Balance

[Bobby Deal]

An image from a recent shoot with one of my favorite nude models. Constructive Comment and Critique Welcomed

EXIF: 2009-08-21 NIKON D300 Exposure 1/125 Aperture f/4.0 ISO 100 Focal Length 52mm (78mm in 35mm) Exposure Bias -1 EV Exposure Mode manual

Bobby Deal Balance​

Image was created in mixed light Natural light from the doorway behind and a monolight with 16" beauty dish and 20 degree grid camera right across from model.

 

[Asher Kelman]

The balance between beauty, artistic form and strutting eroticism!

Bobby Deal Balance​

Bobby, I certainly like the model and your lighting setup. The use of the backlight is pleasing to me. I have some reservations about the picture because it sits between classes of pictures that I recognize. Of course, I don't pretend to be any expert at classifying pictures of women but here it seems that we are at the junction of glamor and art nude.

In erotic work, the model reaches to us in a way to likely cause arousal. In glamor it's more subtle and playful with just a sassy girl showing off her body. With the art nude, there's less emphasis on closing the gap between her and us. Rather she becomes objectified in a way that's respectful and celebratory of form. That someone might get sexual pleasure from that is more likely related to their own upbringing but the form itself is not essentially erotic. I'd instead use a word I've coined, "sensotic".

Here, Bobby I ask why the black shoes. That alone shifts us away, IMHO, from artistic nude to glamor or erotic nude as she has made a conscious decision to dress in a provocative way, those shoes. Why high heels? They cause the calf muscles to be prominent and emphasize the buttocks, adding up to a pose for attracting erotic consideration.

I'm not deriding anything erotic, just find this picture troubling as she seems such a good model for figure work and for my taste, she is not cast well in this pose. I wouldn't be critical if I didn't like the potential coming from photographic talent, lighting and choice of model. So maybe I might get forgiven for my excess.

Thanks for sharing this very well made picture. There are details, like the reflection of the shoes in the floor that I find to be technically well executed and also appealing. For the composition, I'd have looked for a way to double the width at least, providing white are dark space on the right that was mostly empty. Then the context would have tamed down those shoes.

Balance is a good title since it is not only referring to the physical need to be somehow graceful elevated on high heels, but also might fit in with my struggle to find an agreeable balance between beauty and cheap eroticism. Again forgiveness is asked for shortcoming in my comments as of course my view is only one of many and steered by my particular tastes, education and preferences and not by any absolute standards of esthetics.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Bobby,

An image from a recent shoot with one of my favorite nude models. Constructive Comment and Critique Welcomed

Nice counterweights (always good for balance).

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Glamour

To me this is erotic and not glamour. To me, glamour suggests but this goes beyond suggestion. The model doesn't look comfortable enough to be glamour yet her pose is more about highlighting her breasts which classes it more erotic.

Doug, your comment, as a female is bordering on offensive and tasteless.

 

[Asher Kelman]

To me this is erotic and not glamour. To me, glamour suggests but this goes beyond suggestion. The model doesn't look comfortable enough to be glamour yet her pose is more about highlighting her breasts which classes it more erotic.

Doug, your comment, as a female is bordering on offensive and tasteless.

Kathy,

It may be in part that the presentation is not yet there. After all this is just a shot not prepared for printing. If the distracting steel door handle and keyhole were edited out and one adds space to the right as I have suggested, this picture will likely take on a new look. I'd add two more copies of that door and clone the floor to the right. Then it won't just be about breasts. I didn't think it was anyway. It's just that in the small space, she's not free.

Off topic: As for Doug, let him be, that was just quick wit and I already communicated him about that! For sure he has no intention to be disrespectful. Humor is often a process of pulling someone down, making them like a child, a machine or an animal. That's what humor really is. Humor is not a refined process but a way of deflating things.

Erotic? Not for me but then maybe I need another vacation. The girl is very good looking but for me, just for my esthetics, the pose is awkward and not elegant. I am guessing much more is possible here! The quality of the photography is high but the promise is still there to be fully realized unless someone comes in to say otherwise and then I stand corrected. I struggle since I can only compare it with what I have seen and like!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Once again, it seems that all we are able to do about a work is argue about its genre, and then discuss how appropriate it is or is not for one genre or another to which it might belong.

"Interesting picture of a bolt, Henri. But I'm troubled. If we consider it in the 2-1/2 inch bolt category, it seems a bit short. But it almost has elements, just a pinch of the essence, of a 2-1/4 inch bolt picture. And so perhaps we must conclude it is a bit long."

Doug

 

[Rachel Foster]

I agree with Kathy that this is more erotic than glamour. It is a highly sexualized position and the shoes the model is wearing are crudely known as "f*** me" shoes.

Now, as far as erotica goes, I think this is among the finer images I've seen in that genre. It is very sexy, artistic, without going into porn.

My question: Why can we not call erotica erotica? I've no problem with that genre as long as it's tasteful. Perhaps that's a discussion for the provocative thoughts thread though. Mods, feel free to move this response if you think that to be the case.

 

[Bobby Deal]

Thanks Asher, there is no doubt that this model is balancing her eroticism here. She was recently featured in Penthouse and would not be caught dead without heels to emphasize her female curves It just is who she is which is one of the things I personally liked about the images that it balanced her true personality with a somewhat passive aggressive sexuality without turning the corner to true mens magazine soft core.

I would have loved to provide more negative space to the right but sadly this image was created in a narrow second floor landing hallway that ends about 2 inches past the door frame. I suppose I could have gone with a wider lens choice but then I think the addition of a counter angle so close would have felt confining rather then leading me to feel as if there were indeed open space camera right.

 

[Bobby Deal]

Thank you all, I have no problem with the image being viewed as erotic art, at creation it was fully intended to provoke some stimulation. If it did not I am sure the model would be disappointed.

The idea of adding space to the right that is not actually available is an option I had not considered because personally I had liked the existing balance between dark and light that already existed but now Asher has me thinking about it. I do agree that the door hardware needs to go though I might not have noticed it had it not been mentioned.

The shoes, ohh the shoes I thought to be come f@#$ me shoes they had to be red? Otherwise we in Las Vegas simply refer to them as Stripper Heels and in Las Vegas they are simply part of every models wardrobe because it seems to be what is expected of them here and hey at least they are black and not clear lexan.

In the end I suppose this image is a success as it has stimulated debate and provoked thought and consideration and in at least one case has drawn a purely emotional response and in truth what more can we ask for as artists then to make emotional connections between the art and the viewer

 

[Rachel Foster]

They have to be red? Hmmm....learn something every day!

Minor point...since the image is B&W, red shoes would look the same as these.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Remapping of Color Values to Tonalities.

They have to be red? Hmmm....learn something every day!

Minor point...since the image is B&W, red shoes would look the same as these.

Rachel,

Red shoes would look whatever shade of black to gray to white that was assigned in the mapping of hue to luminosity or else it would just depend on how bright the shoes were illuminated and reflected light. A red pair of shoes is red with a certain degree of color saturation and also bright or dark. If you merely desaturate the red, a dark red could come out charcoal or grey and if well illuminated could be white. But the real power of transforming to B&W is not the removal of color information by desaturation, but rather the remapping of hues to tonalities. That way, we can distinguish colors of a tapestry of the same brightness by mapping them to different levels of grey. If one merely desaturated such a tapestry, then it would be uniformly grey and the pattern would have vanished.

So now with this in mind, mapping of hues to grey levels can also be used in portraits or nude models to improve the appearance of skin by negating differences between blemishes and the normal skin or else enhancing, say the lips, for effect.

As for +*&*!ng shoes, I'm glad to have been brought up to date and especially with view the the coding of black for "ready, classy and perhaps" and red for "a good bet". Still, I doubt whether they have my size!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Asher, there is no doubt that this model is balancing her eroticism here. She was recently featured in Penthouse and would not be caught dead without heels to emphasize her female curves It just is who she is which is one of the things I personally liked about the images that it balanced her true personality with a somewhat passive aggressive sexuality without turning the corner to true mens magazine soft core.

Funny, withy Rachel declaring that this is erotic, I seem to like it better as something beautiful although I still find the pose very awkward and don't find it so much erotic that I would place it there. She is a lovely woman and perhaps I'm getting to know her and actually see her in a far larger room.

I would have loved to provide more negative space to the right but sadly this image was created in a narrow second floor landing hallway that ends about 2 inches past the door frame. I suppose I could have gone with a wider lens choice but then I think the addition of a counter angle so close would have felt confining rather then leading me to feel as if there were indeed open space camera right.

Bobby,

forget the lens and shooting conditions. We are always limited there but not in the construction of the work to be delivered! Art is the externalization of ideas through physical forms and part of that is an iterative approach to make that idea seem comfortable and complete so it gets its own lifeform, so to speak. I feel that this picture can, let me dare to say, "should" be tried with the editing capability you have to add to the right side for example two further doors and floor, that it. You might also photograph an empty room in an hotel with beautiful windows from the same distance this was taken and simply replace the windows and floor of this image. In any case, I don't see why an artist should be limited to using the b.g. provided in the shoot!

As for the shoes, I see they are part of the expected lexicon for this type of shoot. With enough space, I think that mainly her person will come through and it will be even more erotic as Rachel suggests.

Asher

 

[Bobby Deal]

They have to be red? Hmmm....learn something every day!

Minor point...since the image is B&W, red shoes would look the same as these.

Yes they would at least for the most part but in this case they were indeed black but I will concede a point to each of us ;-)

 

[Bobby Deal]

Asher in Las Vegas I guarantee you that they have those stripper heels in your size and in Black, Red and every shade of saturated grey you could desire
The drag queens here would be furious if they could not find shoes to fit them when they go on stage!

 

[Bobby Deal]

Funny, withy Rachel declaring that this is erotic, I seem to like it better as something beautiful although I still find the pose very awkward and don't find it so much erotic that I would place it there. She is a lovely woman and perhaps I'm getting to know her and actually see her in a far larger room.



Bobby,

forget the lens and shooting conditions. We are always limited there but not in the construction of the work to be delivered! Art is the externalization of ideas through physical forms and part of that is an iterative approach to make that idea seem comfortable and complete so it gets its own lifeform, so to speak. I feel that this picture can, let me dare to say, "should" be tried with the editing capability you have to add to the right side for example two further doors and floor, that it. You might also photograph an empty room in an hotel with beautiful windows from the same distance this was taken and simply replace the windows and floor of this image. In any case, I don't see why an artist should be limited to using the b.g. provided in the shoot!

As for the shoes, I see they are part of the expected lexicon for this type of shoot. With enough space, I think that mainly her person will come through and it will be even more erotic as Rachel suggests.

Asher

Thanks Asher, when I can find some time to play with this image further I will take a shot at relocating her and changing her reality. While you are correct in your assumption that I have the editing capabilities to do this I am much more photographer then designer so I have a tendency to present my subjects in the environment and reality in which they are presented to me.

 

[Charlotte Thompson]

How would she look sitting on that ledge as something different
her legs are long enough to work in different poses-
she needs a bit of a relaxed looked I think
beautiful Cleopatra look to her!!

Charlotte-

 

[Bobby Deal]

She wanted to sit on it but I would not let her, the wall runs along a landing on the 3rd floor of a 4 story loft. It is a full two floor drop to the next landing from that wall.

 

[Leonardo Boher]

Hey ladies... The guy who did this pic seems not to be aware of what he did. Just try to be less reactive and a bit more reflexive, forget your condition of male or female in order to judge properly and be listened. The guy needs to see other possibilities in order to be a bit more self aware of his pics. Most mistakes are due ignorance, and ignorance can only be erradicated by education, and education only exists when love is high, other whise, hate arrives and it uses the others faults to state everybody's ego instead being useful with certain topic.

Retraction of the said... The guy knows what he does. Man, you're turning the best art on earth into a product of consumerism. There is no difference between an advertisement of an spray and this, going beyond the shape and form it's the same thing: a product.

 

[Asher Kelman]

Retraction of the said... The guy knows what he does. Man, you're turning the best art on earth into a product of consumerism. There is no difference between an advertisement of an spray and this, going beyond the shape and form it's the same thing: a product.

Leonardo,

Bobby does his thing, you do yours and I do mine. I think you are, perhaps, too harsh!

Actually he puts her on display very well and I like it. In fact, I like her and her shoes as a kind of identity bracelet. I've come to like her. Yes, it may be consumerism, but so is selling pre-printed books at an art show! The main thing is what he's doing is done with no humiliation or shame, just celebrating the handsome beauty of the woman in a particular way. Let me shock you to your bones, Leonardo! I've discovered that an artist may have no emotions. Art, I now believe can be made in a purely intellectual way, pure beauty, devoid of feelings: no love, no passion, no trembling excitement, just beauty or just ugliness or even neither.

Here at least, if we are of the right mind, we can bring out own imagination to the picture. That's where the passion and thought comes from. The artist just has to make the work and sell it!

Asher

 

[Bobby Deal]

Hey ladies... The guy who did this pic seems not to be aware of what he did.

OK I have been away from the forum for a few months and am just seeing this.

So Leonardo would you mind explaining to me exactly what it is that I have allegedly done that is wrong? Your post would make it seem as if you believe I ought to be offering an apology somewhere for my actions. I will grant that I have not fallen back and reread this whole discussion which actually occurred in Sept of 2009 but to the best of my recollection I do not believe I have wronged anyone.

The photo, well it is what it is and you can like it or not but nothing in your or anyone else's opinion will make it right or wrong, it simply is and will be perceived differently by different people. Personally I think the image a huge success as it caused viewers to take the time to closely examine it and provoked serious and even intellectual discussion. What more can we ask or expect from our art then this?

The guy needs to see other possibilities in order to be a bit more self aware of his pics. Most mistakes are due ignorance,

Seriously? First off I have a name, it is right there on my post and it is not THE GUY
Secondly am I to understand correctly that I am being told by a retoucher who has never spoken to me or had any interaction with me that I am photographically ignorant? What makes you more authoritative in the ART of Photography then I? What or who places you in the position to publicly proclaim me ignorant?

Retraction of the said... The guy knows what he does. Man, you're turning the best art on earth into a product of consumerism. There is no difference between an advertisement of an spray and this, going beyond the shape and form it's the same thing: a product.

Retraction? Seriously? I don't see anything retracted, lightening the font color does not retract a statement. Putting the word Retraction after it does nothing to retract the statement when it is there for all to see and read.

Beyond all that.....Yes you are correct I do know what I do and I do view my art as a product. I find it absolutely essential that I do view my art as a product for commercialization. In my mind if it is not a product then I / we become to emotionally attached to it to be able to commercialize it and sell it. I do not have a problem with this mindset, if you do then 100% ownership of that problem is relegated to you sir. So in retrospect I would invite you to offer a solution to this problem you perceive in my mindset.

Somehow though I suspect you will have difficulty offering a solution as you to would have to be seen as guilty of the commercialization of art as well. You Sir, are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. You place yourself in a professional position to commercialize the art of others by charging them to retouch their art yet it would seem that it is OK for you and those who pay you to commercialize their art but for me a perfect stranger to you it is somehow a misdeed?????????????????

I will grant you correct one more time as you are right; in my opinion there has been a display of ignorance here. However I fear it does not originate from the source you suppose it too.

In all candor, if you want to critique my work from the perspective of your position as a professional retoucher then by all means have at it, shred it even if you feel you must, I am a big boy and have been in this game long enough to have survived my fair share of frosty reviews. I would however caution that any judgment you make against me personally ought to be prefaced by supporting fact and not supposition. To publicly proclaim negative judgments against my personal level of intelligence or character without supporting facts is quite simply rude and unacceptable.

 

[Nigel Allan]

Bobby, I think it is a nice nude study and very nice black and white rendering. The shoes are part of the vernacular or language of this type of shot these days and make the statement, for me, that it is glamour/erotica rather than 'fine art' ....but these are just labels and pidgeon holes that help us contextualise things within our existing frame of reference, they mean nothing.

I suspect the shoes also transport this shot into the realm of portraiture as it is capturing the model's persona and conveying it on film - the shoes are who she is. Without them, it would be another nude.

The only niggle I have with it is the distraction of the door furniture in the arch of her back, as otherwise her pose is lovely and accentuates her lovely form.

To me this shot suggests a portrait of a Vegas showgirl or erotic dancer rather than an abstract nude, and as such it succeeds

I gotta get me some of those shoes...do they work for anyone?

 

[Bobby Deal]

Thanks Nigel I think you just boiled this image down to its true essence.

Personally I don't thin the shoes would work for me but there are many a Vegas Drag Queen that swear by them ;-)