how to act, put on airs, hide pain and then bluff through failures.

The other folks in the same position cannot hide angst so well and might thus be readily humiliated.

And this steps back to social rather than intellectual issues. There I am a poor role model as I just shrug off humiliation or ridicule as my ego there is rock solid and I have no fear of humiliation. If I am wrong, then someone has given me the gift of knowledge. And if they wrongly attack me I am given the chance to educate them or at least prevent them from misinforming others.

In the subject grey areas of technical work I often back down and let those who wish to give lead as I only have so much time and energy to give. The approach may not be my choice, but the grounding of ideas and direction in facts is often obtuse and convoluted in nature and I know I am still learning to teach the basics to others. On many things I am grounded and have a feeling* for them. But I have yet to learn to put them into words such that I can help others feel it out without wasting tens of thousands of hours on unrelated topics to their goals.

all the best,

Sean


* Math and science education are solely about feelings. One may look at the coursework and see facts and numbers, but that is not what a student is there to learn. They are there to learn how things behave and develop a feeling/intuition for it that allows them to work with and manipulate the ideas at a higher level. And it is these feelings for the behavior of the universe that lead to scientific discovery rather than cold dry facts.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Well now, there must be other reasons!

Are people reluctant to be bothered answering "dumb questions" by amateurs? Is that why some people retreat? Also are people with zero posts just intimidated.

Should we have special amateur sections so that amateurs would be free to ask very basic questions and working professionals and experienced photographers would not be slowed down?

Asher
 
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nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Asher Kelman said:
Should we have special amateur sections so that amaeteurs would be free to ask very basic questions and working professionals and experienced photographers would not be slowed down?
What a provocative question Asher!
Then why not a section for just women etc... ?
We at OPF, want to share and built a strong, friendly community for photography lovers.
Pros and amateurs.
There are no dumb questions
There are sometimes dumb answers
Let's face it with full respect for ALL of us.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher Kelman said:
Well now, there must be other reasons!

Are people reluctant to be bothered answering "dumb questions" by amateurs? Is that why some people retreat? Also are people with zero posts just intimidated.

Should we have special amateur sections so that amateurs would be free to ask very basic questions and working professionals and experienced photographers would not be slowed down?

Nicolas Claris said:
What a provocative question Asher!
Then why not a section for just women etc... ?
We at OPF, want to share and built a strong, friendly community for photography lovers.
Pros and amateurs.
There are no dumb questions
There are sometimes dumb answers
Let's face it with full respect for ALL of us.

MFFF Nicolas,

Please note the context of the "dumb question" was a quote. It in fact was quoted from what has been said to me! My response is to have a section where beginners would not be run over by all the high level discussions. They would be in an environment where they would feel less "in a fishbowl", being observed and become self-assured enough to ask questions and to post. According to feedback, we do inhibit some newbies.

At the same time, pros can focus on more advanced issues.

I know you look at this from a point of view of "egalité", (a French thing where the French believe they have a better understanding the Cowboy Americans :) ). However, we are not talking about political or moral worth here! We just need to get people comfortable!

There is no institution where 3 levels of basic math skills are covered along with several levels of advanced calculus in the same classroom!

I just think this is worth discussing. An introductory Photography and Photoshop forum, for example might be worth looking at. This would deal with things like ISO, aperture, focal length and other basic issues and similarly provide an opportunity for photoshop to be discussed securely on a basic level.

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
MFFBH Asher
Egalité has to be protected. It leaves in a dangerous world and we have to promote and care Egalité.

Though some times OPF may not look "FULL PRO", I don't care.
I do love when Ben Lifson does gives -yes, GIVES- opinions, advice or just talk to a newbie (as well as advanced amateur) in photography.
This is the MIRACLE of OPF!

If we close the "classrooms" we're not anymore open, whatever you may argue
Newbies, will easily and quickly see that all questions may be asked here and will always found an answer, good or bad.

I'm member of the same "secret forum" that orignal poster were banned from. Posted there once only.
I don't feel pro, I don't feel amateur, I feel photographer. And I feel well here.

I want to see Alain Briot as well as other gurus here provide their best advices to the "less advanced" guys, like Mary Bull, (yes Mary, from Asher point of views, ladies are also guys…).

I want "less advanced" people being able to post any questions, that sometimes I wonder: "wow, why didn't I think about this before?"

Even if I do have "strong" opinions, I'm an opened guy (I know you know), and I wish OPF lasts opened for long. This is IMHO our SOUL.
Save Our Soul!
This is what you did when some months ago you called me to set OPF. Let's keep our/your line, your vision, let's keep our home with all rooms without doors.
I hate doors unless they are sliding doors.

Egalité doesn't care about Egos, Egalité brings total respect Egos.

Let's keep equal here. Let's keep opened.

Just a Saturday morning, lying on the sofa with the powerbook on knees, trying to dream a bit.

Have all a beautifull week-end.
 

Mary Bull

New member
Asher, I would read in such a forum and maybe even ask some of my questions there.

I found this analogy of yours very apropós:
There is no institution where 3 levels of basic math skills are covered along with several levels of advanced calculus in the same classroom!
And, all the same, I would not feel inhibited from continuing to post in the other fora which interest me or offer threads where my own needs can be met, since I have managed to overcome my own "posting anxiety" pretty well by now.
(Okay, okay--perhaps that's the understatement of the year! < grin > )

Once new members who are beginners did start to feel comfortable in the basic classroom, they might start branching out, just as I did. In my case, from PM exchanges with you, to Introduce Yourself to threads in the Layback Cafe.

Or there would be nothing to prevent the comfortable beginner from plunging in among the experts--just as I did in a number of places, after I did become reasonably comfortable.

So it would not be a restrictive forum, this beginner's place you envision, but an entry way, where a beginner could feel less inhibited from posting.

Mary
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Nicolas,

How can I say it any better than Mary has!

My idea is not to have a room we lock the beginner in! Far from it, its a place on investment that we all will contribute to, but where we will be especially careful in relating to people, knowing they are just starting off!

So, to understand my point of view, start from Mary's letter and then read this, get some Bergundy wine, relax, reread Mary's note, more wine, back to this, get a new bottle of wine and when the two posts are merged into one, voila, you will be persuaded.


Asher
 

Ray West

New member
no

In all honesty, I think we need less rooms, not more.

wrt beginners, it is nothing like that, imnsho. It is more a personality/culture thing that applies in general, whether a beginner or the most experienced. Maybe we need to consider slicing the cake in some other way? In other words, I do not think its the fact that folk are beginners to photography that keeps them from 'joining in', but it may be the fact that they may not want risking a full frontal attack on the quality of what they thought was merely an interesting snap shot. Not everybody has the time or inclination to make every photo into an award winning or money earning image.

I think it may start off , for example, sometimes, the greeting to new members, or at least the ones who 'introduce themselves', reminds me too much of something like 'the readers digest automatic but lets try and make it look personal' approach, although I know it is not that. (or a bit like the usa cafe thing of 'have a nice day'). So, if I post 'Hi, I'm new here,' expecting a reply like the others, and maybe I don't get one.....But different folk post for different reasons. and then, wot with all you folk of literitury backgrounds, and no in built spelling checker in this ere reply box, I've had to get out my dictionary, a book thing, but that still don't get good enough english, like what you folk may wish for. I mean, some of it seems to go on and on about nothing at all. Personally, I don't want to be told how to speak my mother's language by a bunch of foreigners ;-) ;-) ;-)

I spend too much time here, playing at devil's advocate, but helping in the specific areas that I think I can. I'm pretty thick skinned, but, sometimes things I say get missed, and then gets repeated, usually using longer words, by someone else more known, who then sort of 'gains the glory'. It's no big deal to me, but it gets irritating, sort of snobbery or whatever. But then, in turn, I often post without reading all the thread (sometimes 'cos I miss there is a whole page 2), so I guess in turn it miffs a few others.

Two rules I try to apply, here and elsewhere.

1) The message is more important than the messenger. Nobody is infallible, and if you have read my previous post, and gone to the link, you will realise the obverse. Most of what is said here, you can often test for yourself, prove the answer, so to speak. It can be 'dangerous' to blindly follow someone's advice, in particular in an open forum situation. There are always axes that need grinding.
2) once I've said something, it is no longer mine. By that, if I think my meaning has been misunderstood, I will try and rephrase, but it should not be a problem to me if others think differently. It is quite possible to have unity with diversity.

Most spats/arguments/ start over nothing at all, pressing the send button maybe too soon, even poor punctuation, things being said differently in your part of the world, etc. Most folk, in general want to be encouraging, unless you are perceived as some sort of threat, but maybe without all the visual clues of face to face discussion, it is difficult to assess how to help, and the suggestions made are not always the ones wanted. However, stick with it, grow though it, I think that the motive here is to improve our photography.

Finally, I think we should celebrate, a photog. forum which welcomes pet pictures, and furthermore even allows lengthy personal views on a neghbour's dead cat, such that folk half a world away feel they could add something, _share some feelings_ but won't, since that may upset other's sensibilities - that is possibly what this is really about. Stuff the cameras.

Best wishes,

Ray (I don't care what you call me, provided you don't call me late for dinner)
 

Mary Bull

New member
Quoting Ray:
Ray (I don't care what you call me, provided you don't call me late for dinner)
It's on the table, this minute, so git yo'se'f in hyar, pronto, and Ah don't mean maybe!

Ray, all that you have said is so true and cogent.

I don't think it will hurt a bit--with so many fora already, and each, I think, meeting a need--to have one more. "Beginner's corner--but be sure to post in the other fora, too" would be among my preferred titles for it.

But in the end, if I may try to put into words the feeling you give me with these comments--which is quite a warm and fuzzy one, BTW--it's not about *which* or *how many* subdividing fora we have. It's about what we do within them, and how determined we are to work through the limitations of posting in text in public.

People yes, cameras bedammed! :)

Mary
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Mary Bull said:
Asher, I would read in such a forum and maybe even ask some of my questions there............

So it would not be a restrictive forum, this beginner's place you envision, but an entry way, where a beginner could feel less inhibited from posting.

Mary

This is said with clarity. It is still perfectly open!

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Sorry Asher
I had a lot of Bordeaux yesterday, not Burgundy, and this is maybe why I won't follow you.
Please reread my post in maybe bad English and try to understand me.

I think we've tried to set up OPF as an initiative for open discussions and exchanges about photography(ies).
I still don't see the need for separated rooms depending of the "level" of photographers.
I would repeat: then why not one for women etc.
Our differences including the level and skills one are the magic of OPF. The magic is that it works!
Mary will not convince me that when she wants to post somewhere, she won't.
Because she did.
She did because we have no uniforms.

AFAIK, when creating OPF, we didn't have the idea to create a kind of Academy.
I do hate dogmatisms
I have no truth to spread but ideas to share.
I wish Mary, you, Ben Lifson, Alain Briot, Don Lashier, Ray West, Rainer, Dierk, all others in the same open and large office room (the one with half height walls so when you stand-up you see 360°).

I wish to share and possibly help others, I dont want to go to school.
Nor as a teacher neither as a pupil.

I wouldn't spend that much time on such closedphotographyforums…

Walls are hiding the reality. Open and hidden are kind of contradiction.
No wall for me please.

[Largely edited because of failure of battery)

Asher Kelman said:
Nicolas,

How can I say it any better than Mary has!

My idea is not to have a room we lock the beginner in! Far from it, its a place on investment that we all will contribute to, but where we will be especially careful in relating to people, knowing they are just starting off!

So, to understand my point of view, start from Mary's letter and then read this, get some Bergundy wine, relax, reread Mary's note, more wine, back to this, get a new bottle of wine and when the two posts are merged into one, voila, you will be persuaded.


Asher
 
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Mary Bull

New member
A bit more of my friendly dissent:

Nicolas Claris said:
I think we've tried to set up OPF as an initiative for open discussions and exchanges about photography(ies).
I still don't see the need for separated rooms depending of the "level" of photographers.
I would repeat: then why not one for blacks, one for women etc.
Our differences including the level and skills one are the magic of OPF. The magic is that it works
Well, but then, Nicolas, why have any rooms at all? Why not only threads?

The rooms are useful because they're like a table of contents, or even--at the thread level--like an index. The interests of the set of photographers at OPF are both wide and deep--and, yes, I would say, high. Three-dimensional.

Maybe I am one-of-a-kind, and there is no one lurking--only reading, never posting--who came here with such a dearth of basic skills and such a lack of vocabulary with which to discuss those skills as I did.

A forum which clearly identified me, every time I posted, as a beginner would have lessened some of the private misery I felt when I first arrived at this huge cocktail party that seemed to be populated mostly by close friends who were also experts.

I can't count the number of PMs I had from Asher--although I saved every last one to my hard drive--saying I had posted in the wrong forum for my best chance at getting answers or help, or that my comments were OT and he was starting another thread for them, or the number of public reminders I had about trimming what I quoted to keep the thread lean and easy to read--and those not just from Asher!

I would have felt far less like I was making a mess and getting in everyone's way if I could have spilled all the milk and ink and strewn all the crumbs in one room for a couple of weeks, until I got my feet under me and a handle on what was needed to participate to my own best advantage.

So, if it's only me, there's no need for a Beginner's Corner. Because I have mostly learned what to do by now.
Mary will not convince me that when she wants to post somewhere, she won't.
Because she did.
She did because we have no uniforms.
No, I did despite the fact there were no uniforms. I can't remember how many nights that first week or two that I went to sleep with a firm resolve never to post here again. Several times I even considered leaving. What kept me from doing that was my lifetime of living by the principle of not being a quitter.

I did try to stay objective about my public face here--never to write when in a "down" mood for instance.

It is not easy to join OPF knowing only one person there, and not even having told that one person that you planned to sign up before actually doing that.

Far scarier than just moving into a new town.
AFAIK, when creating OPF, we didn't have the idea to create a kind of Academy.
I do hate dogmatisms
I have no truth to spread but ideas to share.
It's not about dogmatisms or "Truth" with a capital T. It's about vocabulary and experience from which the newcomer at OPF who is also possessed only of beginner-level skills and vocabulary in photography--how that kind of person can be made most comfortable and made to feel most welcome for the first few days of being a new member.
I wish Mary, you, Ben Lifson, Alain Briot, Don Lashier, Ray West, Rainer, Dierk, all others in the same open and large office room (the one with half height walls so when you stand-up you see 360°).
Sure. It doesn't have to be a room. It can be a corner.

A corner with quarter-height walls, so one can see over them sitting down. And with closed-circuit TVs that show what's going on in all the other rooms. And a wide, unobstructed opening into a corridor leading to the other fora and those little footprints color-coded on the floor to show the way--like in some big office buildings or hospital complexes.
I wish to share and possibly help others, I dont want to go to school.
Nor as a teacher neither as a pupil.

I wouldn't spend that much time on such closedphotographyforums…

Walls are hiding the reality. Open and hidden are kind of contradiction.
No wall for me please.
I know. We're not talking about walls. We''re talking about a safe spot for the new kitten that's just strayed in. Where there's always a senior member paying attention, ready to give immediate reassurance and help.

But, as I said to Ray in another post, the problem of making a newcomer who has only beginning-level photography skills and vocabulary feel comfortable and welcomed--this problem doesn't have to be solved with a new forum.

It *could* be solved by more immediate and continuing attention, if the beginner has the courage to clearly identify his status and keep on identifying it in whatever forum he posts. But I think everyone will not do that. So, how can the fellow members recognize and meet the need--especially since it's easy for such a new member-beginner to get in the way by choosing the wrong forum or thread to post in.

It's not really a momentous matter. Things can go on just as they are now and eventually all the human relationships will sort themselves out.

I just thought, with Asher, that there could be a more streamlined way to accomplish it.

That's all, Nicolas. < she said affectionately >

Mary
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Mary
thanks for your effort trying to convince me!

Let me comment some of your arguments:

The rooms are useful because they're like a table of contents, or even--at the thread level--like an index. The interests of the set of photographers at OPF are both wide and deep--and, yes, I would say, high. Three-dimensional.

Fora and threads are more than ok with me because as you say they are like a summary.
Fine.

The things change when the selection, in another words the differenciation, is made about PEOPLE skills or photography level.

This is completely different. It reminds me bad (very) old times. And yes, community fora are somewhat the reflection of our society, of our social relationships. I want to be in the same bus as everybody. Richness comes from this.

I can't count the number of PMs I had from Asher--although I saved every last one to my hard drive--saying I had posted in the wrong forum for my best chance at getting answers or help, or that my comments were OT and he was starting another thread for them, or the number of public reminders I had about trimming what I quoted to keep the thread lean and easy to read--and those not just from Asher!

But this is not relevant to your degree in photography, but in your degree of knowledge about posting in fora!
Creating a room (or whatever we call it) for photography beginners will not change this. This point is out of matter!

I can't remember how many nights that first week or two that I went to sleep with a firm resolve never to post here again. Several times I even considered leaving. What kept me from doing that was my lifetime of living by the principle of not being a quitter.

What do you think I felt when some years ago I did post on RG forum to ask advices about switching from N to C?
Exactly same as you. And we both are here today with our different experience and culture. So what's the matter?
In a way it did force you (as it did for me) to think before posting. Not that bad after all, IMHO.

It's not about dogmatisms or "Truth" with a capital T. It's about vocabulary and experience from which the newcomer at OPF who is also possessed only of beginner-level skills and vocabulary in photography--how that kind of person can be made most comfortable and made to feel most welcome for the first few days of being a new member.

Quite the same comments as above. What about for members for whom English isn't their mother tongue?

Sure. It doesn't have to be a room. It can be a corner.

You mean a getto? (remember we're talking people, not matters), I bet none of the pros (or supposed to be, maybe the retired ones?) will stand by there… we'll loose our "connectivity"

Things can go on just as they are now and eventually all the human relationships will sort themselves out.
YES!



That's all for now, Mary < he said with love >
 

Mary Bull

New member
Love and Bear Hugs

Mary said:
Things can go on just as they are now and eventually all the human relationships will sort themselves out.
Then Nicolas said:
Okay, suits me. < big smile >

To your comments on my initial misery in a new forum: Of course, right on target--no pain, no gain?

I just thought, for the future, there might be a way for there to be a little less pain with just as much gain. <grin >
That's all for now, Mary < he said with love >
And all for me, too, for now, Nicolas.
< she would have said with a bear hug, but is mindful that Nicolas doesn't like bears >

Mary
 

Ray West

New member
Mary, bears, hugs.... images spring to mind

dare I say, a 'schoolboy alliteration' on an old English Nursery rhyme, probably referring to Mary (Queen of Scots) 'Mary had a little lamb, Its fleece as white as snow. Everywhere that Mary went, The lamb was sure to go' But, the seven year old, 20th century, massed playground chanting version - 'Mary had a little bear, She treated it so kind. Everywhere that Mary went, She had a bear behind'. And then there was Chaucer...

Best wishes,

Ray
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
< she would have said with a bear hug, but is mindful that Nicolas doesn't like bears >
But I love bears, specially polar ones!
Though I also love seals (it happened to Marine (my wife) and I to drive 2000 miles in a week-end to see one in Scotland!) there is a lot of pain in nature to (bears love seals, but in a different way than us)…
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I'll not deal with the thread right now. However, please do nor refer to racial or ethnic groups or people with functional challenges, by common epithets as this can be especially hurtful.

I have deleted two instances! Just as we don't want to refer to newbies and put them in a locked room (and no one suggested that) we perhaps might not refer to other more sensitive groups.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I think perhaps a room for "Photography Entry Questions". It does not define people, just the issues.

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Asher Kelman said:
I think perhaps a room for "Photography Entry Questions". It does not define people, just the issues.

Asher
Well
that's another entry that doensn't hurt me as it refers to photography, not people.
Why not try it and we'll see if it is sucessful (i mean if ther are questions and answers).

Bravo Asher, good synthesis of the discussion!
 
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