Where is the outrage?

[Jim Galli]

JERUSALEM Oct. 2, 2012– Vandals scribbled anti-Christian graffiti on the outer walls of one of Jerusalem's best-known churches early Tuesday morning, Israeli police said.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the perpetrators defaced a wall leading to the Church of the Dormition. The century-old structure is built on the site where tradition says the Virgin Mary died.

The graffiti, which read "Jesus, [insult to Christians removed per TOS, ADK], price tag," had already been removed by midmorning, said Rosenfeld.

He says police are still searching for the assailants, though suspicion has fallen on a fringe group of pro-settler Jewish extremists who have carried out similar vandalism on churches, mosques and Israeli army property. They say the acts are in response to what they consider pro-Palestinian policies by the Israeli government, a form of retribution they call a "price tag."

Israeli police said. Extremist Jewish West Bank settlers are suspected.

Where are the riots? Where is the outrage and murders!

Isnt' this interesting. Price Tag is extremist Jewish slang that links the acts to jews who are angry that the nation of Israel is making concessions to Palestinians. Jewish settlers on the west bank have been uprooted and the land returned to Palestinians.

So, jews are angry with arabs, palestinians, so they deface a christian church! Why didn't they deface a mosque and write [same insult adapted to Islam removed per TOS, ADK]

They understand that doing that to a mosque would start WWIII, while doing it to a christian church just makes the christians and the jews both sad, while they quietly scrub it away.

If Mr. Obama condemns this strongly, somebody let me know. I must have missed it.

 

[Asher Kelman]

JERUSALEM Oct. 2, 2012– Vandals scribbled anti-Christian graffiti on the outer walls of one of Jerusalem's best-known churches early Tuesday morning, Israeli police said.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the perpetrators defaced a wall leading to the Church of the Dormition. The century-old structure is built on the site where tradition says the Virgin Mary died.

The graffiti, which read "Jesus, [insult to Christians removed per TOS, ADK], price tag," had already been removed by midmorning, said Rosenfeld.

He says police are still searching for the assailants, though suspicion has fallen on a fringe group of pro-settler Jewish extremists who have carried out similar vandalism on churches, mosques and Israeli army property. They say the acts are in response to what they consider pro-Palestinian policies by the Israeli government, a form of retribution they call a "price tag."

Israeli police said. Extremist Jewish West Bank settlers are suspected.

Where are the riots? Where is the outrage and murders!

Isnt' this interesting. Price Tag is extremist Jewish slang that links the acts to jews who are angry that the nation of Israel is making concessions to Palestinians. Jewish settlers on the west bank have been uprooted and the land returned to Palestinians.

So, jews are angry with arabs, palestinians, so they deface a christian church! Why didn't they deface a mosque and write [similar INSULT to Islam removed per TOS]

They understand that doing that to a mosque would start WWIII, while doing it to a christian church just makes the christians and the jews both sad, while they quietly scrub it away.

If Mr. Obama condemns this strongly, somebody let me know. I must have missed it.

Jim,

As you well know, this disgusting behavior is neither supported nor condoned by the Israeli government or people. In all societies there are people at the fringes who say awful things. Such behavior is neither civil, respectful nor helpful. I do not understand their logic. In any case it's wrong.

Still we cannot then translate these insults to be against Islam. How does that make sense either, especially in OPF where we sit next to one another in respect and friendship?

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Here in OPF, we take the position that we are here to share passion for photography. So while we are open to important discussion on issues of current interest, repeating gratuitous insult to other folks' cultures, does not do any good and can only do harm, helping spread such venom. So, as per terms of service, we will do our utmost to have free speech, even when we don't like it, we cannot tolerate and be a repository for hate speech.

So yes, go ahead discuss, but let's remember, this is a living room with us as family! Hate speech, even accidental, will be deleted when reported.

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

Let me tell you a story. A true story.
Star date 1964. Position vector log reads England...A boarding school.

The cast of characters ( real names, but not full names ).

Mizrahi.
Costa.
Bharat.
Van Veelan..
Fahim.

The ending first. 2011, we got together in London. Our families, grandchildren. The occasion.
Bharat's daughter was getting married. She is a consultant anaesthetist.
Mizrahi's is in real estate. His own company.
Costa is in Britain, but maintains a summer house on lake Como.
Van Veelan, is in Cape Town, runs schools for native kids. Free.
Me. Well, you know a bit about me.

This is a story of young adults, thrown together by circumstance. A story of initial prejudice, bigotry, hate, irrational reasoning and logic. If ever there was to a clash of civilizations, of different faiths, of race, color, creed, caste, upbringing..this was it.

 

[Tom dinning]

Give me a picture and not an opinion on unrelated and volatile topics that have no resolution within this place. I can discuss a picture. Political bullshit is for other places.
Jim, go write it on a wall somewhere.

 

[Jim Galli]

Asher, if you're not going to leave what was said up the post becomes moot. Please eliminate the entire post.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, if you're not going to leave what was said up the post becomes moot. Please eliminate the entire post.

Jim,

The disgusting insult to Jesus itself is on the net.The actual slur can be read on the wall, if one does a search in google. But why should we be a repository of the actual translations of such muck? Everyone here is against hateful speech like that!

This would not be tolerated in Large Format Photography forum, Dpreview, Luminous-Landscape or any other good forum I know of. We've never edited out any pro-christian rhetoric, so you can't have any grievance for "Freedom of Speech" being curtailed, however zealotic it might be. For your post to work, all that's need is a reference.

I don't need telling you, or anyone else, that I admire your photography to the sky and have always shown you love and deep respect; however much our understanding of theology differed. Nevertheless, it's totally out of place and unfair to expect OPF to be a reference site for hate against anyone.

Besides the moral question of defaming folk, there are practical considerations. Recently we have all witnessed the tragic loss of life by zealots, (who get to the streets and murder Coptic Christians, Westerners or Muslim neighbors who they even suspect of siding with or tolerating such insults. So, knowing that, how could OPF moderators allow us to repeat and extend such violations.

Now, you know very well that I have an open ear to dialog. But that's always been with deep respect for each others upbringing and faith. Also, when I talk to a person with no faith, just logic, I must respect their intelligence and rationality too.

So, you argument that we're stifling expression is an entirely separate matter from an academic or brotherly discussion of deep religious values and important issue for humanity or the relevance of Christ in our lives. Believers from all sources, atheists too can debate. All will learn and a few might even change.

However, does the "price tag" for your exceptional film photography, (that I admire so much), have to be so high that we must republish and worse, expand the actual hateful words, insults to believers, as beacons for more hate speech and revenge? I don't think so. but there's more. If one preaches in the market place of educated rational beings, one will be faced with argument and counterargument and even dismissive attitudes. Well, that's hardly surprising with adults who have already formed opinions. This is not a school of 4 year old who simply absorb without question the wisdom of the teacher. So you can't take umbrage for your revelations on Christ or of insults to Christ being received with debate. After all, you knew it going in.

BTW, As a Jew, the support for Israel is really welcome, but really why so late? There was none to almost none during the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust or when crammed boat loads of hopeful Jews, escaping from the death camps of Nazi Europe, were barred from entry, rejected and sent back from the shores of the USA to the stunned Gestapo to be gassed, burnt or shot. Actually, for many of these deadly time periods, escape to Muslim lands was the only way of Jewish survival.

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I miss Jim's pictures. I would still delete his reference to hate speech. Could I have handled it another way? In any case, I see my interference, good or bad, filters folk from OPF!

Asher

 

[fahim mohammed]

I miss Jim's pictures. I would still delete his reference to hate speech. Could I have handled it another way? In any case, I see my interference, good or bad, filters folk from OPF!

Asher

Could you have handled it another way? Sure. You could have deleted the very first post of his!

Asher, this is your house. You set the rules. In this instance you acted based on your value system.
Personally, I think you were right.

Would you compromise your moral and ethical beliefs for a few good pictures and/or to retain some folk
On your forum?

As I said, once this thread got started, it had to lead to an unpleasant reading.

You miss someone's pics? Remember what happened around 60-70 years ago? That was the result of appeasement.

 

[Jerome Marot]

In any case, I see my interference, good or bad, filters folk from OPF!

And keeps the place civil. Which the folk who did not leave prefer.

Did I thank you for your moderation work? Probably not enough. Take care.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Would you compromise your moral and ethical beliefs for a few good pictures and/or to retain some folk
On your forum?

Of course not, Fahim.

However, I believe that while being resolute in our standards, and showing those "red lines" of decency mean something, I'd hoped I could allow him to withdraw to a disciplined position here. His religious beliefs I respect as being sincere. However his next steps, in demeaning others in his passion, (a preaching crusade to convert us), was unacceptable in this forum. We have promised that this forum will be safe for everyone no matter their beliefs, education of cultural background.

What disturbed me was that a few other Christians felt that we'd been less than respectful. It's not clear exactly what gave them that feeling, (this or another incident), but I always ask myself if I can do better. I have never wished to be less than welcoming to all expressions of spirituality, even when totally inconsistent with my own upbringing and logic. In fact, I'm happy to see different cultures thrive. After all, it's the patchwork quilt of humanity that comforts us and keeps us from freezing.

The red line I see is any taking advantage of our living room experience to actually recruit for anything but cordial exchange. Any aggressive hostile actions are out of place. That prohibition includes to cramming, even our "superior" values down other peoples throats.

To influence folk, we can share the best examples of what we each stand for. This way, we're enriched! Our words, behavior and images illuminate. Of course there's always more to discover, but that's the mystery that goes with living with each other. I'd rather be mistaken for another thousand years than other "lesser" folk get burnt up and destroyed in some brilliant enlightenment of our design.

What I ask myself is why Jim thought that OPF was the place to preach and cut down his opposition and not his home turf for his photography, Large Format Photography. Did I somehow give him license? Even though he's a prince there, I haven't ever seen any such behavior revealed there. Is it that our openness, something we boast about, gives some fool the wrong idea?

Asher