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The cyclic scale of governance

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Often in science and mathematics we find that some scale we think of as "linear" actually turns out to be "cyclic", in one sense or another.

We find it in basic optical theory: if we move the sensor in a camera closer to the lens, the distance at which the object must be to be in focus moves further out in front, until essentially it is at "infinity". But if we move the lens just a teeny bit forward, the object point is now suddenly at "an infinite distance behind the camera". I'll leave this introductory metaphor without explaining what real significance that has, since talking about lenses is not really my point here.

We often use a scale of "to the right" and "to the left" (a metaphor borrowed from the layout of the Houses of Parliament) to describe many things, often confusing one with the another. And often a change in one property of, say, our government, "to the right" seems coupled with a change in another property "to the right". In my cynical times, I attribute this coupling to people who don't really have any thoughts about anything and only remember that their position is "to the right".

One might expect that I could have as well explained the concept by saying "to the left", except that it doesn't seem so often to work that way in that direction.

But again, I digress.

One "axis" of measurement is the degree to which a government is authoritarian (for which we can well read "dictatorial"). In the abstract, we generally think of a leaning "to the right" along that axis as being "more authoritarian". In fact, the pejorative adjective "fascist" is generally used with refernce to some real or hypothetical "far right" and "extremely authoritarian" government.

Now we move to the left, which in the "near field" seems to suggest not only governance that is more attuned to the welfare of all strata of society but to a "less authoritarian" government outlook. But there are paradoxes. The most salient is that the classical "liberal" (read, "left") orientation is for more government activity (which, of course doesn't necessarily mean a "more authoritarian" government, but could).

We find the paradox enlarged as we move even farther "to the left", where we arrive at the historical model of the Russian Revolution, and its bastard child, the Communist empire. There, we find (as, for example, under Stalin) perhaps the most authoritarian (in fact, dictatorial) regime of its size in modern times.

So the scale joins at its far ends - "all the way right" turns out to be in many ways the same as "all the way left" - just like the distance to the object point in a lens, or along the time line to the International Date Line..

Of course my real point in this is that so many people place such a premium on "following their direction to the limit". We see this in the present presidential campaign, in which the Republican candidates seem not to be trying to attract a majority of the American voters but rather to prepare to do well in an interview with the party wonks, in which they will be scored based on how close they are to the wonks' ideal of "to the right of Louis XIV". It was the best way to get nominated - and I hope not the best way to get elected.

So to the mindless "conservative" steering hard to the right, I issue this warning (I send it to them in their cars, by jamming an AM broadcast channel): "Keep at it. In a week or so, you'll be all the way to the left."
 

Nill Toulme

New member
From where you and I stand — to the left — the Right looks farther to the right than the Left does to the left. I wonder to what extent that's a matter of perspective though.

Personally, I believe both Left and Right — and therefore the "center" — have shifted to the right over the past forty years. But I also think (and hope) that ties in with your cyclic view, and that things are finally beginning to shift, on a turning-the-Titanic scale, back leftward somewhat.

But then again that might just be my perpective — from the left. ;-)

Nill
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Nill,

But I also think (and hope) that ties in with your cyclic view, and that things are finally beginning to shift, on a turning-the-Titanic scale, back leftward somewhat.

My hope is that the "shift" will be of a nature that takes us away from reliance on the badly-flawed "left-right" scale. It is the classical case in which a badly-conceived "index" itself serves to drive the universe being "calibrated".

I'm reminded of the time a "more experienced" person was introducing me to a piece of electronic equipment that had a classical round AC voltmeter on the cover, reading the supply voltage. It had the conventional "zero adjust" slotted-knob on the face, and a green line on the scale at 115 V, the nominal input voltage the unit was designed to operate from.

"Now", my mentor said, "the first thing when you start up each day is to turn on the amplifier and then, after it has settled in for a few minutes, adjust the AC voltage. Just turn that little screw-like thing on the meter until the pointer is on the green line."

Best regards,

Doug
 

doug anderson

New member
Doug: I've always thought it was a circle. For example, Stalin, who was a communist (left), and therefore logically opposed to Hitler, behaved so much like Hitler he might as well have been a fascist.

If you go far enough left, you will hit right, and visa versa.

Another thing: the Bush Administration, which is about as far right as you can go, is now proposing socializing the debt of the investment bank failures.

Left and right are words that become meaningless when applied to authoritarian regimes.

Cheers,

Doug
 
A British psychologist called Hans Eysenck researched and wrote about this issue back in the 1950/60 era. He measured political extremism and personality in the populace. Using personality measures that still have credence today, he found a similar structure between political extremists of the left and right persuasion, but a different structure in politically moderate people. His findings accord with the various posts in this thread.

Cheers
Mike
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
A British psychologist called Hans Eysenck researched and wrote about this issue back in the 1950/60 era. He measured political extremism and personality in the populace. Using personality measures that still have credence today, he found a similar structure between political extremists of the left and right persuasion, but a different structure in politically moderate people. His findings accord with the various posts in this thread.
Interesting - I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Try this link for Eysenck on extremity of political attitudes, Doug. [URL="http://jonjayray.tripod.com/eysatt.html"[/URL]
More recent work on the direction (rather than the extremity) of political attitudes within pairs of political and fraternal twins suggests a heavy contribution of genetics. So your bias toward conservatism or liberalism may have as little to do with judgment and free will as the color of your eyes.
Cheers
Mike
 

doug anderson

New member
Try this link for Eysenck on extremity of political attitudes, Doug. [URL="http://jonjayray.tripod.com/eysatt.html"[/URL]
More recent work on the direction (rather than the extremity) of political attitudes within pairs of political and fraternal twins suggests a heavy contribution of genetics. So your bias toward conservatism or liberalism may have as little to do with judgment and free will as the color of your eyes.
Cheers
Mike

Mike: I read the earlier piece on that site and found it interesting. But I am reflexively distrustful of any kind of genetic determinism.

D
 
Mike: I read the earlier piece on that site and found it interesting. But I am reflexively distrustful of any kind of genetic determinism.

D

Doug: I think the term is genetic "influence" rather than "determinism" when it comes to attitudes, personality, and behavior because that influence is well under 100%. (I was having fun and exaggerating with the 'eye color' analogy).

The distrust most people have about genetic influence probably arises because of our culture's enduring attachment to the 'free will' concept. We look up to, reward, applaud behavior that supports cultural ideals (e.g., courage, sacrifice) but look down on, punish, decry behavior in an opposite direction (e.g., cowardice, selfishness). Our institutions and laws are built on the premise that both such categories of behavior result from free will unless proved otherwise.

However, we readily identify environmental influences on behavior. The Head Start program had origins in observations that kids from the ghetto didn't do well at school. Jails are full of people from impoverished minorities, and so on. It's easier to accept such correlations when the influences are easy to observe. A problem about acceptance of the concept of genetic influence is that the correlations are less easy to observe.

But if we can accept that genes influence skin pigmentation, eye color, height, etc., surely they might also influence brain neurotransmitters that affect cognitions, attitudes, personality, mood, behavior, etc? After all, pharmacological treatment of mental disorder is based on the premise that such neurotransmitters affect mental state and behavior. Part of the answer is that our culture wants to believe that people are answerable for their actions - free will, again - unless we can categorize those people as 'abnormal' in some way. It's easier for the military to blame a stress-prone, shell-shocked soldier for cowardice than to acknowledge an inherited but outwardly invisible influence on dopamine metabolism. It's easier to blame a druggie or chronic gambler for weakness of will than to acknowledge the influence of neurotransmitter metabolism. I've used these examples because the inherited influences were identified years ago.

Twin research is a classic paradigm for helping to identify traits susceptible to genetic influence but by no means the only paradigm. (Go to Google Scholar; look up Andrew Weiss' 2008 article under the topic 'happiness' for recent findings on genetic influences on personality and happiness). When buttressed by other evidence (e.g., visibility of the trait in infancy; immutability despite life change), the picture that emerges about genetic influence on some psychological traits is compelling.

I think the notion that free will and genetic influence are mutually exclusive is too much of a simplification. Failure to acknowledge the latter often leads to intolerance and attribution of blame. Although we like to think that what we become is to our credit or discredit, what we are has an influence, too.

Cheers
Mike
 

doug anderson

New member
Mike: well articulated. My fear of genetic theory as regards behavior comes from my disgust with the racial theories of Hitler, and that book by those two idiots who claimed black people were not as smart as white people, etc.

Your explanation helps. A certain medical professional said to me recently that, "I used to believe that nurture was everything; but over time I've developed a healthy respect for nature."

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

Best,

Doug
 
A problem about acceptance of the concept of genetic influence is that the correlations are less easy to observe.

I don't quite follow. Either the correlation is strong, or it isn't. One could debate how strong is strong enough.

I think the notion that free will and genetic influence are mutually exclusive is too much of a simplification.

It's probably wrong, rather than a simplification. One could debate which is the stronger influence, and what "free will" actually means.

Bart
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Stones
A problem about acceptance of the concept of genetic influence is that the correlations are less easy to observe.


Bart replied: I don't quite follow. Either the correlation is strong, or it isn't. One could debate how strong is strong enough.

Hi Bart: I didn't put it well. What was meant is that one variable (e.g., behavior) but not the other (e.g., the biological manifestation of the gene) is readily observable; therefore, the strength of correlation is not apparent. Contrast this with the visible correlation between school success and poverty where you don't need a laboratory to measure either variable.

Doug: I share your disgust over the uses made of eugengic ideas in the last century. And regarding intelligence, a British Columbia researcher wrote a best-seller on the intelligence of dogs a decade ago that nicely parallels the black-white intelligence debate. He measured doggie IQ by performance in dog training/obedience/skill (whatever they call it) trials and ranked the various breeds.

At that time, we had a sheepdog and a husky from breeds that respectively ranked near the top and bottom of the doggie IQ continuum. The sheepdog was certainly more trainable. On the other hand.... When it came to feeding time and a particularly tasty meal, the husky often picked up the sheepdogs favorite toy, took it over to her and shook it. The sheepdog couldn't resist the temptation to play, and while she did so the husky would eat both dogs' dinners. Smart or what! When it comes to doggie intelligence - just like human intelligence - inferences depend on how you measure it.

Cheers
Mike
 

doug anderson

New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael_Stones
A problem about acceptance of the concept of genetic influence is that the correlations are less easy to observe.


Bart replied: I don't quite follow. Either the correlation is strong, or it isn't. One could debate how strong is strong enough.

Hi Bart: I didn't put it well. What was meant is that one variable (e.g., behavior) but not the other (e.g., the biological manifestation of the gene) is readily observable; therefore, the strength of correlation is not apparent. Contrast this with the visible correlation between school success and poverty where you don't need a laboratory to measure either variable.

Doug: I share your disgust over the uses made of eugengic ideas in the last century. And regarding intelligence, a British Columbia researcher wrote a best-seller on the intelligence of dogs a decade ago that nicely parallels the black-white intelligence debate. He measured doggie IQ by performance in dog training/obedience/skill (whatever they call it) trials and ranked the various breeds.

At that time, we had a sheepdog and a husky from breeds that respectively ranked near the top and bottom of the doggie IQ continuum. The sheepdog was certainly more trainable. On the other hand.... When it came to feeding time and a particularly tasty meal, the husky often picked up the sheepdogs favorite toy, took it over to her and shook it. The sheepdog couldn't resist the temptation to play, and while she did so the husky would eat both dogs' dinners. Smart or what! When it comes to doggie intelligence - just like human intelligence - inferences depend on how you measure it.

Cheers
Mike

Ain't it the truth. Somebody said (if you believe) W. Bush's IQ is 124.
 
What was meant is that one variable (e.g., behavior) but not the other (e.g., the biological manifestation of the gene) is readily observable; therefore, the strength of correlation is not apparent. Contrast this with the visible correlation between school success and poverty where you don't need a laboratory to measure either variable.


Okay, I now get what was meant. However, let's remain vigilant and careful as to what we're supposed to be measuring. Schoolsuccess e.g. does not equal intelligence!

Research on dogs also does not lend itself to generalizations that apply to other species. Dogs are specifically (in)bred for specific qualities/tasks/looks, which often results in underperformance in other qualities. Such inbreeding is extremely uncommon amongst human beings.

Bart
 

doug anderson

New member
Okay, I now get what was meant. However, let's remain vigilant and careful as to what we're supposed to be measuring. Schoolsuccess e.g. does not equal intelligence!

Research on dogs also does not lend itself to generalizations that apply to other species. Dogs are specifically (in)bred for specific qualities/tasks/looks, which often results in underperformance in other qualities. Such inbreeding is extremely uncommon amongst human beings.

Bart

You mean politicians aren't inbred?
 
However, let's remain vigilant and careful as to what we're supposed to be measuring. Schoolsuccess e.g. does not equal intelligence!

Bart


"School success ... does not equal intelligence!" That depends on the era Bart. The first widely used intelligence tests from which all subsequent IQ measures derived were meant to predict school success. Alfred Binet was contracted by educational authorities in Paris to develop a measure to discriminate those kids likely not to benefit from regular schooling. His 1908 test fulfilled this purpose, with subsequent versions known as the Stanford-Binet intelligence test and used into the 21st century. Although other 20th century intelligence tests were designed for different purposes, versions used with children all have high correlations with the Stanford-Binet. So our modern concept of intelligence does equate closely with school success.

The 19th century concept of intelligence was different. Measures devised by Francis Galton tested speed of motor response and facility for fine sensory discrimination. Had this concept endured, the black-white intelligence controversy might possibly have taken an opposite turn. Galton also established such statistical concepts as standard deviation, regression line, regression to the mean and correlation. He pioneered a form of "composite photography" for use in medical diagnosis and criminology, but concluded that it failed in its aims. But interesting as these incidentals are, I've gone way off topic....

Cheers
Mike
 
"School success ... does not equal intelligence!" That depends on the era Bart.

It depends on a whole lot more in my opinion. It is well known that e.g. super intelligent children can fail regular schools with poor grades. The reason it that they are bored to death with the slow pace of the educational program. The educational program should ideally be tuned to the intelligence/capabilities of the students.

Children with poor eyesight, or with hyper activity, if undetected/untreated, will perform poorly. Social problems, parental divorce or abuse, will impact the results, intelligence has little to do with it.

The list goes on.

All school results tell us is how well the program fitted the student's capabilities, not intelligence alone. IMHO, of course.

Bart
 
It is well known that e.g. super intelligent children can fail regular schools with poor grades. The reason it that they are bored to death with the slow pace of the educational program. The educational program should ideally be tuned to the intelligence/capabilities of the students.

Children with poor eyesight, or with hyper activity, if undetected/untreated, will perform poorly. Social problems, parental divorce or abuse, will impact the results, intelligence has little to do with it.

The list goes on.

All school results tell us is how well the program fitted the student's capabilities, not intelligence alone. IMHO, of course.

Bart

Agree with you fully, Bart. Scores on intelligence tests correlate moderately with overall school success (although strongly at the low end but weakly at the high end) as do numerous other factors.

But the point I was trying to make is that because intelligence tests were designed to measure school success and are used extensively in one form or another throughout
* Various educational systems,
* Vocational selection systems,
* Forensics and mental heath,
* (to mention just some applications),
Doesn't this suggest that 20th century western cultures (rightly or wrongly) defined, measured, and equated the concept of intelligence with school success?

Because school success was the criterion used to evaluate intelligence tests, our last century concept of what constitutes intelligence became identified with the skills measured within those tests. This limited perspective requires (and thankfully is getting) critical review.
Cheers
Mike
 
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