In Perspective, Planet: Forgive me! A question on extrajudicial killing by robot!

[Asher Kelman]

The very first robot detonated killer bomb was used to end the life of the prime suspect in the ambush shooting of Dallas police officers on duty at an otherwise totally peaceful protest rally last night.

The police chief explained that the suspect was holed up in the parking garage, and after complaining about the recent killings by white police of two blacks, apparently said that he wanted to kill whites and especially white policemen.

Since negotiations with the police specialists broke down, to end the totally secure standoff, they simply sent in a robot with a bomb and declared that "the robot detonated it's bomb" as if the robot was a policeman and that action was justified!

This astonishes me. More so since no news commentator has seen fit to cost the morality of such extrajudicial killings. To me, it is highly suspicious that the police themselves were adamant that the fellow should not have the luxury of a trial or a further platform for his speech against the police seemingly hunting blacks as if their lives did not matter.

Has anyone heard any debate on this. Are we to allow police departments to end standoff a by simply blowing up the suspect when there are other solutions, such as simply codon ing off the area and waiting him out?

Am I alone in this, or is this, in itself, rotten too!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

The very first robot detonated killer bomb was used to end the life of the prime suspect in the ambush shooting of Dallas police officers on duty at an otherwise totally peaceful protest rally last night.

The police chief explained that the suspect was holed up in the parking garage, and after complaining about the recent killings by white police of two blacks, apparently said that he wanted to kill whites and especially white policemen.

Since negotiations with the police specialists broke down, to end the totally secure standoff, they simply sent in a robot with a bomb and declared that "the robot detonated it's bomb" as if the robot was a policeman and that action was justified!

I certainly have not heard, even via TV news outlets, the full purported details of this aspect of the incident, but my limited understanding is that the suspect was engaged in an ongoing "shootout" with police officers.

But I really don't know.

I hesitate to comment on the "morality" of an occurrence the full details of which I don't even semi-credibly know.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Doug Kerr]

Putting aside for the moment the issues arising in the wake of the "novel" way the Dallas matter was brought to a close, the entire chain of events (if it was indeed a "chain", as seems to be so) is a tragedy of "Greek" (in the classical sense) scope and nature. And it seems as if the "chain" may have some more tragic branches. Tragedy so often begets more tragedy, so often in an expanding web.

By the way, Carla's grandson Andrew went to High School in Fort Worth, Texas, with Patrick Zamarripa, one of the officers killed in the Dallas rampage.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



I certainly have not heard, even via TV news outlets, the full purported details of this aspect of the incident, but my limited understanding is that the suspect was engaged in an ongoing "shootout" with police officers.

But I really don't know.

I hesitate to comment on the "morality" of an occurrence the full details of which I don't even semi-credibly know.

Best regards,

Doug

According to the chief of police he was given a choice, to negotiate or be blown up by the robot's bomb.

However, there is no report of any thing or body except the robot being in the secured evacuated area. Given the facts reported openly by police, they could have waited him out, but it is obvious that they had decided to kill him.

I think it is illegal!

Asher

 

[Antonio Correia]

I may be illegal but it is a quick way to solve the problem.

It is an advice to others who will think twice (at least) before doing something similar.

It doesn't risk any more lives !

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/technology/dallas-robot-death/

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

According to the chief of police he was given a choice, to negotiate or be blown up by the robot's bomb.

That characterization does not comport with the chief's discussion of the situation at his press conference carried by the Dallas NBC affiliate. That can hopefully be seen here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dallas-...s-721129539651

There, he said that the subject had, after a period of "negotiation", begun shooting at the officers who were "covering" him (my term).

I know you argue that the police should have just withdrawn to a safe distance, kept the site "secure", and waited for the subject to pass out from thirst or hunger. I'll comment on that tactic shortly, but I did feel the need to comment on a discrepancy with regard to what Chief Brown had said.

And of course, perhaps he said what you said he said (or what you said some other guy said he said) on some other occasion.

As to the possibility that the site could be kept "secure" while waiting for the subject to pass out sometime in the next couple of days, I note that the site was the second floor of the parking garage at a community college (El Centro), with (I believe) open walls on two sides, facing streets in the Dallas central business district.

Now, as to the struts on the rotary plow cutter . . .

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



That characterization does not comport with the chief's discussion of the situation at his press conference carried by the Dallas NBC affiliate. That can hopefully be seen here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dallas-...s-721129539651

There, he said that the subject had, after a period of "negotiation", begun shooting at the officers who were "covering" him (my term).

I know you argue that the police should have just withdrawn to a safe distance, kept the site "secure", and waited for the subject to pass out from thirst or hunger. I'll comment on that tactic shortly, but I did feel the need to comment on a discrepancy with regard to what Chief Brown had said.

And of course, perhaps he said what you said he said (or what you said some other guy said he said) on some other occasion.

As to the possibility that the site could be kept "secure" while waiting for the subject to pass out sometime in the next couple of days, I note that the site was the second floor of the parking garage at a community college (El Centro), with (I believe) open walls on two sides, facing streets in the Dallas central business district.

Now, as to the struts on the rotary plow cutter . . .

Doug,

At a time when the entire world has been given repeated visual doses of what appears to be practically speaking, "executions" of blacks by police in the U.S.A., it boggles my mind to have a a chief of police report with the distinctly and arrogantly dissociative introduction, "what transpired" ............was that he died as a result of the robot detonating it's bomb. The robot's bomb is no different than a machete in an angry vengeful grieving man's hand! It is not what is expected for a well disciplined modern police force that has already secured a relatively unpopulated location! If the police are empowered to just distinegrate suspects, where does this grab of power stop in progressive obliteration of "undesirables"?

The location was a parking garage emptied of people except for perimeters of police officers. The robot could have fired an anesthetic dart, just as done for wild bears or mountain lions that also pose a threat. Doesn't a suspect have the same worth as a marauding violent and life-threatening wild animal? The Dallas police department has hundreds, (the reported number delivered from the army is 1000), of such bomb disposal robots. They could have sent in a dozen more each armed with darts, in case one missed!

So "negotiations broke down"! So what? Does that mean we allow infuriated police to be judge and executioner. As much as "he had it coming to him", allowing themselves the easy option of blowing up a suspect, only further degrades our criminal justice system!

Surgical approaches shouldn't krill the subject!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Well, apparently the Dallas Robot is not the first robotic execution. One of the results of the hue and cry by the anti-death penalty advocates over the "cruel and unusual punishment" and undue suffering has been the recruitment of European drug manufacturers to put a boycott on sale to States of anesthetic drugs for that purpose. Apparently, since 2014, the State of Ohio, quietly introduced it's own robotic device which now allows pain free execution of death row prisoners, without having to deal with charges of wonton cruelty or having to illegally divert anesthetic agents from hospitals to the prison service for lethal injections.

The process , being painless, (and only applied after judicial review of jury trials where the convict had had adequate defense), should allay, once and for all any reservations that botched lethal executions are undermining the death penalty system since until now, convicted murders are now just living out their lives on "death row" making the expensive justice system and trials pretty pointless procedures.

Note that in Ohio, legislators would never consider allowing police to bipassing the system and simply execute the suspect without trial in some deserted parking garage.

Asher

 

[Antonio Correia]

This killing reminds me the ones made with drones where pilots just see the target without knowing what is behind or inside them. Most of times. Sometimes they do however !...

Different circumstances and scenarios but killing rather "blindly" so to speak.

Image from "The Guardian"

 

[Jerome Marot]

The process , being painless, (and only applied after judicial review of jury trials where the convict had had adequate defense), should allay, once and for all any reservations that botched lethal executions are undermining the death penalty system since until now, convicted murders are now just living out their lives on "death row" making the expensive justice system and trials pretty pointless procedures.

A decapitation robot? What about this one?

And maybe you should check snopes before posting a video which originated at The Onion...

 

[Asher Kelman]

This killing reminds me the ones made with drones where pilots just see the target without knowing what is behind or inside them. Most of times. Sometimes they do however !...

Different circumstances and scenarios but killing rather "blindly" so to speak.

Image from "The Guardian"

Actually, they do know who they are aiming for! There is an elaborate network of intelligence and "target" confirmation before these birds are flown. Not justifying their use, just correcting the impression that the controllers don't know the individuals being targeted. One by one, leaders of terrorist groups are being assassinated. Does this have any real tactical or strategic value in winning a war against an enemy infected with jihadist ideals? That's another matter.

But for now, as long as the West is not pained enough by the horrendous events in Paris, Jeddah, London, Syria and Bangladesh, it is a sufficient, "something lethal to do" short of actually confronting the enemies with troops on the ground. The Europeans have no interest in this, (their own borders are already overrun from either refugees,a British chunk of its fabric slipping away or A Russian bear chewing up appetizing morsels of Europe to the East. Meanwhile, Australia and New Zealand feel too far off from terrorist bomb problems. Finally, to Canadians, it's a zero sum game that they can leave to the USA!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

A decapitation robot? What about this one?

I wonder, Jerome, did this "robot" you chose to highlight, contribute to bringing social justice or is it merely another sign that we are still vicious but rather clever apes?

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

It is interesting to note with regard to David Brown, current Chief of Police in Dallas, that just a few weeks after he took that office, in 2010, his own son (and namesake) fatally shot a police officer and another man before being killed in a confrontation with the police.

Adding further to the history of tragedy Chief Brown has suffered, in 1988, Brown's police academy classmate and former partner, Walter L. Williams, was killed in the line of duty. Three years later, drug dealers killed his younger brother, Kelvin Brown, in the Phoenix area.

Chief Brown has been widely hailed for bringing a greatly improved situation of communication and mutual trust between the Dallas Police Department and the citizens of Dallas.

Do note that I am not in general a supporter of Texas in general nor of Dallas in particular.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Jerome Marot]

I wonder, Jerome, did this "robot" you chose to highlight, contribute to bringing social justice or is it merely another sign that we are still vicious but rather clever apes?

Allow me to answer with another image:

 

[Asher Kelman]

It is interesting to note with regard to David Brown, current Chief of Police in Dallas, that just a few weeks after he took that office, in 2010, his own son (and namesake) fatally shot a police officer and another man before being killed in a confrontation with the police.

I read that too Doug. I thought just from that he needed someone less burdened to judge when to use absolute lethal force to solve an issue with many moral, ethical and long term legal implications. If he were a judge, he would have to recluse himself in such a case. If he were a prospective juror in a police shooting case, both sides would have dismissed him without hesitation!

Adding further to the history of tragedy Chief Brown has suffered, in 1988, Brown's police academy classmate and former partner, Walter L. Williams, was killed in the line of duty. Three years later, drug dealers killed his younger brother, Kelvin Brown, in the Phoenix area.

Once again, this, extraordinarily personal, experience changes the police chief's frame of reference for deciding the next step. With his markedly wounded psyche, it's less likely that his operational decision in dealing with a "failed negotiation" in an isolated cleared parking garage, would be more guided by wisdom and patience than by an excuse for satisfying revenge and payback. After all, this way, no one gets to massacre police and lives to walk away from the scene!

Chief Brown has been widely hailed for bringing a greatly improved situation of communication and mutual trust between the Dallas Police Department and the citizens of Dallas.

Here, my friend, is where the great inner strength and values of the chief comes into play so beautifully. He's using his interlect and education and not his base instincts. Recognizing and exploiting ones own strengths and avoiding one's inherent weaknesses is part of being a great citizen.

I am a passionate person. I react strongly to beauty and suffering and injustice. So I chose science, medicine and art and do not own a gun.

We do need decision trees where especially trained, capable, non-wounded and disciplined specialists take over when a person of interest is isolated but refuses to put down his weapon. This great human being, the Chief on Dallas made an error of monumental proportions that flies in the face of our criminal justice system.

Ideally, when we are in control, only after a fair unbiased trial, can a person deemed to have slaughtered cops be executed, (if that punishment is both warranted and legal at the time). I do not think that the police chief was at all committed tothis idea in this heated moment.

As soon as he started to recount the killing of the cornered armed and dangerous suspect with the words, "it transpired", it was obvious to me that he was attempting to distance himself from the chain of causality and accountability, rather laying the blame on a sequence of "happenings" and a robot that couldn't possibly have a notion of "revenge"!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

I am a passionate person. I react strongly to beauty and suffering and injustice. So I chose science, medicine and art and do not own a gun.

And for that I am immensely grateful!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Allow me to answer with another image:

The idea of "Trickle down economics" might sound plausible, but feeding folk in lower strata by food that falls out of our mouths does not work.

We have executive pay, stock markets and corporate profits constantly rising but no reflection in the compensation for the middle class or workers. Allowing big corporations to exploit the global workforce and keep their gains off shore means both the primary flow of income to be recycled and the tax income to pay for social services are not replenished.

The folk in the pictures look healthy and well fed. That does not mean social justice. But, at least here in the USA, we also give away food and we support single mothers with children. Those fortunate enough to find "workers" jobs, get very low wages. Here in California, I have found that most of the very large steel fabrication shops employ Hispanic workers. They are absolutely reliable, hardly ever strike and work hard, appreciating their fortune........but make sure their grandchildren are going to college to better themselves.

You are correct to point out our shortcomings, Jerome.

But we are blessed with a vibrant immigrant population that will guarantee the strength of our evolving society.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

As soon as he started to recount the killing of the cornered armed and dangerous suspect with the words, "it transpired", it was obvious to me that he was attempting to distance himself from the chain of causality and accountability, rather laying the blame on a sequence of "happenings" and a robot that couldn't possibly have a notion of "revenge"!

Please do not allow yourself to become obsessed with Chief Brown's admittedly "neutral" locution. Those actually holding "public" office, often, like physicists, learn to use such "dispassionate" language. Rather than suggesting a lack of feeling, it is often quite the contrary: a way to avert the horror within ones-self.

I suspect that as a physician you have often had to do the same.

I certainly do not find in the various tellings of what transpired any intimation that the robot felt a notion of revenge or that the robot was somehow "to blame" for what happened. I think that is a straw man.

But if you again make disparaging reference to Chief's Brown's saying "it transpired", I will scream.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



Please do not allow yourself to become obsessed with Chief Brown's admittedly "neutral" locution. Those actually holding "public" office, often, like physicists, learn to use such "dispassionate" language. Rather than suggesting a lack of feeling, it is often quite the contrary: a way to avert the horror within ones-self.

I suspect that as a physician you have often had to do the same.

Just the contrary. I was always emotionally swayed by the patient, as a person. However, deciding on the unique way to reliably deliver a distribution of radiation energy deposited in a tumor had zero emotive content. This was solely a mathematical modeling based on known limits of recoverable damage to essential normal tissues.

It seems that we, as a nation, are not prepared to recognize and address the slippery slope going from having the free choice to blow up a cornered suspect, because of risk to police officers. Soon we could find ourselves blowing up proven heavily armed and fortified crack houses as expeditiously, as for sure it would decrease the risks to police officers who shouldn't have to put their lives on the line for such scum.

Unfortunately, we are almost totally blind to the Orwellian horror that is being ushered into "law enforcement".


Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Is the shooter, in any way, morally justified?

The nation cannot be healed by a few hundred candles and prayer songs.

if a million blacks are trained in infantry tactics and come home to find that blacks can be slaughtered by police as a normal part of many communities, then it's hardly surprising that an occasional man, decides to give his own life to force society to rethink the consequences of the current disrespect for blacks, here on American soil.

Isn't he the tragic and unforgivable equivalent of a "Jesus figure", who sacrifices his life for social justice? Of course, he was not sent by God but his own conscience and feelings for the brethren human beings in his frame of reference.

After all, isn't brave self-sacrifice for one's "brothers" taught to all combat soldiers?


I am not saying it isn't morally reprehensible, but at least I think I am understanding more clearly how we shouldn't be at all surprised by a tiny fraction of millions of returning battle-tested Americans might come home to plot death and destruction.


Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

Solution,

As a start:

zero tolerance for racism and trigger happy cops. Public ally fire and or retire any cop who shows racist attitudes, even as a jest. Retrain everyone to stricter rules for use of deadly force.

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Let me see if I can summarize the story here. I will in some cases imply a causality that certainly has not been proven to the standard of professional research.

1. Two black men are shot in Louisiana and Minnesota by white police officers under what can charitably be called "questionable circumstances."

2. In Dallas, a black man, armed with (among other things) a high-powered "military style" rifle, set out to kill white police officers, and indeed did so, five of such being killed (and several others, and some civilians, being wounded).

3. The shooter is killed by the Dallas Police Department.

Now we have in this forum an outpouring (to say the very least) of outrage that the shooter was killed tactically by the police rather than being "cornered" in the multi-floor open-wall parking garage in downtown Dallas until, in perhaps two to four days, he would pass out from thirst or hunger and then be captured by police so he could be made subject to a court of competent jurisdiction.

The outrage seems to be amplified by the fact that the killing of the shooter was done by what seems to be (at least in this context) a "novel" means.

As the Cherokee would say,. "That is all I have to say now."

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Let me see if I can summarize the story here. I will in some cases imply a causality that certainly has not been proven to the standard of professional research.

1. Two black men are shot in Louisiana and Minnesota by white police officers under what can charitably be called "questionable circumstances."

2. In Dallas, a white man, armed with (among other things) a high-powered "military style" rifle, set out to kill white police officers, and indeed did so, five of such being killed (and several others, and some civilians, being wounded).

3. The shooter is killed by the Dallas Police Department.

Now we have in this forum an outpouring (to say the very least) of outrage that the shooter was killed tactically by the police rather than being "cornered" in the multi-floor open-wall parking garage in downtown Dallas until, in perhaps two to four days, he would pass out from thirst or hunger and then be captured by police so he could be made subject to a court of competent jurisdiction.

The outrage seems to be amplified by the fact that the killing of the shooter was done by what seems to be (at least in this context) a "novel" means.

As the Cherokee would say,. "That is all I have to say now."

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

You must have an unusual TV monitor color balance, LOL!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Doug,

You must have an unusual TV monitor color balance, LOL!

Asher

Oops! These binary things often get me confused. I have corrected the original post.

Thanks, and my apologies for the error!

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

The more relevant fact is that we have a tangle of responsibility and negligence. One cannot expect to be able to train 1 million black men in combat, fighting to secure freedom for other folk and then come home to the reality of being less of a valued human being. Surely, it's not surprising that one of them is going to feel justified in taking an heroic suicidal role in holding up a mirror for us to contemplate the vision of our society that he faces.

The exact details of who did what to whom is not so important as the realization that the system needs drastic and deep meaningful surgery for effective change.

That surgery is retrospective zero tolerance and clearing out all those with tainted records. Like gangrene, needs to be cut out before prayers have any meaning!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

That surgery is retrospective zero tolerance . . .

I am always worried about prescriptions of "zero tolerance", mostly because of the difficulty of establishing objective definitions for just what behavior is proscribed.

Police sergeant at the morning briefing:

"The third shift got the guy that held up that bookstore. It was Rodney Walker." Walker is a black fellow.

Officer Bodkin (white): "I'm not surprised it was him".​

Was that "racism" on the part of Officer Bodkin? Should he be discharged?

By the way, would that required the action of a court? Or would the discharge be "extrajudicial"? Perhaps it would be the Chief of Police who would be "obligated" to discharge him.

Now we'll do it another way:

Police sergeant at the morning briefing:

"The third shift got the guy that held up that bookstore. It was Rodney Walker." Walker is a black fellow.

Officer Gutmacher (black): "I'm not surprised it was he".​

And so forth.

So, with regard to "zero tolerance": Don't never say never.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



I am always worried about prescriptions of "zero tolerance", mostly because of the difficulty of establishing objective definitions for just what behavior is proscribed.

Police sergeant at the morning briefing:

"The third shift got the guy that held up that bookstore. It was Rodney Walker." Walker is a black fellow.

Officer Bodkin (white): "I'm not surprised it was him".​

Was that "racism" on the part of Officer Bodkin? Should he be discharged?

By the way, would that required the action of a court? Or would the discharge be "extrajudicial"? Perhaps it would be the Chief of Police who would be "obligated" to discharge him.

Now we'll do it another way:

Police sergeant at the morning briefing:

"The third shift got the guy that held up that bookstore. It was Rodney Walker." Walker is a black fellow.

Officer Gutmacher (black): "I'm not surprised it was he".​

And so forth.

So, with regard to "zero tolerance": Don't never say never.

Best regards,

Doug

That is why it would cost $ billions but it would be worth it!

They could achieve this in all sorts of ways. For example raise the salaries of officers on patrol but put a one with a poor record on a desk job or negotiate an early retirement. I have no doubt that a uniform and fair solution could be worked out.

The bottom line is that there is zero tolerance going forward. Anyone who is impulsive in dealing with other races and violent stand offs has no place in the police force today!

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

The bottom line is that there is zero tolerance going forward.

I'm afraid you missed my real point.

Best regards,

Doug

 

[Asher Kelman]

Hi, Asher,



I'm afraid you missed my real point.

Best regards,

Doug

Explain please.

You find it too difficult to set out parameters by which impulse driven and racist officers will be weeded out?

Or you just don't like the idea?

Asher

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Asher,

Explain please.

You find it too difficult to set out parameters by which impulse driven and racist officers will be weeded out?

Or you just don't like the idea?

I like the idea fine, just like I like the idea that in some online group I might like to have expelled all those who don't "deserve to be there".

My concern is that once we adopt the rubric of "zero tolerance", we must be prepared to have absolutely clear and tight objective definitions for what behavior is not allowed.

Now for some things, it seems as if that is easy. One is not permitted to bring a cello (openly or concealed) into the "Fretted Music Society" meetings.

But here I am afraid the issues far less clear. We are speaking of police officers not doing things that many of us think are not proper, but some think otherwise.

It might seem to us (who were, by the way, not there) that in the two recent notorious cases, the issues are clear. But you will soon hear from the attorneys for the officers that they are not.

I am reminded of Will's discussions of concert venues that do not allow one to bring in <some description of a class of camera>.

Best regards,

Doug

Doug