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Why pay xtra $10.000

22MP eMotion22 - 22 MP has "drooped" to "only" $23,600 new
22MP P 25Phase One ........................................... $$27,990.00 (calumet)
22MP Leaf Aptus ............................................... $24,995.00 (calumet)
22MP Ixpress 528C Multi shot ........................... $29,995.00(calumet)



22MP Mamiya ZD body+lenss ............................ £7000=13,329.32 USD ?

With the same sensor as other back, a bit slower buffer, but otherwise good image quality,

Why is Mamiya discounting $10k to 15k? and trowing in a MF AF body too?

Im I missing something?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do they all come with the same software? I have no idea of the answer, just
what I would call the obvious question. Or is Mamiya trying to get more market share?
 
i think that the RZ has some type of software. I know that Phase One has the best program, but if this is the difference, then it would be a then thousand dollars code.

Get more market share? I don't think that a company's business plan wold say: "more market share?... mmmh, no, no thank you.
 

Sid Jervis

pro member
leonardobarreto.com said:
i think that the RZ has some type of software. I know that Phase One has the best program, but if this is the difference, then it would be a then thousand dollars code.
As I don't know the MF market my comments may be way off line.
Don't they all do the same basic job?
And if they do, I wonder how such a price difference can exist without some serious questions being asked.

$0.02
 

Don Lashier

New member
Sid Jervis said:
As I don't know the MF market my comments may be way off line.
Don't they all do the same basic job?
And if they do, I wonder how such a price difference can exist without some serious questions being asked.

$0.02
Check the discussion at LL
There are differences (bit depth, buffer lag), but looks like it might be worth the difference in price.

- DL
 

Don Lashier

New member
Asher Kelman said:
Don,

Do you mean that the ZD might be worth getting BECAUSE of the difference in price?

Asher
Yes! Didn't see the ambiguity in my statement til now, but the view on LL seems to be the downsides are small compared to cost savings.

I suppose it depends on what type of shooting you do. iow a fashion shoot might find buffer lag intolerable. Also myself I would probably lean towards the Rollei/P20 in the same price range as 16mp is more than enough for my needs.

- DL
 
Exactly, now that there is enough pixels for most applications we can see a division of labor, for example a smaller, faster cheaper 1:1 format back for fashion shooting a la hasselblad/rollei. (the advantage for the 1:1 is that you can use a waist level view finder, difficult with a rectangular format when shooting landscape)

In my case, I was considering a scanning back, and I'm used to view cameras and RZ, so the ZD is much more practical and agile. Also I was on a long sabbatical and money IS a factor for me at the moment, as it probably is for many struggling photographers, after all this is a business too.

But the ZD can squeeze 1.2 frames in one second, ... you have to wait after the 10th. yes, but in film days you also had to do that to change magazine.

I think that what Mamiya may do is to come up with a 30 or 39MP to compete with the high end of the digital back, and may be a 16mp with bigger buffer at Canon price range...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I hope your expectations come true!

Except the finances of these companies are a big question, or not?

Asher
 

Paul Schefz

New member
the ZD does not have a direct competitor...the canons are 8000, the cheapest MF backs start at 17000...the only competitor is the rollei P20 bundle at 10.500....which shoots as fast, no buffer, and better files and better software...anyone who has compared 12bit and 16bit raw files knows that there is a clear difference which cannot be compensated with resolution....i think the zd is a great second camera for someone with a MF system, but with the canons (probably) coming up to 22mpix as well and shooting up to 3200asa way faster....
 
It is really interesting what is going to happen to the MF and LF in digital era. The megapilex armament race is bound to slow down only because we had reached the desired limits of resolution, and then we have that at speed limits. At one time we are not going to need more than 8 -- 24mp files in one second, no editor will need more than that, or will they. Any way the Canon optic system is not going to withstand more than that. So they will give you eight twenty four megapixels a second for $3k, so there will be a pixel deflation. The cost of a pixel going down down. Nobody will talk about "how many MPs my camera has", you will just dial as much as you want.

Who said that Mamiya is going to restrain the designers from using more than 22mp's on the ZD? if Canon can get 24 in half the size, they could do 48mps and the Canon would be the sidekick...

I think that with this pixel bonanza the scanning back may loose some market share, even museums are now considering MF for artwork reproduction.

I wish Mamiya came out with a PC-tilt macro, a tilt wide with no barrel distortion and a ZD back that could be upgradable and in tree flavors ZD-22mp $7k ZD-30mp $12k and ZD-48mp $15, and 1.2shots per second but no stoping. (thas why the are cheap, and if you want to spray and pray, then get you a Canon)
 

Tim Gray

New member
And then it seems that the rumours of a 22mpx 1d3 have converged to give some confidence that that will happen within the next month. OTOH Leaf and P1 have moved well beyond the 22mpx range in their top o' the line. ... is it worth an extra $30,000?
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
leonardobarreto.com said:
I wish Mamiya came out with a PC-tilt macro, a tilt wide with no barrel distortion and a ZD back that could be upgradable and in tree flavors ZD-22mp $7k ZD-30mp $12k and ZD-48mp $15, and 1.2shots per second but no stoping. (thas why the are cheap, and if you want to spray and pray, then get you a Canon)
And a 4x5 single-capture, true-color, digital insertable back at 108MP for under $10,000 would be nirvana.

We can spend a lot of time wishing but the reality of now is what is relevant -- that is unless you don't need to acquire your gear for another year or two.

One of the realities of now is NO MF camera manufacturer has a *viable* PC-tilt lens. (I tested two copies of the Arsat 45 tilt-shift lenses and they were useless if you shifted them more than about 4mm.) The fact is, if you want tilts and shifts on MF or larger *today* you need a view camera and lenses. Older 4x5 and 6x9 film cameras and lenses are relatively cheap, but also relatively useless for digital capture.

So another reality is having to spend over $10K. You'll need newer lenses and high-quality cameras to put a digital view outfit together -- and whether it's a 4x5 with a scanning back or MF view with a single-capture MF back of 22MP, 33MP *OR* 39MP, the hardware required to use the back isn't cheap, let alone the backs themselves.

Happy fantasies,
 
exactly

I don't have a back yet, so I'm researching scanning or one shot -- at the moment I want a used P 25 for $10k -- and have my Sinar or Mamiya 645 AFD waiting for donor. So I imagine, (like window shopping for shoes) that I went scanning back: No problem, lots of nice wide and 90mm lenses on eBay... but I wold have to buy the BHULS and the Northlights that are not cute or assuring investments as, say a really nice PROFOTO set up.

But If I imagine a P 24 for my AFD, then there are only, what? 3 or 4 AF lenses? I don't mind to manual focus, but the problem is than the older ones there is no auto f/stop and worst, you even have to change focusing screen if don't want blur mega pexel images..

So the ZD (as opposed to a ZD digital BACK) is not as desirable with/out good Mamiya AF compatible lenses like

-- One really good macro PC 110mm with shift AND tilt that could be used in studio for product. (Im getting my inspiration on the Nikkor 85 PC Micro)

-- One 35mm PC shift only non fish eye manual focus lens
-- One 45mm same

Or better, a flex body a la Hasselblad...

meanwhile, consider this .. http://www.alpa.ch/en/index.html
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
The shift lenses are still a pipe dream because they do not exist yet. So IMO your best option may be a used P25 V back and an ARC body instead of the Hassy Flex body as the Hassy V lenses don't have very much in the way of extra image circle -- though with the smaller P25 sensor you might be okay okay with the Flex. The good news is you could also use the V back on your Sinar so with good lenses on recessed boards, you really don't need the ARC. Then you could also probably sell your Mamiya AFD and buy equivalent Hassy V gear for not much cost difference since it is pretty cheap and available now. This would also allow you an easy upgrade path to a 39MP V back (Phase or Leaf) when the timing was right.

Strobes are certainly more portable than continuous lighting for similar power output and would easily meet your requirement of fitting in the trunk of a New York Taxi... A Profoto Acute 1200 and two heads fits in a tiny case, but the larger, heavier D4 pack has much more consistent color for digital capture, especially at low power output.

Cheers,
 
a tesis

The other alternative to jumpstart a business would be to get a Betterlight, use Quartz (Norton makes the Allure, a very inexpensive continuous light with fan and two bulbs that can be turn on or off for a total of 1000wats, 650 watt & 350 watt Lamps. The problem with hot lights is heat and power requirements (the problem with Northligh type is that they are a) expensive b) bulky d) relatively week.) so if I use the 350 or the 650 lamp while setting up, composing, framing focusing etc and then full power only at exposure time, heat could be minimize.

If I see that the situation is not going to allow the use of a scanning back, then I shoot film, with the lamps at 350w.

The advantage would be to be able to use the Sinar system and lenses and at the same time be able to adapt in a cost effective way to to the environment accordingly. If the client has a weak location -old electric system,- but will not take film, then I would rent a set of Northlights, and charge more.

All of this is a theory of course ... one that, if survives this forum, then may be ok.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=245489&is=REG&addedTroughType=search
thanks


Jack_Flesher said:
The shift lenses are still a pipe dream because they do not exist yet. So IMO your best option may be a used P25 V back and an ARC body instead of the Hassy Flex body as the Hassy V lenses don't have very much in the way of extra image circle -- though with the smaller P25 sensor you might be okay okay with the Flex. The good news is you could also use the V back on your Sinar so with good lenses on recessed boards, you really don't need the ARC. Then you could also probably sell your Mamiya AFD and buy equivalent Hassy V gear for not much cost difference since it is pretty cheap and available now. This would also allow you an easy upgrade path to a 39MP V back (Phase or Leaf) when the timing was right.

Strobes are certainly more portable than continuous lighting for similar power output and would easily meet your requirement of fitting in the trunk of a New York Taxi... A Profoto Acute 1200 and two heads fits in a tiny case, but the larger, heavier D4 pack has much more consistent color for digital capture, especially at low power output.

Cheers,
 

Edmund Ronald

New member
Another option: Canon fullframe with T/S lenses. By the time you've sharpened the image ad it has gone through to print I don't think you would get too many complaints. I've run the Canon 1DsII through long exposures and it's ok. A 5D + a couple of shift lenses should be enough, I might even sell you my 21 mm Zeiss if you ask nicely ;)

Edmund
 
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