doug anderson
New member
surreptitious shooting on subway
D300, 17-35, 1600 ISO
My guess is that they're moving toward the first kiss...
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Subway love, private thought and friends.
- Thread starter doug anderson
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surreptitious shooting on subway
D300, 17-35, 1600 ISO
My guess is that they're moving toward the first kiss...
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug,
I like the two of them. What an adorable couple!
Thanks for your permission to try a B&W version. I do love the part of the color in the couple that attracts attention, her hair especially, but thought B&W would be interesting as the other colors from the train might be be less distracting.
© Doug Anderson 2008
I've vignetted somewhat the lower sides and lightened the couple. No sharpening.
Asher
I like the two of them. What an adorable couple!
Thanks for your permission to try a B&W version. I do love the part of the color in the couple that attracts attention, her hair especially, but thought B&W would be interesting as the other colors from the train might be be less distracting.
© Doug Anderson 2008
I've vignetted somewhat the lower sides and lightened the couple. No sharpening.
Asher
Nill Toulme
New member
I am not a student of street photography, although there are many examples of it that I admire. For some reason, however, this particular image immediately caused me to wonder where is the line between "street photography," on the one hand, and mere voyeurism/invasion of privacy on the other?
Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The Morality of Taking Pictures of People without Consent!
Nill,
Being attuned to the sensibilities and feelings of parents and participants in sports, one has built into ones frames of reference and license a great respect for the wishes of others. Yes, you, Nill, are a hunter, but you have in a way, a mantle of permission, willingness and consent wherever you take pictures of kids in a sports event.
Take that same lens and reach to kids with their parents on a picnic blanket, you know in your heart that you are invading privacy, even if legally permitted.
So we have a dilemma. I personally deal with this by asking permission when a child's identity will be recorded or when parents notice what I'm doing. Getting permission from parents is so much of a right thing to do as otherwise one can cause great fear and that's really not decent.
Other people? I just try to be pleasant and not get caught! If anyone objects and is nice about it, I explain and if they are still pleasant and don't want pictures, I'd delete them.
most of the time I'm surreptitious.
This particular picture of this couple is adorable. I'd have shown them the picture and said, "This is what I took. If you like, I'll send it to you at no charge." and hand them my card. Likely they'd pose for several more!
There are 3 rules I remember:
WAR: There is no war without aggression!
WHORE: One cannot be a whore and stay completely dressed and/or inviolate!
PHOTOGRAPHY: One cannot be a street photographer and not invade the personal space of others!
Unless one is prepared to use the camera to go where manners would not allow, don't be street photographer! Why? Can't one be a considerate street photographer? IMHO, before long, we break most of the rules of respect and privacy we'd like for ourselves. So, in the end, I believe one should have a "red line" that is not crossed! We shouldn't make or save pictures that demean or hurt others. How we we tell the difference? Start with children and get permission! We also should not grant to ourselves a free pass because we are serving some higher purpose, "making art". That's an arrogant disease that can consume us as we forget other people's humanity.
Having said that, Nill, I really appreciate Doug's tender picture. Although exploiting someone's personal moments, it celebrates the best in us. I have no doubt that this particular couple would really appreciate copies.
Now Doug, did you let them know about the pics and do they have copies?
Asher
Nill,
Being attuned to the sensibilities and feelings of parents and participants in sports, one has built into ones frames of reference and license a great respect for the wishes of others. Yes, you, Nill, are a hunter, but you have in a way, a mantle of permission, willingness and consent wherever you take pictures of kids in a sports event.
Take that same lens and reach to kids with their parents on a picnic blanket, you know in your heart that you are invading privacy, even if legally permitted.
So we have a dilemma. I personally deal with this by asking permission when a child's identity will be recorded or when parents notice what I'm doing. Getting permission from parents is so much of a right thing to do as otherwise one can cause great fear and that's really not decent.
Other people? I just try to be pleasant and not get caught! If anyone objects and is nice about it, I explain and if they are still pleasant and don't want pictures, I'd delete them.
most of the time I'm surreptitious.
This particular picture of this couple is adorable. I'd have shown them the picture and said, "This is what I took. If you like, I'll send it to you at no charge." and hand them my card. Likely they'd pose for several more!
There are 3 rules I remember:
WAR: There is no war without aggression!
WHORE: One cannot be a whore and stay completely dressed and/or inviolate!
PHOTOGRAPHY: One cannot be a street photographer and not invade the personal space of others!
Unless one is prepared to use the camera to go where manners would not allow, don't be street photographer! Why? Can't one be a considerate street photographer? IMHO, before long, we break most of the rules of respect and privacy we'd like for ourselves. So, in the end, I believe one should have a "red line" that is not crossed! We shouldn't make or save pictures that demean or hurt others. How we we tell the difference? Start with children and get permission! We also should not grant to ourselves a free pass because we are serving some higher purpose, "making art". That's an arrogant disease that can consume us as we forget other people's humanity.
Having said that, Nill, I really appreciate Doug's tender picture. Although exploiting someone's personal moments, it celebrates the best in us. I have no doubt that this particular couple would really appreciate copies.
Now Doug, did you let them know about the pics and do they have copies?
Asher
Last edited:
Nill Toulme
New member
doug anderson
New member
On privacy: I have a benevolent view of people when looking through the lens and represent them in a celebratory manner. Cartier-Bresson is my master here. He could not have created his oeuvre without invading people's privacy. Most of the invasion-of-privacy issues come up around surveillance, or people who are exploitive, e.g.; paparazzi. I don't think this photograph reeks of exploitation, and this couple very well mat have been delighted to see it themselves thus represented.
I have no interest in photographing famous people, and prefer ordinary people, who, because of their lack of pretension or well-crafted public persona, are capable of visual poetry in their daily lives.
I think there's a certain amount of hysteria and self-righteous posturing about this kind of thing born of a culture of exploitation vis. orthodox political correctness, neither of which world views I subscribe.
Cheers,
Doug
I have no interest in photographing famous people, and prefer ordinary people, who, because of their lack of pretension or well-crafted public persona, are capable of visual poetry in their daily lives.
I think there's a certain amount of hysteria and self-righteous posturing about this kind of thing born of a culture of exploitation vis. orthodox political correctness, neither of which world views I subscribe.
Cheers,
Doug
Nill Toulme
New member
As for the image itself, I think it might benefit from a tighter crop, perhaps emphasizing a bit more the happy coincidence of the "Very Real Power" and "Priority Seating" legends. To be perfectly honest, as it is the moment and expressions are OK, but nothing very special, and otherwise to my (non-street-photog) eye it looks like any one of hundreds of surreptitious shot-without-framing public transit spy photos. That's really what prompted my initial puzzlement over it. If it were a stronger image, that would have probably outweighed my initial ?? reaction to it.
But Asher likes it, and he has a much better eye than do I. So carry on. ;-)
Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
But Asher likes it, and he has a much better eye than do I. So carry on. ;-)
Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Kathy Rappaport
pro member
I love street shooting too. A couple years ago I took a class from Sarah Meghan Lee. a photojournalist for the LA Times and formerly AP. Anyway, we learned about respecting the subjects, requesting permission or if we did shoot before asking then we were required to advise the subjects. It gave us the ability to talk to strangers, but we also had many discussions about theft of peoples personas by shooting without their knowledge. In my travels, I found several cultures who really did not approve of us shooting and many times have run into hats over faces, faces bent away and hidden. Out of respect to the person and to fellow photographers who would not want to lose the right/ability to street shoot, we must always present a fair and humble presence with our lenses and visions.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Kathy,
I feel your presence like we were smoking at the back of the gymnasium and you're the teacher that busted us! However, I don't smoke! Still, you do come with authority based in sincere values. I must admit to being far more impulsive than you are and would grab any shot I had the opportunity to get, partly for the thrill of getting that image right. Still, I don't want to hurt anyone in the process.
You, however, are a better insurance risk! No one is ever likely to bop you one for pointing an unwanted lens towards them! But that's you and your courteous nature.
In fashion, one creates imaginary scenes of peoples exotic moments. Street photography seems to reach into the everyday to find archetypes to represent some aspect of what we really are.
I personally think that street photography, whatever that is, requires reaching across boundaries to image what happens without perturbing the waters by introducing oneself!
It is not a high minded pursuit but it's a valued way at looking at our societies at a particular time and across time. Anyone who thinks it can be achieved without trespassing on the privacy of others is kidding themselves. I'd rather accept that and try to balance by sinful nature by doing some unwarranted act of kindness on the way.
Asher
I feel your presence like we were smoking at the back of the gymnasium and you're the teacher that busted us! However, I don't smoke! Still, you do come with authority based in sincere values. I must admit to being far more impulsive than you are and would grab any shot I had the opportunity to get, partly for the thrill of getting that image right. Still, I don't want to hurt anyone in the process.
You, however, are a better insurance risk! No one is ever likely to bop you one for pointing an unwanted lens towards them! But that's you and your courteous nature.
In fashion, one creates imaginary scenes of peoples exotic moments. Street photography seems to reach into the everyday to find archetypes to represent some aspect of what we really are.
I personally think that street photography, whatever that is, requires reaching across boundaries to image what happens without perturbing the waters by introducing oneself!
It is not a high minded pursuit but it's a valued way at looking at our societies at a particular time and across time. Anyone who thinks it can be achieved without trespassing on the privacy of others is kidding themselves. I'd rather accept that and try to balance by sinful nature by doing some unwarranted act of kindness on the way.
Asher
doug anderson
New member
Kathy: the problem with asking people if you can take their picture is that it makes them self conscious, and the moment it lost.
Mike Shimwell
New member
Kathy made the point that if she shot first then she advised afterwards. Asher has made the point that , if asked, he deletes images, although he doesn't feel the need to ask permission either before or after.
I certainly haven't always advised after the event.
Given that our legal system continues (though even this seems to be under practical if not legal threat) to allow photography in public spaces there is clearly an understanding that what is public is actually public - i.e. there is no right to privacy and you can be photographed (so don't do anything you would be embarrased to have photographed - unless you are a celebrity seeking attention of course). However, in my view, it is imcumbent on us a human beings to have some concern for others feelings and values. I think Asher makes a good point
Street shooting is not high minded, that would be a vanity that leads to any thing being justified for 'my art'. But, it can be a valuable and interesting way of recording something of the everyday about our societies and culture. Over time this can have historic significance as well as creating interest and interesting images in the immediate. Family snapshots have much the same value, and anyone who has looked through boxes of old slides or prints will be aware of the poignancy and stories that can be seen there. Perhaps the style of shooting used also tells us much about the time - Frank Meadow Sutcliffe was no street shooter, I suspect, but there is much in his work that speaks of his era and the cultural milieu in which he worked. Surrepticious shooting from the waist etc speaks much of our time and attitude (be it necessity to stay alive or fear of being observed for whatever reason).
So how does this all work out. For me
- I shoot some work on the 'street' - in part as a discipline to keep my built in PJ tendency confident at working in public and to make the point that it remains a legal pursuit. I really do believe that when public photography is banned it represents a real loss of freedom and voice for the populace at large, in any country, as documentary photojournalism can be a powerful force for good (see the digital journalist for example).
- I usually frame with the camera to my eye. That at least is obvious. But, I occasionally shoot from the hip.
- I have an attitude that is open to talk about what I'm doing, but don't tend to push it in people's faces.
- I carry quirky bits of kit (old russian viewfinders for example) that people come and talk about
- When I'm shooting I look for things that actually speak something to me. I have too many files such as Nil described already
- I tend not to shoot drunk people, homeless people, children or barely clad women - unless I know them/their parents or they just happen to be included in a frmaing that focuses on something else.
Just my 2 pennies.
Best,
Mike
Mike Shimwell
New member
Oh, I liked 'the Stride' by the way.
Mike
Mike
Cedric MASSOULIER
New member
Hi,
As a matter of fact, this is a very old and recurring debate... Should we ask people before to shoot them ? Is street photography compatible with respect and politeness ?
In my personnal case, i had many discussions about that, with friends or family. Many people don't understand we shoot people in the street without their consent.
For me, street photography is an art which aims to be intrusive, to capture decisive moments. Today, with recent french laws, photographs by Cartier-Bresson or Doisneau (who is a bit apart, because has often used professional models or comedians) would be illegal... It is a point to consider : asking people if they want to be shot and systematically respecting privacy and intimacy would have killed a large part of existing masterpieces of photography.
But it's true that times have changed, and people of today have another relationship with images. Photojournalists, paparazzi, people press, mass medias, real-time TV, etc, have changed our perception of photographs. And i think that photographers must consider this and adapt themselves.
Now, i try to apply my own system :
- i never hide myself ; i try to keep visible, among people in the streets, to not shoot them by surprise.
- when i see remarkable people i want to portrait, i try to talk to them and to introduce myself. I recently did it with truckers on strike, and photographs were quite good and sincere (i will present them here).
But there are still many photographs i shoot without any consent : when it is street action, when the scene is fast, when an event occurs only during few seconds... no time for thinking : point and shoot ! And people are often gone after the shot...
By the way, i think the most important thing is tacit consent : no hide, visible shoot, and you will see that common reaction will be a light smile and a kind a complicity. For instance, yesterday i shot a young girl, 7 or 8 years-old, who was running along a pool in Paris. Her father saw me, i was just in front of them and i didn't hide myself. He was a bit surprised, but i smiled and i said "hello" showing my camera : he relaxed himself, smiled and said "hello". I could have asked him to make more shots with his daughter, he would have accepted it.
As a matter of fact, this is a very old and recurring debate... Should we ask people before to shoot them ? Is street photography compatible with respect and politeness ?
In my personnal case, i had many discussions about that, with friends or family. Many people don't understand we shoot people in the street without their consent.
For me, street photography is an art which aims to be intrusive, to capture decisive moments. Today, with recent french laws, photographs by Cartier-Bresson or Doisneau (who is a bit apart, because has often used professional models or comedians) would be illegal... It is a point to consider : asking people if they want to be shot and systematically respecting privacy and intimacy would have killed a large part of existing masterpieces of photography.
But it's true that times have changed, and people of today have another relationship with images. Photojournalists, paparazzi, people press, mass medias, real-time TV, etc, have changed our perception of photographs. And i think that photographers must consider this and adapt themselves.
Now, i try to apply my own system :
- i never hide myself ; i try to keep visible, among people in the streets, to not shoot them by surprise.
- when i see remarkable people i want to portrait, i try to talk to them and to introduce myself. I recently did it with truckers on strike, and photographs were quite good and sincere (i will present them here).
But there are still many photographs i shoot without any consent : when it is street action, when the scene is fast, when an event occurs only during few seconds... no time for thinking : point and shoot ! And people are often gone after the shot...
By the way, i think the most important thing is tacit consent : no hide, visible shoot, and you will see that common reaction will be a light smile and a kind a complicity. For instance, yesterday i shot a young girl, 7 or 8 years-old, who was running along a pool in Paris. Her father saw me, i was just in front of them and i didn't hide myself. He was a bit surprised, but i smiled and i said "hello" showing my camera : he relaxed himself, smiled and said "hello". I could have asked him to make more shots with his daughter, he would have accepted it.
Mike Shimwell
New member
Cedric
I think your understanding of tacit consent and complicity, together with 'nothing hidden' are helpful in this discussion.
I had overlooked the current french legal situation - perhaps that is the new european model, in which case the italiens will ignore, you will be above the ridiculous rules, and we will assiduously enforce at great expense and to the detriment of individual freedom...
Mike
I think your understanding of tacit consent and complicity, together with 'nothing hidden' are helpful in this discussion.
I had overlooked the current french legal situation - perhaps that is the new european model, in which case the italiens will ignore, you will be above the ridiculous rules, and we will assiduously enforce at great expense and to the detriment of individual freedom...
Mike
doug anderson
New member
....you will see that common reaction will be a light smile and a kind a complicity
I mostly have this kind of experience when I'm street shooting, but there is the occasional killjoy, who often seems to have a personal ax to grind.
I mostly have this kind of experience when I'm street shooting, but there is the occasional killjoy, who often seems to have a personal ax to grind.
Cedric MASSOULIER
New member
Yeah, it's true... It depends also of where you shoot : i never had a problem in city centre, in middle or big cities like Paris, but i stopped to shoot in my own town, which is a small one very close to Paris, because i had regular problems with angry people or municipality cops... even when i was respecting very restrictive french law. State of mind is often very different in small places, you have to approach people and to know them.
doug anderson
New member
Cedric: I heard a story from a photographer who attempted to photograph some books a man was selling at a Kiosk in Paris. The man punched him for photographing his books.
I'm wondering what the threat could possibly have been? Sounds like mental illness to me.
Kathy Rappaport
pro member
Not always
Asher,
No not busted...I do that sometimes where I cannot ask and I cannot even speak the language. But I do try most of the time. I have a ton of images to work on - all street photography to share - from a trip I just returned from. Most of which I could not speak the language and therefore could not ask permission. Some shot on the subway as well.
Asher,
No not busted...I do that sometimes where I cannot ask and I cannot even speak the language. But I do try most of the time. I have a ton of images to work on - all street photography to share - from a trip I just returned from. Most of which I could not speak the language and therefore could not ask permission. Some shot on the subway as well.
Doug Kerr
Well-known member
Hi, Asher,
Well, I am never completely dressed, not having a top hat.
Best regards,
Doug
Well, I am never completely dressed, not having a top hat.
Best regards,
Doug
doug anderson
New member
doug anderson
New member
another subway shot
Shot this one with camera resting on my knee and was lucky enough to get a tight focus. She's contemplative, inside herself, and quite lovely I think.
Shot this one with camera resting on my knee and was lucky enough to get a tight focus. She's contemplative, inside herself, and quite lovely I think.
doug anderson
New member
Dog-in-a-Bag 1 & 2
There are many, many French Bulldogs in New York right now.
Dog-in-a-Bag 2
There are many, many French Bulldogs in New York right now.
Dog-in-a-Bag 2
doug anderson
New member
More Subway Love
Lexington Avenue Local.
Lexington Avenue Local.
doug anderson
New member
These two were so in love I'm surprised they were able to look out of the fourth wall of their erotic hallucination. They did not care who saw it.
doug anderson
New member
This little girl and her mother were great fun. For some reason, that subway car was full of happy, photography friendly people.
Technical: my auto white balance is not working in tungsten lighting. Guess I'll have to go manual.