In Perspective, Planet: The Truckers Convoy

[Michael_Stones]

I pass this sign every morning when walking our dog to a nearby park. The householder updates the date on the placard on a daily basis. Why is it there and what does it mean?

It’s a reference to our Prime Minister who won’t meet with a ‘Freedom Convoy’ of truckers protesting against mandatory COVID-19 vaccination and other aspects of shutdown. Rather than meet with them, he moved to his cottage away from city, which explains the householder’s perspective and the wording of his sign. You’ve probably seen the resulting chaos coupled with wide support for the truckers after their arrival in Ottawa. The city today declared a state of emergency. So far, there are no reported injuries to people but some temporary desecration of monuments and reports of rudeness to people that oppose their mission. However, readers should be aware of biased reporting given that the Canadian media is very left-leaning.

What do ordinary Canadians think about all this. Despite 84% of Canadians having received vaccination against COVID-19, a current poll indicates that fully one-third of Canadians support the truckers. That is amazing! Canadians are usually so compliant with governmental mandates - to an extent that at least one European journalist described Canada as the world’s first ‘woke’ country. Maybe Canadians have finally woken up to some downsides associated with woke culture.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The mistake has been not to make vaccination compulsory as with smallpox!

The protestors are not qualified to have opinions on this subject unless they have some health problem.

Can’t believe the depth of Trumpian arrogance that has spread to Canada!

 

[Jerome Marot]

What do ordinary Canadians think about all this. Despite 84% of Canadians having received vaccination against COVID-19, a current poll indicates that fully one-third of Canadians support the truckers.

Which makes them a minority.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Which makes them a minority.

….and 30% is large enough to keep new variants happy!

Asher

 

[Michael_Stones]

Which makes them a minority.

Absolutely, but a minority more than twice as numerous as might be expected from the proportion vaccinated. Canadians historically are not protesters (with the exception of those Quebecers that wanted not to be Canadian). Support for the current protest may reflect impatience with governing principles based less on trustworthy evidence than on ideology.

 

[Michael_Stones]

The mistake has been not to make vaccination compulsory as with smallpox!

The protestors are not qualified to have opinions on this subject unless they have some health problem.

Can’t believe the depth of Trumpian arrogance that has spread to Canada!

1. The US Supreme Court legitimized compulsory smallpox vaccination in 1905. In the 1927 Buck v Bell case, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote that “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tube. Three generations of imbeciles are enough,” Following that decision, 24 states passed involuntary sterilization laws and around 60,000 women were ultimately sterilized under those statutes. Think carefully about potential outcomes before recommending compulsory vaccination.

2. Surely everyone is entitled to have an opinion about vaccination or anything else. It reeks of condescension to suggest otherwise. Whether you agree or disagree with an opinion is another matter and usually relates to a balance between multiple reasons that support or undermine it.

3. There’s nothing related to Trump regarding this protest. A poll around the time of the last US election asked Canadians who they would vote for if they were US citizens. The results indicated 14% would vote for Trump and 86% for Biden. Trump is barely tolerated here let alone respected. This protest is distinctly Canadian in origin and style.

There is a tendency among educated individuals of a ‘progressive-left' persuasion to call out or cancel those that disagree with them. However, there’s reasons to consider those attitudes more regressive than progressive, more religious than empirical. Have a look at this YouTube or, better still, read the author’s recent book.

Cheers, Mike

 

[Asher Kelman]

Mike,

Thanks for holding me to task!

My comments were immediate and reactive whereas your corrective arguments are considered.

It’s far better, even in a wrestling match to use the functions of the executive brain of man rather than the eruptive passion of emotions!

Every out gunned military company should have a commander with the adaptive higher functions always in control!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Mike,

I didn’t know of that shameful “imbecile” law derived from the successful Smallpox vaccination mandate.

Lesson is that vaccine mandates must be so narrowly written that they cannot ever again leverage such mutilations.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Mike,

Of course “cancel culture” must be avoided!

However denying the wrongness of the unvaccinated stealing the intensive care beds from other people must be fought.

We must choose between two bad options: forcing vaccination versus communities being robbed of their best health service and a two generations of healthcare workers broken with PTSD!

Asher

 

[Michael_Stones]

Mike,

Thanks for holding me to task!

My comments were immediate and reactive whereas your corrective arguments are considered.

It’s far better, even in a wrestling match to use the functions of the executive brain of man rather than the eruptive passion of emotions!

Every out gunned military company should have a commander with the adaptive higher functions always in control!

Asher

My initial reaction upon hearing of the Truckers convoy was not too far away from your concerns, Asher. It was only after talking with people when the convoy passed through here in Thunder Bay that I began to comprehend matters from an alternate perspective. At around the same time I was reading John McWhorter’s book on Woke Racism: How a New Religion has Betrayed Black America. Again, what he wrote made me rethink about dangerous implications of woke culture for where North America and parts of Europe are heading. You can get a summary of the book for less than $4.00 on Amazon.com

 

[Maris Rusis]

It could be a reasonable objective in these COVID times to have maximum freedom. But that is surely only reasonable if a balance struck that delivers maximum freedom for the maximum number. The virus dictates terms and those terms do not include total licence for everybody everywhere at all times.
Drawing extremes one could postulate individuals for whom conscience embraces no limit on their actions in spreading infection, disease, suffering, and death. At the other end of the scale are people for whom freedom is constituted in the absence of externally inflicted infection, disease, suffering, and death.
I would think the acceptance of death by random infection does not represent, for most, a comfortable personal compromise. There are tools to steer between total anarchy and total lock down.
These tools include vaccinations, masks, hygiene, personal spacing, crowd limits, PCR testing, and vaccination certificates for entry into sensitive zones like aged care or hospitals.
Total freedom for a few is not maximum freedom for all.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Absolutely, but a minority more than twice as numerous as might be expected from the proportion vaccinated. Canadians historically are not protesters (with the exception of those Quebecers that wanted not to be Canadian). Support for the current protest may reflect impatience with governing principles based less on trustworthy evidence than on ideology.

It is quite simple, really. 30% is a minority. Therefore the majority is against the truckers blocking Ottawa. Presenting this particular figure as some kind of victory is disingenuous.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Absolutely, but a minority more than twice as numerous as might be expected from the proportion vaccinated. Canadians historically are not protesters (with the exception of those Quebecers that wanted not to be Canadian). Support for the current protest may reflect impatience with governing principles based less on trustworthy evidence than on ideology.

You have to look at the proportion “unvaccinated” now, as those that have either zero or merely one shot of vaccine.

The idea of an “ideology” is over-generous in implying some set of consistent rational thought. But it’s not. The resistance to vaccination is also a protest against control by authority a kind of Canadian “Yellow Jacket” rebellion. There’s an element of self-empowerment and machismo in “standing up” to the men who seem to control their lives!

Most of the Workman fixing damage after two floods to my house had to be refused entry as they were unvaccinated. I had to allow in the company to pump water out of ducts below the bedroom floor. One was marathon runner and very Christian so he was sure his fit young male body and the backing of Jesus would protect him and anyway he was entitled to his opinion that the virus was a hyped up non entity.

Well he was so ill that he became cloudy in thinking and even 2 months later his wife is married to a boy of 14!

My insurance assessor eas the same. I pleaded with him to no avail as he had a wife an infant at home. Well he got very ill and so did all his family. Fortunately they recovered.

My experience is now that the workers are simply not equipped to evaluate the worth of the virus and their brains being infected with memes of conspiracy are resistant to any rational discussion.

That’s why public health measure must include financial and tax incentives or draconian restrictions in access to public places without vaccination or the public has to accept compulsory vaccination.

Here in the USA, Covid in the intensive care units has stressed out nurses and doctors beyond recovery. Some rent hotel rooms to go to after work to cry privately before returning to their families.

No Covid patient is turned away but we still havr 90% of the beds occupied by the unvaccinated and these are the ones who die!

And when I discuss these facts about the lethality and long term dangers of Covid, the workers tell me that’s merely my opinion!

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

You are making it more complex than it needs to be, Asher. The truth is simply that the number of people opposing vaccines, quarantaine, health measures, etc... is a minority. Presenting it otherwise as in "the numbers are high / growing / show a rising resistance to the government / etc" is disingenuous. There is no evidence of any of that, we have had covid for 2 years and the number of people opposing the health measures is still a minority.

 

[Michael_Stones]

You are making it more complex than it needs to be, Asher. The truth is simply that the number of people opposing vaccines, quarantaine, health measures, etc... is a minority. Presenting it otherwise as in "the numbers are high / growing / show a rising resistance to the government / etc" is disingenuous. There is no evidence of any of that, we have had covid for 2 years and the number of people opposing the health measures is still a minority.

Oh my! I learned something interesting here, Jerome. Despite the alleged progress in clinical psychology from Pavlovian conditioning to cognitive behaviour therapy, Pavlov reigns when smart people are exposed to an aversive conditioned stimulus. The conditioned stimulus here is the term COVID-19. It’s included in the first paragraph of the opening post. The second paragraph - the real message in the post - refers to a possible cultural change in Canada heralded by an unexpectedly high minority of ordinary Canadians that support the truckers.

What follows was conditioned emotive responses like Pavlovian dogs. Asher initially responded with “vaccinate 'em all”; you thought the second paragraph “disingenuous” cos "a minority is a minority” (good thinking that ); only Maris responded with a non-Pavlovian cognitive evaluation regarding the pandemic.

Just to clarify, our entire family is fully vaccinated, wears masks and happily follows recommended social distancing, etc. What other people think and do is up to them. If this post were intended to support or decry the aims of the Truckers convoy, I’d have chosen a thread in the COVID-19 section of OPFI, certainly not in the Layback Cafe.

Happy Woofing, Mike 🐶

 

[Michael_Stones]

You have to look at the proportion “unvaccinated” now, as those that have either zero or merely one shot of vaccine.

The idea of an “ideology” is over-generous in implying some set of consistent rational thought. But it’s not. The resistance to vaccination is also a protest against control by authority a kind of Canadian “Yellow Jacket” rebellion. There’s an element of self-empowerment and machismo in “standing up” to the men who seem to control their lives!

Most of the Workman fixing damage after two floods to my house had to be refused entry as they were unvaccinated. I had to allow in the company to pump water out of ducts below the bedroom floor. One was marathon runner and very Christian so he was sure his fit young male body and the backing of Jesus would protect him and anyway he was entitled to his opinion that the virus was a hyped up non entity.

Well he was so ill that he became cloudy in thinking and even 2 months later his wife is married to a boy of 14!

My insurance assessor eas the same. I pleaded with him to no avail as he had a wife an infant at home. Well he got very ill and so did all his family. Fortunately they recovered.

My experience is now that the workers are simply not equipped to evaluate the worth of the virus and their brains being infected with memes of conspiracy are resistant to any rational discussion.

That’s why public health measure must include financial and tax incentives or draconian restrictions in access to public places without vaccination or the public has to accept compulsory vaccination.

Here in the USA, Covid in the intensive care units has stressed out nurses and doctors beyond recovery. Some rent hotel rooms to go to after work to cry privately before returning to their families.

No Covid patient is turned away but we still havr 90% of the beds occupied by the unvaccinated and these are the ones who die!

And when I discuss these facts about the lethality and long term dangers of Covid, the workers tell me that’s merely my opinion!

Asher

You’re a scientist, Asher. A good one that researchers still cite decades after the research was published. I can’t discuss the wider COVID-19 situation outside our Thunder Bay region with any degree of confidence, so your experience with workmen seems foreign to be. I’ll tell you what the situation is here that is backed-up by data from our Regional Health Unit, which serves an urban, rural and remote population of about 150,000 people.

Compared to other regions in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada, our COVID-19 rates of infection, hospitalization and death were well below average from the outset of the pandemic. The probable reasons include a low population density, care taken to reduce risks within institutions, lock-down effects, compliance with safety recommendations, high vaccination rates and governmental fiscal assistance for those out-of-work because of lock-down. An outcome of the latter was that it was almost impossible to hire a workman to do anything indoors or outdoors. They preferred to go fishing at the taxpayers expense. Good for them.

Now here’s the situation today. The region has approximately 300 lab. confirmed active cases, 50 hospitalized cases and 10 in ICU. However, the hospitalized and ICU numbers include an undisclosed proportion brought into the region from elsewhere because the local rates are low. The first Omicron cases occurred at the end of November 2021. After December 25 virtually all new cases are Omicron. The Health Unit advises that because testing is restricted to at-risk groups, the true number of active Omicron cases likely exceeds the number of lab. confirmed cases.

Now here’s the rub. The symptoms for Omicron are reported to be no less harsh than for a seasonal cold or flue. Our family has no problems about vaccination and will have another booster if/when it becomes available. But for folks who for whatever reason don’t want vaccination, making it mandatory seems excessive, if they are prepared to take risks. If regular flue shots are not mandatory for occupations like trucking, why should Omicron shots be different. In fact, I have friends and colleagues that work in the Medical School and Regional Hospital who previously supported mandatory COVID-19 vaccination but don’t do now.

Cheers, Mike

 

[Jerome Marot]

Oh my! I learned something interesting here, Jerome. Despite the alleged progress in clinical psychology from Pavlovian conditioning to cognitive behaviour therapy, Pavlov reigns when smart people are exposed to an aversive conditioned stimulus. The conditioned stimulus here is the term COVID-19. It’s included in the first paragraph of the opening post. The second paragraph - the real message in the post - refers to a possible cultural change in Canada heralded by an unexpectedly high minority of ordinary Canadians that support the truckers.

What follows was conditioned emotive responses like Pavlovian dogs. Asher initially responded with “vaccinate 'em all”; you thought the second paragraph “disingenuous” cos "a minority is a minority” (good thinking that ); only Maris responded with a non-Pavlovian cognitive evaluation regarding the pandemic.

Just to clarify, our entire family is fully vaccinated, wears masks and happily follows recommended social distancing, etc. What other people think and do is up to them. If this post were intended to support or decry the aims of the Truckers convoy, I’d have chosen a thread in the COVID-19 section of OPFI, certainly not in the Layback Cafe.

Happy Woofing, Mike 🐶

It is quite simple, really. You wrote "a current poll indicates that fully one-third of Canadians support the truckers." and find that amazing. I don't, and point out that 30% is a minority. No you seem to continue to draw stretched theories on scant evidence. Pavlov actually organized real experiments.

 

[Asher Kelman]

You are making it more complex than it needs to be, Asher. The truth is simply that the number of people opposing vaccines, quarantaine, health measures, etc... is a minority. Presenting it otherwise as in "the numbers are high / growing / show a rising resistance to the government / etc" is disingenuous. There is no evidence of any of that, we have had covid for 2 years and the number of people opposing the health measures is still a minority.

I agree, it’s still a minority But 95% of the diversion of ICU beds and 24/7 depletion of stamina and well being of nurses!

Fine to exercise free will and refuse vaccination if they would then quietly accept their fate at home! We can’t send them away when they arrive in extremis!

we have the same issue with motorcyclist who object to wearing helmets. They arrive at the emergency room at night with intracranial hemorrhage and no insurance. Some surgeon is dragged out of bed and away from his family and has to accept that the fees won’t be paid and worse he might now be subject to a massive malpractice claim if the victim doesn’t walk again!

People have a right to endanger themselves but then the rest of society needs to be protected from their unfortunate decisions!

Asher

 

[Maggie Terlecki]

Well, I don't support them. I live in a small community and we were doing okay, far them the big city. Over 2 years, we had 5 deaths in the whole region, now in my town, since the end of December 38 more deaths. I went for blood tests this morning and warning signs that the 3rd floor has an eclosion of covid patients. This is not over. Most people I know are triple vaccinated, but this unvaccinated people are keeping this alive. They are not only disrupting the city of Ottawa, they are blocking bridges.

This morning I read that Elon Musk is now funding the truckers with crytocurrency and also that Donald Trump Jr. is supporting them and asking his followers to do the same.

And some say they should send in the army. To do what without violence? A trucker doesn't want to go, he'll lay on the ground in front of his truck.

 

[Jerome Marot]

Apparently Canadian TV stations do not feel safe and removed the logo on their cars:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491485627686154241

 

[Asher Kelman]

……And some say they should send in the army. To do what without violence? A trucker doesn't want to go, he'll lay on the ground in front of his truck.

Simple,

To drive a truck and earn a living on public roads all have to respect the rights of others and not willfully disrupt traffic flow!

So:

Make it illegal to use a truck or vehicle as a political or protest weapon by impeding free flow of traffic. Consequence woukd be impounding of the truck to defray police and army expenses and loss of truth license for 2 years.

Arrive with police, a magistrate and dogs and arrest truckers!

Army drives away trucks and they are auctioned off!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Apparently Canadian TV stations do not feel safe and removed the logo on their cars:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1491485627686154241

When the press feels unsafe, that’s a clear sign of the threat these truckers have to a free informed society!

We have to act decisively.

Asher

 

[Jerome Marot]

Make it illegal to use a truck or vehicle as a political or protest weapon by impeding free flow of traffic. Consequence woukd be impounding of the truck to defray police and army expenses and loss of truth license for 2 years.

It is not that simple. Impeding free flow of traffic is already illegal, but there are such things as right to protest and right to strike. And it is not as if we had a large source of people to replace truckers for which you suggest a loss of license. It is a difficult job, not that well paid and there aren't that many people able and willing to do it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

It is not that simple. Impeding free flow of traffic is already illegal, but there are such things as right to protest and right to strike. And it is not as if we had a large source of people to replace truckers for which you suggest a loss of license. It is a difficult job, not that well paid and there aren't that many people able and willing to do it.

Sure Jérôme,

But the legislators have at their disposal economists, labor lawyers and Union representatives and lobbyists to work out viable solutions.

Trucks are very expensive investments and truck licenses are hard to train for and get. Having trucks impounded even for a month would wake them up.

Trucks are too dangerous to be used in protests! With the danger of spillover to riots and insurrection, they, like tanks and bulldozers should be excluded from all public protests and demonstrations!

Asher

 

[Michael_Stones]

When the press feels unsafe, that’s a clear sign of the threat these truckers have to a free informed society!

We have to act decisively.

Asher

That is one person in Edmonton, Alberta, Asher. That person didn’t report being threatened. Whether he could be over-reacting or just after social media attention are possibilities.

Our son works for the same television service - Canadian Television (CTV) - in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He is Executive Producer. He been involved in three projects on protests during the past three days. One of these protests was by students at a high school in a nearby town, another at a blockade on the US border. Neither he nor his fellow reporters were to feel uncomfortable.

In the Province of Manitoba, the Provincial Government today announced the end of all COVID-19 restrictions by March 15. Time will tell whether that’s preferable solution than those by the Government of Ontario or the Federal Government.

 

[Asher Kelman]

These folk that feel so wronged are an interesting segment of the population.

I hope they get studies well. Are they related segments in vastly different countries just using the same conveniently effective society disruption or so they share much in common, for example with each other, the Yellow Jackets in France or Trump supporters in the USA?

 

[Jerome Marot]

These folk that feel so wronged are an interesting segment of the population.

Maybe they feel wronged for good reasons? I mean: driving trucks is a low paid job, with long hours away from one's family. I see how truckers camp on the side of motorways on Sundays in Europe. Now they discover that they are essential to society. It makes sense that they want a bigger share of the profits. The same can be said for cooks, hotel personal or nurses.

I hope they get studies well. Are they related segments in vastly different countries just using the same conveniently effective society disruption or so they share much in common, for example with each other, the Yellow Jackets in France or Trump supporters in the USA?

They share in common their receptivity to the calls of populists, but we should not confuse effects and causes here. The populists are the only one talking to these segments of the population. The rest of the political spectrum basically says "TINA" (There Is No Alternative)... World economy dictates that you can only get so much. Eventually they were bound to notice that the same people who told them that the economy dictates that they should be paid less had a higher salary than themselves.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Maybe they feel wronged for good reasons? I mean: driving trucks is a low paid job, with long hours away from one's family. I see how truckers camp on the side of motorways on Sundays in Europe. Now they discover that they are essential to society. It makes sense that they want a bigger share of the profits. The same can be said for cooks, hotel personal or nurses.



They share in common their receptivity to the calls of populists, but we should not confuse effects and causes here. The populists are the only one talking to these segments of the population. The rest of the political spectrum basically says "TINA" (There Is No Alternative)... World economy dictates that you can only get so much. Eventually they were bound to notice that the same people who told them that the economy dictates that they should be paid less had a higher salary than themselves.

Are they paid less than other workers with such level of skills, discipline, reliability and intelligence?

Some own their trucks. So is that from earnings or outside money?

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

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[Asher Kelman]

That’s just one advertisement from today. If a driver is able to work 30 weeks a year, that could bring up to $60,000 a year.

One training company claims:

“The lowest 10% of the drivers made less than $30,660 a year, however, the highest 10% of the truckers earned more than $69,480 per year. At Indeed.com, (as at September 2021) they show a higher trucker compensation.Jan 7, 2022.”

Asher